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[edit] Infoboxes

An issue has arisen with infoboxes, and clause 5 of this guideline is being used to support it, namely: "5) When discussing specifically the administrative area of Judea and Samaria, in the context of that administration and not merely referring to a specific land area, the term "the administrative area of Judea and Samaria" or Judea and Samaria Area (with the last word capitalised as here) may be used."

The Israeli municipality infobox is being used on articles about Israeli settlements in the West Bank, which Israelis call the "Judea and Samaria" district. See here for an example. The infobox makes no mention that the settlements are regarded as illegal all over the world, including by the United Nations. When I tried to remove the "Judea and Samaria" parameter, I was reverted and referred to this guideline.

Should we not require infoboxes that mention "Judea and Samaria" to contain a parameter about the disputed nature of the district, and which make clear to readers that everyone outside Israel calls it the West Bank? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 19:43, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I suppose the question whether clause 6 applies to clause 5 i.e. "The terms "Samaria" or "Judea" cannot be used without qualification in the NPOV neutral voice; for example, it cannot be asserted without qualification that a place is "in Samaria"." I would say it does, because NPOV is a fundamental Wikipedia principle that can't be overridden, but it would be good to have the guideline explicitly express that. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 19:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I've edited the guideline to make clear that clause 5 is subject to clause 6. [1] SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 19:54, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Slim, I dont think this is an issue and I also think you should revert your edit as those guidelines were the result of some very long discussions and should have consensus before changing. But to the point: so long as we do not say that the Judea and Samaria Area is in Israel it should be fine. By saying a given locality is in the J+S Area we are only saying that it is administered by Israel, not that it is in Israel. I dont see the problem here. nableezy - 20:13, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The infobox doesn't say it's administered by Israel. We have to look at this from the perspective of a regular reader, rather than as Wikipedians who know about the background discussions. They simply see that Town X is in "Judea and Samaria," with no mention that other people regard that as "Palestine," or "the West Bank," or "the Palestinian territories." That means the infobox is expressing a POV as though it's NPOV, and a tiny-minority POV at that. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 20:18, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, bear in mind, Nableezy, that the infobox did say until you objected that it was in Israel, and now says nothing about which country it's in, because Ynhockey decided that parameter was "redundant," i.e. it's assumed it's in Israel because it's part of the Israeli municipality infobox. So the strong implication of using "Judea and Samaria" in that infobox without qualification is (a) this place is in Israel, and (b) J and S is the undisputed name of an undisputed district. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 20:21, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

But it is not a POV that it is in the administrative district of J+S Area. That is just a fact. Like it is a fact that it is in occupied territory. Now one of those facts does not show in the page, and that is a problem, but I dont like the idea of hiding some facts because others are hidden. But I am not exactly a J+Ser so I dont plan on arguing the point, but it does seem like an issue is being created where none exists. nableezy - 20:27, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is a fact. It is also a fact that it's in the West Bank. The former fact, supported by a tiny-minority of people, should not be included in an infobox without the latter fact, supported by the rest of the world, being included too. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 21:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh dear. It needs to be West Bank somewhere prominently at the top of where it is listed. Many regions have administrative government levels under that, where various authorities are listed at the various government levels. I am not familiar with administrative levels of israeli and palestinian government to comment yet. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Can you say whether you would oppose this edit to the guideline? That would make sure that, when we say something is in the district of Judea and Samaria, we also make clear that this is a widely disputed district.

Otherwise, imagine this: that during the 1990 invasion and takeover of Kuwait by Iraq, Iraqi supporters created a Wikipedia infox box about Iraqi towns, naming parts of Kuwait as an Iraqi administrative district, but without mentioning that no one else in the world regarded Kuwait as part of Iraq. We would never allow that.

Yet it's what we're currently doing with the Israeli muncipality boxes. We are allowing areas under illegal occupation, according to the United Nations, to be renamed without qualification as Israeli administrative districts. In other words, we are taking sides. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 22:14, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

No, that was a good clause to place in the guideline. I just need to get my head around infoboxes etc. I have not edited much on geopolitics on WP. Using a name does not equate support - e.g. Burma/Myanmar. These situations get very murky very quickly. For instance, Hebron is almost universally referred to by its hebrew rather than arabic name al khalil. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:58, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to Coppertwig graciously providing some coding help the template will now auto-populate a field "Region" with "West Bank" if the district is defined as Judea and Samaria Area. That should remove any ambiguity. nableezy - 00:12, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for solving that. East Jerusalem and the other West Bank areas annexed into Jerusalem District and the Golan will be more complicated as there isn't a mechanical way of recognising them.--Peter cohen (talk) 09:39, 22 August 2009 (UTC)