The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Looking back, it seems that the whole reason reviews were included in the album infobox in the first place was to give people a quick list of links where they could find them. Obviously this provided to be flawed as there are reviews only available in print, and now we're at the point where all reviews in the infobox need to be inline cited as opposed to bare links. Basically, do we need reviews in the infobox at all? The original purpose of including them is no longer relevant, and it's material that doesn't lend itself to infobox summaries (stars and number rankings: fine; anything else, we have to resort to the dreaded "favorable" and "unfavorable" terminology, which can be pretty subjective). Note that the song/single infoboxes stopped including a review field years ago, and films have never used one. WesleyDodds (talk) 14:11, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree, always in favor of uncluttering (is that a word?) the infobox. 'Reviews' sections within the body of the article can be added to individual pages at the discretion of the editors. J04n(talk page) 14:30, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Heh, somewhere in the archives are two or three suggestions from me to scrap "favorable" and "unfavorable" as too subjective, without ever achieving consensus to drop 'em. So you certainly have my support on that point. However I think links to online reviews are still convenient, whether they have inbuilt star/number ratings or not, as well as print ones with ratings that are cited. I agree there's no point including print reviews that have no star/number rating because without that objective indication of their gist they serve no purpose. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:50, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I'd support removing them as well only to inspire users to start writing sections in albums articles rather than simple stubs. I'd get much more user input on these review systems as if we remove this, there's going to be a huge backlash from several users who do not follow this page. Gah! Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:25, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

This idea of getting rid of the "professional reviews" field in the infobox is something I've been mulling over for a while, but figured it probably didn't have a snowball's chance, so thanks Wesley for bringing it up. I agree that it's not the type of information that lends itself to an infobox presentation, especially now that we're not even providing the direct links to the reviews in the box itself (since we switched to inline citations). This makes it, in reality, a "professional ratings" field rather than a reviews field. I've also noticed, as Wesley points out, that there's no other infobox for creative works that uses such a field to attempt to summarize critical reception. Check {{Infobox film}}, {{Infobox single}}, {{Infobox VG}}, and {{Infobox book}}, among others: all of these are creative works that are typically reviewed by critics and given ratings, yet none of the related projects felt it necessary to list reviews in their infoboxes. I think it makes sense not to, as critical reaction is something that really has to be explained in prose to be given proper context, which can only be done in body paragraphs. Now undoubtedly there would be a major backlash if we were to remove the field, as there are a great many editors who care only about the infobox and its pretty, pretty colors (and would like to see articles reduced to nothing but infoboxes, but I digress), so a thought I had on how to meet this halfway is to create a "critical ratings" box to accompany reception sections. This would be a 2-colum table box that could be placed alongside body paragraphs in a reception section and contain a column listing the source of criticism and a parallel column with the rating assigned by that source. This way we still have that "at-a-glance" ratings summary that the infobox currently contains, but it gets placed immediately alongside the contextualizing prose. And it helps cut down on the backlash. Thoughts? --IllaZilla (talk) 15:56, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Are you thinking of something like template:VG reviews? Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:06, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't see a strong case for removing them, but would be happy for them to be listed in a separate box as suggested above. I think it should be preferred to have a 'Critical reception' section summarizing the reviews and citing them as sources, but this takes more time than simply adding them as they are now, and isn't going to happen overnight. Wholesale removal of the reviews, rather than relocation, would be counterproductive, since these are often the best available sources for album articles. If we want to migrate to a different structure over time, fine, but let's not remove them simply to try and force this. --Michig (talk) 18:20, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Andrzejbanas, I think {{VG reviews}} is a perfect model and exactly what I'm aiming at. Perhaps it could be converted into an all-purpose reviews template and used for video games, albums, and other works as well. Michig, if we remove the field then the current reviews in the infoboxes will simply stop being displayed, but they won't be lost (the text will still be there in the edit window). Therefore I think the most efficient method for encouraging editors to write reception sections, or to move the review scores to such sections, would be to have a bot leave a boilerplate message on the talk pages of all articles using the template (yes I realize that is a massive amount of pages, but it's an effective way to communicate this change to the community at large). --IllaZilla (talk) 19:28, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I've placed a notice on the template's talk page directing editors to this discussion, hoping we can get more input. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:29, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think non-display would be appropriate. Where the reviews are cited as references I presume it would leave references with no context at the end of the article, and where reviews are simply linked they would disappear to the reader. If all reviews were removed or even just 'hidden' we would end up with a flood of album articles being PRODded or taken to AFD by editors who require little excuse to do so. If someone could write a bot to relocate them to a separate box that would be far preferable, or failing that just let it happen over time (as is happening with the shift from links to citations for reviews). I'd rather have a table of reviews with no commentary for a while than no reviews until a critical reception section is added, which could be years for some articles. --Michig (talk) 20:57, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Michig has hit the nail on the head. I agree that removing them completely now would only be detrimental, and besides, there's no compelling reason for removing them, other than "we don't like them and they're not necessary". Reviews in the infobox have worked fine since their inception, and I use them for quick access to reviews for articles I'm working on. This field has attracted much less controversy than other fields that still exist, such as the genre, and, just like the genre, critical reception of an album is a key part of its article and should be represented in some way in the infobox. I think the idea of separating them into a separate box would work, though, only if it's absolutely necessary to get the reviews out of the infobox. Timmeh 21:07, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I see problems with the review field fairly regularly, albeit much less frequently than with genre. Arguments about how many reviews to include, or which ones to cut when there get to be too many, SPAs removing negative reviews from infoboxes about albums they really like (or just going around plugging in reviews from a single website in what amounts to an ad campaign), arguments about whether or not to use star scales, arguments about "favorable" vs. "unfavorable", etc. I think the core question is: By putting reviews in the infobox, what are we really trying to accomplish? Are we attempting to sum up the critical reception in a succinct way? Is this really something that can be accomplished with a bullet-pointed list of ratings? I don't think it can: critical reaction has to be contextualized and explained using prose, and our end goal (whether we decide to keep the reviews in the infobox or not) is to have articles with well-written sections detailing critical reaction to the albums.

We're not Metacritic or Rotten Tomatoes, who only provide scores, brief excerpts of reviews, and nothing else. We're an encyclopedia, and we want our articles to develop into having "brilliant prose". While having the reviews in the infobox does allow us to easily pull from them in order to build such sections, it's not like removing the field would change that. As I said earlier, the urls will still be there in the edit window, they just won't display, so editors "in the know" will still be able to find them and use them for sourcing. It'd be preferable to have a bot move them into a ratings box or something, but that might prove complex. Any articles that get PRODed or AfD'd simply because the reviews disappear from the infobox should be easy fixes, as these sources obviously still exist and thus it can be easily shown that they pass WP:N & WP:V. Anyway, an article that relies solely on its infobox review links to keep it alive obviously needs the kind of work that a prod or AfD would generate. Unfortunately, Michig, I don't think it's feasible to "let it happen over time": if we remove the field, then all articles will stop displaying it within a few days. If we don't remove the field, then editors are going to keep using it in new articles, and keep adding to it in existing articles, and thus the problem will never solve itself. If it takes years for some articles to catch up and start reception sections, so what? It's not like we have a deadline. --IllaZilla (talk) 00:12, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I find the statement "an article that relies solely on its infobox review links to keep it alive obviously needs the kind of work that a prod or AfD would generate" very worrying. PROD and AFD are NOT for cleanup, and they shouuldn't be used to prompt improvement to articles. I'm sure a lot of album articles would be missed at PROD and deleted before the reviews could be worked into a prose section.--Michig (talk) 07:33, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

←I'm OK with removing them. They are essentially a web directory, which isn't really our job. They give undue weight to online reviews over "high-quality" print reviews, when we should be doing the opposite. They're magnets for good-faith links to no-name sites, which forces us to be the bad guys to users who are trying to contribute positively. They boil down nuanced reviews to point scores, which is not particularly encyclopedic. They're all formatted wrong, and no one really likes the updated format we added to the infobox documentation (I don't even particularly like it).

On the other hand, it's a useful feature and a huge number of users rely on it. They're almost always the first think I look at when I'm reading about albums. Removing them wholesale is a pretty harsh way to do this, and the backlash will be immense.

I'd be happy with some summary, like VG reviews, that could go later in the article. I like that format and it might encourage people to actually write articles about albums (imagine that!) instead of settling for an infobox and a track list. IllaZilla's argument is pretty convincing. —Gendralman (talk) 01:44, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I am fine either way. There are lots of infoboxes that contain duplicative info--its their nature to just have an executive summary of the longer text. But I don't have strong feelings on this.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:58, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

After originally arriving here with a backlash-kind of attitude, my opinion has been turned. Which is a good sign for fighting off the backlash in the future. I completely agree with what IllaZilla, Gendralman and especially Timmeh said. As much as I think removing these would definitely be detrimental to lesser articles, it is something which could/should in the end be a positive move for improving prose. I will also put a big support behind the VG reviews idea, this would sum things up nicely and avoid us having to change our current methods of writing reception sections, of which I know almost everyone takes the reviews from the infobox to build. I do think if we're going to go ahead with removing the field, we need a solid reason/statement behind this consensus. kiac. (talk-contrib) 02:20, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I'd favor leaving things the way they are, but if reviews are removed from the album infobox, either by a bot or by editors, I really feel quite strongly that they should be moved to a {{VG reviews}} type of template, rather than just being deleted from the articles. Otherwise you'd be removing hugely important reliable, independent references from thousands of articles. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 02:29, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

As others have mentioned above, the idea is removing the review field in the infobox would simply emphasize the need for discussion of critical reception in the prose. All Good and Featured articles do this anyway, and oftentimes the infobox simply repeats citations that appear later in the article. We definitely don't need a separate "reviews" template; this is information that belongs in the prose. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:25, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Also the single infobox has a deactiveted review field that still lists single reviews, even if they don't show up live. Simply click the edit link and you'll find the reviews. So if we deactivated the reviews field for the album infobox, the field would no longer show up on the page, but all the links/citations would still be there for edtiors to then transfer to the prose. It would be a lot of work, but then again there are many album articles that still haven't switched to inline citations for the field. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:30, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

It seems that some editors in this discussion are saying that it would be reasonable to simply have the infobox stop displaying the reviews, without either moving them to a new template or moving them to a Notes or References section. I strongly disagree. Like I said before, you'd be removing vitally important, independent, reliable references, or at any rate reducing them to markup comments, rendering them invisible to readers, and leaving editors with the gargantuan chore of manually reworking the articles. Yes, adding a prose section about critical reception, with referenced quotes, is the ideal, but the infobox reviews don't stop anyone from doing that. On the contrary, they provide a handy way to add references that can then later be reworked and expanded upon. I think reducing them to markup comments in thousands and thousands of articles would be a huge mistake. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 03:56, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

All the refs and links would still be there for editors to work into the prose. They would just be invisible until someone got around to working them into the prose. It is a garantuan chore if you consider every single article, but most articled require some sort of cleanup anyway, and in fact it would encourage the development of article sections for those stub pages that only have a track listing and infobox. In the case of pages on my watchlist, most of the reviews are discussed in the body anyways, so nothing is actually lost. WesleyDodds (talk) 05:36, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm with Mudwater on this. Also, as someone who regularly cleans up after amatuer editors, I'm wondering do we really want reception sections that read "Rolling Stone gave it a 5/5, NME a 4/5, Spin a 3/5, Drowned in Sound a 8.5/10"? I suppose it may be a little simpler to expand upon, but it would be very difficult to change an entire Wiki-culture that has always supported people just adding reviews and scores. Don't expect your average editor to be willing to put more effort in. kiac. (talk-contrib) 04:26, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

"I'm wondering do we really want reception sections that read "Rolling Stone gave it a 5/5, NME a 4/5, Spin a 3/5, Drowned in Sound a 8.5/10"?" Well, obviously they would be better written than that. See In Utero or any other FA albuma article for comparison. WesleyDodds (talk) 05:24, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Then that's fine. I see so much vandalism with users who just add reviews to the infobox which are often either incorrect or very biased. Encouraging prose would reduce vandalism here as well. Andrzejbanas (talk) 04:52, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Kiac, that's why I think switching to a {{VG reviews}}-type template would be helpful. I think there's certainly a place for listing critics' ratings, I just don't think the infobox is that place. Obviously we have engendered a Wiki-culture that likes having the ratings in a convenient, table-style format; the use of a ratings template would allow that practice to continue while encouraging it to be located next to explanatory prose, and also avoid us having to mention the ratings in the prose itself (with the repetetive "source x gave the album y stars" type of thing). I'd be in support of a bot simply moving the ratings out of the infobox & into such a template, but I have no idea how technically feasible that idea is. --IllaZilla (talk) 04:57, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Personally I really don't like that video game reviews template. For one, there's far more music press media than video game press, so fashioning such a template for each article would be far more challenging. The goal isn't to make a directory of reviews; the goal is provide a concise summation of critical reception. This can be done in prose, and I for one always value prose over tables, because then it's easier to provide context. WesleyDodds (talk) 05:29, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I've just done a bit of testing to see what these different scenarios might look like, and what the immediate effects of removing the field might be. I used In Utero as my test case.

• Here's the article as it currently appears, with the reviews in the infobox.
• Here's what would likely happen if we simply removed the field. I simulated this by commenting out the reviews (<!-- -->). As you can see it does break a few of the references (#s 71-74), but I believe that the AnomieBOT would correct this error automatically by coming along & moving the orphaned refs out of the template (as I've seen it do many times).
• Finally, here's what it looks like with the reviews moved out of the infobox and into a table within the Reception section (I used {{VG reviews}}, which would only support 8 reviews as it's formatted for common video game sources, but you get the idea).

Personally I like the last option the best, with the ratings right there alongside the Reception prose. Obviously this involves physically moving the text from the infobox into the new template, which could certainly be done manually or possibly by bot. As I said, I think the AnomieBOT would come along to save any orphaned refs if the field were removed, so the new table could be added at editors' leisure. --IllaZilla (talk) 05:46, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Also Wes, I don't think we need to create as complex a box as {{VG reviews}}. For whatever reason, they decided to create custom fields for all of the most common video game sources. While we certainly could do that, I was picturing a more generic setup (basically just using their "custom reviewers" fields). --IllaZilla (talk) 05:49, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I really don't think a review template is necessary, since critical information is best conveyed in prose. Really, it's what the reviewers say that's more important, not the ratings or the stars, especially because those are often not indicative of the reviews themselves (for example, the writers never pick the rating numbers for Rolling Stone reviews; editors do that). And of course, there are the reviewers who don't provide any sort of metric, instead just providing prose reviews. Summarizing critical reception just isn't something that works well in a table or infobox format, which is part of the reason I propose deactivating the field in the Album template. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:02, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

@WesleyDodds - My point was obviously not insinuating that every article would turn out that way (complete summarisation of ratings and reviews in prose), the well written ones, such as FA class articles, would not change. However, the stubs, the poorly written 'amatuerly'-run articles, would suffer greatly. You cannot seriously expect every article to be written like In Utero], that's completely unfeasible. I don't think our aim should be to accomodate FA articles, it should be to accomodate the majority, the articles which do suffer from having minimal reliable sources and require these reviews as a reassurance of notability.

I prefer the third option, there needs to be some kind of summary because we can't expect well written prose to just pop up in every article. kiac. (talk-contrib) 08:44, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how this would effect article notability at all, Michig. If there are reviews, they would still invisible on the page in the infobox field; they would just need to be integrated into the prose. There's no reason articles should even make it to AfD. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:45, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that is true for current and past articles with the review field already filled, and made invisible. But what about in the future, when there is no field to add these reviews to? Editors will obviously just not add the links to articles at all (in some situations, at least), thus making notability an issue and perhaps bringing up AfDs which would not have been contemplated if there were a couple of reviews present. Think about when we had the genres removed, was there really a massive income of style and genre sections? Not that I recall. kiac. (talk-contrib) 11:57, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

[Reply to WesleyDodds] It wouldn't affect the notability of the album, but for some it would affect the perceived notability, and too many editors see an article without references (lets face it they're not going to go into edit mode and check for 'hidden' reviews) and slap a CSD/PROD or AFD tag on it. There are a hell of a lot of articles already that get to AFD/PROD that shouldn't get there, which soaks up an awaful lot of editor-time. Also, it's going to take a lot of time to migrate a list of reviews to a critical reception section, and there are also lots of deletion-happy editors who would try to get articles deleted if this hasn't been done in what for them would seem like a reasonable time period. If consensus is to not have reviews in the infobox, how about having a new version of Template:Infobox without the reviews section, which can be used in articles when the reviews have been worked into prose/moved to a separate table, but leave the existing one there for the rest with a maintenance tag on the article to indicate that the existing infobox is deprecated and to prompt editors to undertake the migration? It isn't feasible to make such a big change overnight, and simply removing or hiding reviews to try to prompt this change deson't seem particularly constructive.--Michig (talk) 19:12, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

In the future? They simply should be added to the prose. That's supposed to be the priority in the first place. I mean, when I work on an album article, my first thought isn't "I need to put some reviews in the infobox", it's "I need to cover all the details of the album in the prose." Infoboxes aren't substitutes for articles, even though you occasionally see a stub page that's only one sentence yet has a completely filled-out infobox. The absence of reviews in an infobox is no excuse for there to be no critical commentary discussion in the articles. The point of an infobox is to sumamrize the article, anyways. WesleyDodds (talk) 12:03, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

If an album article turns up at AfD which doesn't contain a section with reviews even though the album has been reviewed, then the nominator hasn't followed WP:BEFORE and found the reviews. It's possible the reviews may only be in print publications, but I wouldn't have thought there would be that many. --JD554 (talk) 12:18, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

For pre-2000 albums, there are a hell of a lot where print reviews exist but there's little or nothing online.--Michig (talk) 19:12, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

That's why I love libraries, Rock's Back Pages, and eBay. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:56, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes but that's you Wes, you're a great editor. Not everyone is going to follow that, the majority will simply not add the links and leave. I agree JD, they should be finding online reviews before nominating, and I do believe a possible increase in (perhaps unjustified) AfDs is no reason to halt the course of this discussion. I simply think it is an issue that may need to be tackled in the future and needs to be prepared for, or at least brought up for consideration. kiac. (talk-contrib) 12:57, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I've read through this whole thread and now feel stronger that the reviews should be removed. This will be the perfect opportunity to expand stubs. I don't think that folks that start stub articles are too lazy or incapable of writing up critical review sections, they just don't know to do it (they're already listed in the infobox). Folks would love "their" articles to be longer with more substance but there is just nothing else from them to write. Not every album has had the volumes written about it as In Utero has, but the majority will have been reviewed somewhere (or they probably won't last long here) so it's a kick-off point for expansion. I'm not yet sold on the video game style table of reviews either. I see no significance in the rating, so it becomes just an 'external links' section. Why not just move the unincorporated reviews to 'external links' then move on from there?J04n(talk page) 13:10, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

IP Here- I think this discussion gives the average wikipedian a little too much credit. The opportunity is already there to provide a reception section, but in many cases it doesn't happen. Most people aren't out to make an FA- they're out to throw in their two cents, or create an article of their interest. That's why we have so many stubs. The review section is a great at a glance tool. You have to look at where most wikipedians are making their contributions to show an album's reception- it's the infobox. I'm confident that although some articles may move from B-class to A, many, many more are going to simply become less informative.136.181.195.10 (talk) 20:48, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Simply, removing the listed reviews completely would not help editors or the articles in any way. It would not encourage editors to write prose about the reviews, especially since many review sources are used to create such sections. And what problems is the current setup causing that don't occur in other parts of the infobox or article? Conflicts in opinion and editing are a given on a site like this; you're not going to eliminate them by removing whole fields of an infobox.

According to the MOS, infoboxes are meant to "present summary information about an article's subject". Omitting such a large part of a subject as critical reception would make the infobox no longer a complete summary of the article. I would support IllaZilla's separate box proposal, but only if some aspect of critical reception, maybe the average of all the ratings or a simple "unfavorable", "favorable", or "mixed", is left in the infobox to represent the album's reception. Timmeh 22:06, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

But we're not Metacritic, and selecting favorable for overall reception would surely just attract an insane amount of disputes. I do see your point in summarising in the infobox, it is something that shouldn't be eliminated completely. kiac. (talk-contrib) 00:42, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Why not? There's no other infobox for a creative work that tries to summarize critical reaction in its infobox, and they all do just dandy without it. Would any of our quality articles be hurt by not having something in the infobox that tries to reduce critics' analyses and opinions to bullet points? It's just not the type of information that lends itself to infobox presentation, any more than you can try to reduce an album's inspiration, its writing process, or its marketing and promotion to a bullet-point blurb. This is essentially the same argument I had for supporting the removal of genre back when that brouhaha happened: infoboxes are for simple, black & white facts. Release date, writers' names, record label, etc...these are all simple facts that can be presented in an infobox without any real problems. But attempting to summarize critical reaction? That's something that simply has to be done in prose, and only in prose. The only real reason I support creating a ratings box is because ratings are, in a way, still black & white and lend themselves more easily to a table presentation that could pair nicely next to the prose. --IllaZilla (talk) 01:02, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. Now that I think about it more and consider what exactly infoboxes should be used for and are in other areas of the project, you do have a strong argument, and my whole perspective on this seems to have just changed (oddly). Such things as clear facts and statistics are what belong in the infobox, not opinions, and summarizing is for the lead section of an article. I think your separate box proposal is a good idea, but I would strongly oppose removing the ratings altogether, as they are a useful article-building tool and quick reference. Timmeh 01:38, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Ratings can be discussed in the prose; the abscene of an infobox or template containing them does not mean they would be excluded from articles. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:39, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Reviews In Infoboxes - Continued

Let's start a new header, as I have a fresh argument (I hope).

After looking at reviews added to The Fame Monster earlier this evening, I attempted to change them to the style that I know of. Using an example from the page, it reads:

• Allmusic link

After being berated for it (not really, just seemed like it at first), I came to WP:ALBUM itself and was shocked to find that the new "standard" is:

• Allmusic ^[1]

Look at the source code for the two, non-wikified here:

*[[Allmusic]] {{Rating|3.5|5}} [http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:3jfuxzualdse link]

* [[Allmusic]] {{Rating|3.5|5}}<ref>{{cite web|url=http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:3jfuxzualdse|work=Allmusic|title=Overview: The Fame Monster|accessdate=November 23, 2009}}</ref>

One is cluttered and involves having to fill out a reference tag with all sorts of information, something that can be done completely wrong by many editors (I still make mistakes sometimes even on simple ones that I then edit immediately to fix). I used the shortest one I could find; try putting the review source for The Independent for that album; the citation is four lines long in the damn infobox. Also, the more cluttered version is the LEAST user-friendly option. For a paperback encyclopedia I'd go to read in the library, I would expect an infobox to contain sources because I can't just touch the review details and automatically flip the pages to that article in a completely different book. In an online encyclopedia...forgive me, but it's complete bull****. Instead of directly linking from the infobox, we clutter it up with a four-line citation and at the exact same time make it less user-friendly. I personally would open new tabs via each "link" in the infobox if I want to read reviews; now each new tab would be another copy of the article, and I'd have to go and individually click every single reference at the bottom of the page (honestly, I don't care when it was accessed).

Leave sourcing to the article; don't clutter the infobox with it when it's not necessary and completely user-unfriendly. If this is going to be the standard, I'd rather remove all reviews from the infobox and give them their own section; at least THAT way, the sourcing belongs there. Sources DO NOT belong in an infobox except in extremely rare cases.

That's my piece, feel free to discuss. CycloneGU (talk) 04:45, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Citations don't have to be four lines long. You simply just condense them. "Title". Publisher. http://www.url.com. Retrieved 2009-11-25.  Simple, nearly on one line and easy. I believe having citations instead of links is now non-negotiable, we're not making it back into a link directory, pointless. There is also actually a bot that removes citations from infoboxes, if they are used in the article. So if you are doing what you are suppose to be, as is being discussed above, and writing a reception section to accompany the reviews in the infobox, then the bot would come along and move the refs to the reception section. kiac. (talk-contrib) 05:04, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Interesting question, then. Some of those numbered bullets ARE used in the article. I changed all of them to the format I learned to do (now a year ago or so, I see now that it was changed when I first added the Charts section in May and I never saw it). Some...are not. This would lead to having inconsistency in the infobox. It also leads to inconvenience to the user in another way; if I want to read the AllMusic review and it's sourced somewhere in the article, I now have no link from the infobox. I use two main things most of the time in an article: the infobox and the track listing. The rest of any music article has varied usage from myself; in fact, I sometimes just go straight to the track listing from the infobox, then close the article.

We need to maintain consistency, but keep the infobox user-friendly. How about where multiple reviews are given (mostly new releases), we simply just leave ratings in the infobox and then put in Reviews? Those articles for newer albums tend to have people interested in what others think about the album (The Fame Monster being an example). That way, we don't have to limit ourselves to ten reviews in the infobox and can instead present a fair and balanced review in a separate section where an infobox might favour one side or the other. I'd still be in favour of axeing it completely from the infobox as not having a list of reviews right next to the ratings serves absolutely no purpose to a user.

As for the "old style" being non-negotiable...it's always negotiable. Some just prefer not to discuss it because they themselves don't prefer it. I still consider having a review link much more user-friendly, and I thought we wanted a user-friendly encyclopedia. I've never been told my method was wrong; this is the first time I've been told such. (This also is not directed at that person...simply a general statement.) I'm sure I'm not the only one who prefers my method. CycloneGU (talk) 05:16, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I realize that you only used The Fame Monster as an example but it isn't a review, it's a rating. There is no review on that page and the infobox section says 'Professional reviews'. If that were added to a page on my watchlist I would revert saying that there is no review there. Now in the vast majority of cases there is a review there (I expected one when I clicked), and it is by a writer. If we are going to be citing that writer's work we should be naming that writer, hence the need for the inline citation. I apologize for wandering away from the topic but as someone who has been published in the real world (not saying this is a 'fake world' don't jump on me) I feel strongly about it. BTW User:Mr.Z-man/refToolbar makes referencing extremely easy. Back on topic: I still don't see why anyone cares about the rating. This magazine gave it a 4/5, this website a 6/10, how is that important? Think of your favorite album, I bet you know when it was released, who produced it, where it was recorded, but do you know (or care) what Allmusic rated it? Timmeh, you said that the ratings "are a useful article-building tool and quick reference", did you really mean the ratings, the reviews, or just the convenient link to Allmusic? I admit that I use them as a useful link and sulk when I have to scroll all the way to the references for the link, but that is what you have to do for every other page on Wikipedia. Other than that I have no strong feelings. J04n(talk page) 05:42, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Quoting "Back on topic: I still don't see why anyone cares about the rating." - I fully agree. The only use I'd have for it is if it's a newer artist and I'm getting a first opinion from someone. Thing is, a newspaper editorial is by a person. Check out Waking Up the Neighbours (which still uses the linklist, mind, but that's not why I'm linking it). A Bryan Adams album with his most popular song ever ("Everything I Do I Do It For You") got a bomb from a very critical reviewer who gave him low ratings on three successive albums (Reckless was also included, home of "Summer of '69"), all of which were the ones that launched him into the mainstream media. This guy didn't review another Adams album after this one. So yeah...I fully agree, rating means nothing; music and a person's own attitude to it does. A 5/5 rap album still scores a 0 to me; I don't listen to it. Hence, let's go back to the other discussion: why the heck is this still in the infobox?

On another note, while I favour removing this from the infobox, this will raise a LOT of article issues. Many people link to the AllMusic listing and then don't place any reference on the track listing. Removing the infobox will lead to a lot of unsourced information claims. We'll have to immediately categorize all album articles and each select a group to comb through for such problems. Would a source elsewhere in the article alleviate this without putting it in the listing itself? Or just a "See also" at the end? CycloneGU (talk) 06:01, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

So someone added a bit of POV to an article, what's new? It happens everywhere and I'm sure it would be a lot more common if a bias editor like that was to write an entire section about Mr Adams. As mentioned above, if the field was removed, the information would still be there, including references, invisible but still present on the editing page. And as reply to the earlier post about using direct links, no we don't discuss it now because it was settled and we've moved on. It's not even debatable that simple direct links attract WP:Link rot and will cause problems down the road, it is also against Wikipedia's policies to have citations as direct links for the sole reason of convenience (one click instead of two...?) and thus creating a link directory. Lastly, your biff with clutter could only be exacerbated by direct links... which take up more room in the visible article than citations. Let's ignore the editing page for now, which is really not all that difficult to navigate and shouldn't be grounds for any influence on this discussion. Oh and my tip of the day, don't mess with Legolas' Lady Gaga pages! :p kiac. (talk-contrib) 06:22, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

note to self: do not edit any Lady Gaga pages. J04n(talk page) 19:52, 25 November 2009 (UTC) :)

Note to self: Revert bad edits only...post requested changes at Legolas' page...*LOL* CycloneGU (talk) 03:32, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Reviews in infobox: next step

I think we're of general consensus now that we should remove the reviews (The issue of a separate review infobox seems less decided at this point, but that can become a separate discussion). However, I suggest someone contact all the relevant music WikiProjects about this discussion so they know what's up. Nothing cause more gnashing of teeth on Wikipedia than having a change implemented that not everyone has been privy to. WesleyDodds (talk) 01:04, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

No, I don't think that's the case. There is definitely significant opposition to complete removal. Some only support removal if the reviews are also put in a separate box, and a few others don't support any change to the current setup. In addition, this discussion has only been going on for three days, one of which is a big holiday for many. Give it a full week before even trying to figure out whether or not we have consensus. Timmeh 01:19, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I didn't mean "implement this right away". I meant the shape of consensus was forming enough following an idle thought by myself that definitely merits presenting it to others for serious discussion/polling. Hence "the next step". WesleyDodds (talk) 11:37, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed with Timmeh. Definitely inform as many projects as possible (and wait a week or two) before going anywhere with this. —Gendralman (talk) 01:23, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I've dropped a note at the Music project to see if anyone there wants to contribute to this discussion. --IllaZilla (talk) 02:11, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

How about the subprojects (genre and band WikiProjects)? That's what I primarily meant; the overarching Music WikiProject seems kind of low-traffic compared to some of the others. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:37, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment from the music project (actually just from me but I saw Zilla's post over there): I would agree with what many people seem to have already stated. It seems like moving a chart-like display of the major reviews into a body section from the infobox is the most reasonable idea. However, we shouldn't just block the section from the infobox to provoke edits to move them. I don't know the best way to do this, but I propose that any new infobox uses should be strongly encouraged to include review information in the body instead. Collaboration should also be encouraged to start making the same changes on the already-existing infoboxes. Since most of the new articles will be using the new guideline, and work will be going on to fix the old articles, I think that eventually the changes will pick up speed. I think it would take a while, but be relatively unobtrusive. I just don't know how to actually get people to do the change on the new infoboxes, beyond some kind of notice on Template:Infobox album/doc. —Akrabbim^talk 04:53, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

It wouldn't be "block the section from the infobox to provoke edits to move them". It would be deactivating the field for reasons established above. Editors moving the reviews to the article body would be a by-product, and in some articles wouldn't be necessary since they are already there. The basic idea is "we don't need this in the infobox". WesleyDodds (talk) 11:37, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I really like having the reviews easily accessible, as for me, it's one of the most useful aspects of the wiki album pages. I really don't like the new style of moving the links to footnotes for two reasons: 1) some album articles are really long and its a pain to scroll down the bottom to click a link that should be readily available from the infobox (it's only an arrow afterall), and 2) the infobox clearly shows what publication the review is from, while the footnotes do not (and the review footnotes are mixed in with other footnotes). This makes the new setup quite cumbersome for someone who wants to quickly identify the critical reaction from key publications and read their articles. My preference is listings in the infobox with links. I understand some people don't like this and have proposed moving reviews into the article. I think that would be fine, as it would allow for a summary of critical reaction, which I think is useful. This would be my second choice. The current practice though of listing the reviews without hyperlinks and having links in the footnotes does not work well and I would support its replacement. It is not user friendly.Ww adh77 (talk) 13:46, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

You do realise clicking on the citation number takes you directly to the bottom of the page? It does using Firefox anyway, and it also highlights the relevant citation for you, so it is essentially two clicks instead of one... and now it is in line with the rest of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a links directory, or an advertisement tool for wannabe reviewers, which is what the field is used for when it requires little to no effort to add a simple link. kiac. (talk-contrib) 14:01, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Bot usage

If it is decided to remove the reviews from the infobox by deactivating the Reviews field, then a bot should be used to move all the links to a different part of each article. The links should either be moved to a new Reviews template, or to a Notes, References, or External Links section. Something similar was done earlier this year when links to IMDB and AMG were removed from the {{Infobox film}} template. There's an archived discussion about that at Template talk:Infobox film/Archive 16#External links (imdb, amg, etc). An example of an edit by that bot can be seen here. Simply deactivating the field and trying to encourage editors to re-add the reviews manually would be a huge disservice to both readers and editors, since it would comment out vitally important reliable third-party references from an extremely large number of album articles. With that being said, I'm still in favor of leaving the reviews in the infobox, and it seems that a number of other editors are also in favor of leaving them there. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 15:27, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Given discussion in the above section, very few people are still of the opinion of keeping reviews in the infobox; many people who wanted them to stay have later changed their minds after some discussion. There are people who suggest a separate review infobox, however. WesleyDodds (talk) 02:24, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

In the case of any reviews that are formatted as inline citations (per our recent change in format), the AnomieBOT should rescue any references that are orphaned as a result of the field no longer displaying. As for articles that still have the reviews as bare links, we'd have to employ or design a different bot to handle that task. I would be in favor of a bot that, if not moving these reviews into a separate box as I expressed desire for earlier, would at least move them to an external links section. --IllaZilla (talk) 03:09, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I gave my two cents earlier- and I do agree after reading the discussion that the infobox is not the place for reception. I still strongly, strongly disagree with removing it before there's consensus on where else to put the information. I realize that the ideal scenario is having it in the prose. But there are good editors, and there are most editors. Articles under the care of good editors most likely already have a reception section. Most of the articles have neither a reception section nor the types of editors who are likely to write one. Bottom line, the simple mass removal of sourced information will do nothing to improve wikipedia on the whole. It needs to be relocated. 136.181.195.10 (talk) 18:11, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Where we stand

It's been seven days, which I think is long enough to attain adequate discussion and consensus. I'd say we're now pretty close to a general agreement that the reviews don't belong in the infobox, but that they should be put into a separate template similar to {{VG reviews}}. Does anyone disagree? Timmeh 19:33, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I can live with that. J04n(talk page) 19:35, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for counting my IP 136.181.195.10 (talk) 19:57, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I would've hoped you'd call me out on it if I hadn't. You were a participant in this discussion, and you should be treated as such, regardless of whether you're just an IP or a registered user. Timmeh 20:15, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree w/ the assesment; it seems to reflect the opinions & arguments expressed above. We should start devising a plan on how to carry such an action out. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Here, I created {{Album reviews}} based on {{VG reviews}}, and {{Arprose}} based on {{Prose}}. Here is a diff of something a bot could do (applied to Monuments and Melodies). The Reception section could be added just above the track listing section. —Akrabbim^talk 22:58, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

The example edit looks good, but we also need the bot to be able to determine if there is already a reception section in the article and make the appropriate edit based on that determination. If we can find someone who is able and willing to program a bot to do what we want it to do, we shouldn't have a problem getting it up and running. As for your templates, they're going to need documentation before we can start using them. Timmeh 23:51, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I like {{Album reviews}}, but does it need to say "Reception" across the top? Couldn't "Review scores" just be the headline banner (presumably 99% of the time it's going be under some kind of "Reception" or "Critical reaction" section header already)? Also changing "Publication" to "Source" might be better wording, as not all of the review sources are publications per se (are Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic considered publications? I don't know...I'm not really that concerned about this one actually). --IllaZilla (talk) 02:52, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I actually took out the aggregates section from the VG reviews template because I didn't think it was as important to albums as it is for video games. Are there other aggregates for albums besides metacritic? —Akrabbim^talk 03:12, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Aggregates was correctly removed in my opinion. Metacritic is the only major one, and isn't even all that extensive. I think he was just saying that online reviews don't always come from sources that are considered publications, so "Sources" may be better to use. I also think Score could be changed to Rating, since no one really scores an album, they rate it with stars and what not. I like the templates, it works for me. kiac. (talk-contrib) 03:23, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I finished the documentation, and made some of the recommended tweaks, so they are bot-ready, I think. —Akrabbim^talk 04:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

We also need to sort out what we're writing on our project page here. Also, is it worth considering posting a note on the album template so it is explained on talk pages and people don't continuously ask there why the reviews were moved. Or could we leave an invis note with the new review table with the bot edits, saying to come here for discussion or something (Similar to the album template invis tag). kiac. (talk-contrib) 09:42, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I think it would suffice to summarize the outcome of this discussion (and link to it) in our project guidelines, then have the bot's edit summary link to that guideline. --IllaZilla (talk) 16:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

←Just a quick point - 16 people have so far contributed to this discussion yet there are approx. 400 members of the Albums WikiProject not to mention the users that are in related projects but not this one. My main problem with Wikipedia is the way 'consensus' is gained by a few highly active editors taking part in discussions that the vast majority of users never see. Given that any change would potentially impact a huge number of users could we at least send a bot message to all members of the Project informing them of the discussion and asking for their input? I consider myself to be a reasonably active Wikipedian but I've only just stumbled across this thread. For the record I'd prefer to keep the reviews where they are with moving them to a separate template as my second choice. Cavie78 (talk) 12:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

It's an interesting idea, but surely any project members who consider themselves even remotely "active" will be watchlisting this page? People won't necessarily contribute to the discussion if they're happy with the way it's developing. I think it would be inappropriate to "spam" editors with a request for input. If they aren't watchlisting the page, that says enough. PL290 (talk) 13:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

While I agree that this is an unfortunate result of building consensus on a talk page (especially on the project talk page, which apparently far less people watch than they should), it is actually more in line with WP:CONS. First of all, if we waited for even 20% of the members to show up, everything would take forever. Secondly, if hundreds of people get a message dropped on their talk page, most will probably simply show up, quickly state their opinion, and leave it at that. This does not aid the spirit of establishing consensus. From WP:PRACTICAL: "The quality of an argument is more important than whether it comes from a minority or a majority." At this point, a lot of discussion has taken place, maybe enough to establish consensus, and I think it would be a disservice to the people who take the time to watch this page to wait for a month before enacting any change.

Along the same lines, some very strong arguments have been given in support of moving them out of the infobox: the fact that consensus has already been established in other projects for the other infoboxes not to include ratings, how infoboxes should not be a list of links, how moving them would encourage reception sections in prose, among other arguments. However, those that would rather keep them in the infobox haven't given such strong arguments. Why don't you think that they should be moved? In my opinion, based on WP:PRACTICAL, is that consensus has been reached. —Akrabbim^talk 13:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Many users, myself included, concentrate on writing articles and don't have the time to get involved with the myriad of discussion pages. I think they're an essential part of Wikipedia and I applaud those who are there to answer queries and bring up issues such as this, but what you are proposing is a significant change to the way at least 84000 (!) album articles are displayed. Even though I don't usually get involved in discussions I would certainly appreciate a heads up that the issue is being talked about and I don't think I'm alone. For the record I believe the reviews should stay where they are because the infobox is there to provide an 'at a glance' summary of the main facts relating to the album and ten professional reviews does an adequate job of summing up the album's critical reception.

I'm not sure why waiting for more input from members would be "a disservice to the people who take the time to watch this page" - what's the rush exactly? Surely it would be infinitely preferable to come up with something which has widespread acceptance throughout the Album Project community? I don't think we should wait for a set percentage of the community to take part in the discussion, simply that we should let everyone know about the discussion so they can contribute if they like, perhaps giving them 2-3 weeks to do so. I have a problem with the view that it should be assumed editors not contributing are "happy with the way [the discussion is] developing" and also that if "they aren't watchlisting the page, that says enough". Cavie78 (talk) 14:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Well if they are watchlisting and reading the discussion and still not contributing, then I'm sure they're quite happy with it. I know if I didn't like the way something was heading, I'd definitely poke my opinion in. My problem with placing hundreds of messages to the less active is that they will do the exact same thing I was going to do when i first saw this discussion; call it a load of crap, blurt out that it shouldn't be done and depart. After reading a few posts, which not everyone would do, especially with the size of this now, I was convinced otherwise and saw this as a way of moving forward. Sure, if people come and provide some quality insight it will help. But I don't think people as a whole will do this, it'll turn into one of those stupid voting polls. I believe we don't need to invite 400+ people in. I'm sure there will be a backlash, but this is a pretty solid discussion that will take a fair bit of respite to overturn, and I'm just not seeing any solid arguments on the keep side of things. We should be notifying all Wikiprojects involved for sure. kiac. (talk-contrib) 15:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree there's no point in bot-messaging 400+ project members: any member who is truly active or who really cares about how the project affects articles should at the very least be watchlisting this page, and thus should already be aware of the discussion. I also placed notices on the Infobox's talk page and on the Music project talk page, so a good-faith effort has been made to involve a wider slice of the community in this discussion. That said, I also agree that we shouldn't rush a decision this big; this discussion has only been going on for a week (though a lot has been accomplished in that time), so there's no harm in waiting another week or so before moving forward with the change. Of course it will probably take that long for us to decide on the execution of that change and develop the tools (bot) to carry it out, so there's also no harm in us discussing that probability and working on the solutions. If consensus changes in the next week or so, so be it. But so far we've got enough of a consensus to at least be developing our action plan. --IllaZilla (talk) 15:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Cavie78, I should perhaps have pointed out in my post above that I am in exactly the position I described: I have not contributed at all throughout the discussion—except to your post—and by watchlisting, I consider myself to have been kept sufficiently aware. I also agree with the additional points others have just made. It's not a question of "what's the rush"—there is no rush—but I think such an action as you mooted would be very likely to trigger drive-by responses from people who may not take the time to study the whole discussion, and hence indeed be a disservice to those who have devoted considerable thought and discussion to reach what may now be consensus (and thereby a disservice to the project). Finally, remember that nothing is irreversible: if consensus changes again later, usage can change again accordingly. PL290 (talk) 15:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] How we can start

As it probably be a good idea to hold off on a full-scale attack with bots and all that, I have an idea. What if we start making the change with well-written articles (like In Utero) that already have the appropriate information in prose? This could help us move forward in a number of ways. Firstly, it may bring more people who are watching those pages into the discussion to inform them of the changing consensus. Secondly, it could be a good dry run for how well the change actually works out, and we can see what kinds of backlash we could receive, and make changes for the better. If it turns out that the change doesn't work out, then we'll know before a bot changes thousands of articles. Thirdly, if it turns out that it truly betters the encyclopedia (which it hopefully will), then people will see these high-profile and well-written articles as an example of how to improve the lower-quality articles (and we'll need less of that {{Arprose}} template). Does this sound like a good idea? —Akrabbim^talk 17:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. It's almost always good to start with the FAs and work our way down. --IllaZilla (talk) 17:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we should leave this discussion open while beginning to implement our consensus. Editors who don't like the changes for whatever reason will come here and leave quick, uninformed comments against our current consensus. Editors who don't mind, or are in favor of, the change will have no reason to come here and voice their opinion, so they won't. Therefore, the discussion would quickly turn in the opposition's favor due to an unequal balance of participants. I think any implementation should wait until after this discussion has been marked as closed. Timmeh 21:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

How long do we have to wait? When do we know that the discussion is "closed"? I would just prefer to make some WP:BOLD edits to see how they are received while someone works on programming a bot. —Akrabbim^talk 21:48, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I think we've gotten a clear enough consensus from this discussion. It can be closed, meaning adding {{Archivetop}} and {{Archivebottom}} so that it is officially closed (as is often done at the noticeboards), right now if no one objects. If some implementation leads to significant opposition, anyone is free to start a new discussion contesting our current consensus. Timmeh 21:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.