[edit] Straw poll on recently-discussed revisions Some users have insisted that a consensus has been reached on particular changes; I do not believe that such a consensus is clear. I hope no one minds if I attempt to tally clear numbers on the level of support for the proposed changes. (I apologize if I make any errors in how I put this poll together, I've never done it before.) I'm putting in "Discussion" sections but I hope we can all agree there's no reason to repeat the same discussion that's already taken place above. I suppose my hope is that any discussion here should be in regard to the poll itself. Propaniac (talk) 00:50, 18 October 2009 (UTC) Note: I think it would be a good idea to wait at least until Tuesday (another 24 hours or so from now) for further responses before we try to draw any conclusions from this. Propaniac (talk) 12:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC) - I think waiting at least a week (until 25 October 2009) would be a good idea. Not all editors are on WP daily. :-) I don't think there's a pressing problem that's going to be fixed by drawing conclusions sooner (e.g., no edit wars are currently being waged, AFAIK). -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Question 1. Listing blue links first Do you support or oppose including this text in the MOS: Within each of the above groups, the most commonly-used meanings should appear at the top, with less common meanings below. Entries with a link in the description (Red-link entries and unlinked entries) should appear after blue-link entries. [edit] Responses 1 Add your "vote" to this section; include a brief summary of your rationale if you wish. - Support I believe it makes the page clearer, neater and easier to use. Propaniac (talk) 00:50, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose Though rare, a red like might clearly be more likely a target than a blue. The likelihood test should take precedence. (John User:Jwy talk) 01:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose. If a redlink satisfies the criteria for inclusion, there is no reason to sort it differently. older ≠ wiser 02:49, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support the first sentence; neutral on the second sentence; I'd prefer to see this left as a judgment call for editors per Jwy. --Muchness (talk) 03:42, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support. Disambiguation pages exist to address name collisions among articles (often stated as "Disambiguation pages disambiguate Wikipedia articles"). Red links are not (yet) articles. Topic that are likely for a reader to be seeking are also likely for an editor to have created. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:08, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose. I'm sorry to be a late entrant to this discussion, but I disagree with the whole idea of ordering on the basis of the supposed "most commonly-used meanings". A user is looking for a particular meaning. He wants to find it as straightforwardly as possible, and finding the options in some logical order will allow that. Putting the options in an order based on common use, which is very likely to be judged subjectively by the editor, is liable to confuse the issue and irrritate the user. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 13:25, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- To see the consequences of ordering by "likelihood", ponder this. Is this really the criterion for ordering that we want? SamuelTheGhost (talk) 13:48, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose. As clarified in several threads still showing on this page, the best ordering for some dab pages which include Redlinks is not to order by Bluelinks then Redlinks. To make a rule insisting upon that would be unhelpful. doncram (talk) 15:40, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose both the general spirit (per Ghostly Sam) and the red vs blue which forces extra maintenance as good doobies create the missing articles. Matchups 17:24, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- The creation of missing articles always forces maintenance, since each dab entry is to have exactly one blue link. No "extra" maintenance is involved. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:25, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'd rather not debate within this polling section. But that's not true: there is more maintenance involved in updating dab pages if the order is changed upon the creation of each new redlink article. Also if a simple order (not involving red-links vs. blue-links) is apparent in a page, editors slot new entries of any type in properly, while they do not if the ordering is not obvious. doncram (talk) 17:41, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, you're talking about keystrokes -- having to do a cut-and-paste in addition to removing the newly-extraneous wikilink brackets. Yep, you're right. Same number of maintenance edits, marginally more actual editing within those edits. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:50, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
-
-
-
- Yes, the extra work does at least involving more keystrokes, but not always merely that. In some cases it requires multiple page moves/renames and perhaps Administrator assistance, as in the case of the Roosevelt School disambiguation covered in #restore NRHP dab page please discussion section on this page. And it often would involve more than one edit to get the ordering right. It is surprisingly difficult for many editors to get a medium-sized list of U.S. entries each including parenthetical (City, State) mention back into state then city order, if it has been randomized. And to order according to a more complex ordering schemes involving red- vs. blue-links (which you can't distinguish when in edit mode) there would be more mistakes causing more edits. Plus perhaps more edits involving editors disagreeing what is the sensible ordering scheme, the one that might be dictated by a revised, arcane MOSDAB vs. what appears for many editors to be common sense order. doncram (talk) 18:15, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- An objection based on maintenance is irrelevant. DAB pages are perpetually in need of maintenance. What is problematic is that sorting redlinks to the bottom can make a list that is otherwise sorted by other criteria more difficult to use. That is what is unacceptable. A properly sorted list with redlink that has turned blue and thus might have two blue links is more useful than an illogically sorted list. older ≠ wiser 22:48, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose. I don't believe this will make every page simpler to read. --Tesscass (talk) 00:43, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support in principle, although determination of "most common" seems problematic. Suggest that second sentence be revised to say "This will usually result in [blue links coming before redlinks]" since the project is now sufficiently comprehensive that that should usually be the case. --AndrewHowse (talk) 03:33, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support. DAB pages are to help readers find the article they want so articles should come before possiblemaybesometimearticles ... and, under the likelihood "rule", entries with articles are going to be almost always more likely as a target than those without articles. Abtract (talk) 14:33, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose in this form. I'll address JHunterJ's comments specifically: WP:RA aren't articles either. Under this proposal, an entry would have to be moved halfway up the page just because it goes from Nonexistent class to Stub class. Such a change results in a bigger, more disruptive diff than de-bluing the link in the description. Should we also make a distinction between Stub class and Start class, or between Start class and GA class, or between GA class and Featured class? But AndrewHowse still has a point about the spirit of the rule. Make the "red links in last place" less normative and replace "should appear after" with "are generally less commonly used and will often appear after" and I'll reconsider. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 17:02, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- "Have to be" is wrong here. This is a manual of style. Editors who enjoy or for whatever other reason wish to clean up the disambiguation pages will always have maintenance possibilities awaiting them on the disambiguation project. How are any diffs "disruptive", since they are hidden from the reader? I'll address your other questions specifically: no, there's no distinction between stubs, starts, middling, GA, or Featured articles -- where they are ambiguous, those attributes do not make them more or less ambiguous. Note that this is different than non-articles, which are not ambiguous articles (nor unambiguous articles). -- JHunterJ (talk) 02:20, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose, per Bkonrad's wise point. Also, links should be ordered in the way that a person searching can quickly and intuitively find the link for which they are searching, whether it is a "likely target" or not. bd2412 T 00:12, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose, style isn't about colour of the link. Today's redlink is tomorrow's blue link, and that should necessitate more work?-- billinghurst (talk) 01:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- As noted above, the creation of ambiguous articles always results in a change to the dab page; no additional work is demanded here of editors who do not wish to perform it. -- JHunterJ (talk) 02:20, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
- The issue is not that redlinks turning blue will result in more work, but that it results in an incoherently organized list that is entirely preventable by not treating redlinks that meet inclusion criteria differently from other links. older ≠ wiser 03:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- The intermediate stage is not incoherent nor is it the final result. The result would be the corrected page -- the one with the extra blue link removed and the entry placed in its new position. So there's no real issue here. -- JHunterJ (talk) 03:59, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- Most disambiguation pages are in constant need of attention of some sort. Some are tended to regularly, while other sit unnoticed for months and years. Deliberately setting the stage to have an incoherently sorted list for any period of time seems irrational. older ≠ wiser 04:15, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- Except that it's not incoherent. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:31, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- What would you call a list that has no apparent organizing principle (or perhaps an inconsistently applied organizing principle)? older ≠ wiser 12:35, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose per all my arguments above. » Swpbτ • ¢ 16:43, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion 1 As I've noted before, the current ordering within a section is: - Articles with a clarifier in parentheses: e.g., South Pacific (film)
- Articles with a clarifier following a comma: e.g., Kneeland, California
- Articles with the item as part of the name: e.g., Electronic keyboard as part of a Keyboard dab page (Only include articles whose subject might reasonably be called by the ambiguous title.)
- Synonyms: e.g., Bite as part of a Nibble dab page
- Broader-subject articles that treat the topic in a section: e.g., Medieval art as part of a Fresco dab page
And so it already specifies articles (blue links) before broader-subject articles containing the topic (red links and unlinked entries). -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:08, 18 October 2009 (UTC) - I disagree with JHunterJ's interpretation, as have others over the last year who have interpreted what's written in MOSDAB. JHunterJ's interpretation hinges on noting the last item is one not involving a separate article. It is his judgement then,
not shared by many others which many others have disagreed with, that a redlink entry for an article name of any type of article name is more like that. I and others think that a redlink entry for an article name of some type (such as with clarifier in parentheses, for example), is more like a bluelink entry for an article name of the same type. I would suggest changing the MOSDAB to more explicitly rule out JHunterJ's interpretation, except that as a matter of good writing that would over-emphasize the blue- vs. red-link distinction which most MOSDAB readers do not need to hear more about than is available already. This disagreement in interpretation has already been discussed on this page and need not be continued out as a debate here, so I will probably not reply further here to others chiming in about what is their interpretation. Suffice it to say that there is disagreement on that interpretation. doncram (talk) 17:56, 18 October 2009 (UTC) - It's not an interpretation or my judgment, it's what "article" means, shared by me and Wikipedia. A red link is not the name of an article; if it were, the Wikipedia software would render it blue. Your continued disagreement with that is neither supported by any other Wikipedia interpretation of "article" nor shared by many others. Now, it could be that the guidelines about the ordering of articles first no long meet with consensus here and should be changed to explicitly allow articles to appear after red links or unlinked entries, and that certainly has been part of this discussion. But it would be to newly rule out the current ordering, not to more explicitly rule it out, since it is currently "ruled in". -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:05, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well, then perhaps the language should be changed to read entries or items rather than articles. Deciding whether to include a redlink at all is a judgment that there is likely to be an article on the topic. If there is little confidence that an article can or should be created, then the redlink should either be removed altogether or replaced with a link in the description to article containing relevant information. older ≠ wiser 22:48, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- If "article" necessarily implies "already exists in Wikipedia", then WP:Requested articles is a contradiction in terms because if they're "requested", then they aren't "articles". Go ahead and propose a move to "Requests for articles" on WP:RM if you mean it ;-) --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 22:06, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Just wanted to comment about the recent link to the article statistics page. Those statistics might be a little useful in determining a "most likely target" order, but requires a lot of interpretation and I have stopped attempting to use it in most situations. Just because an article is generally very popular doesn't mean it is popular when "addressed" through a particular term. My favorite example is David Bowie as an entry on the David Jones page. The statistics page has nothing to do with this discussion. (John User:Jwy talk) 18:14, 25 October 2009 (UTC) [edit] Question 2. Mentioning but not mandating another ordering scheme Do you support or oppose including this text in the MOS: When it is unclear which meanings are the most common, another logical scheme may be used. Alphabetical and chronological are two common schemes. [edit] Responses 2 Add your "vote" to this section; include a brief summary of your rationale if you wish. - Support I have no issue with suggesting these two schemes as possibilities, up to the editor's discretion. Propaniac (talk) 00:50, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support as per Propaniac. (John User:Jwy talk) 01:08, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Weak support, while I agree with suggesting consideration of alphabetical and chronological schemes, the implicit characterization of ordering by most common meanings as logical is a little misleading. Such ordering based on commonness may be expedient, and it may make sense in a particular context (which context would include temporality -- e.g., there may have been a short window where it made sense to list Sarah Palin first on the Palin disambiguation (now a surname) page, but it has now settled upon alphabetical). Such contextual considerations are not logical, but are a matter of judgment, discussion, and consensus. older ≠ wiser 03:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support this text inasmuch as it implies that "another logical scheme" is an alternate option to the default of sorting by most common meanings. --Muchness (talk) 03:42, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support. Although "logical" there is a bit odd to me, and would use "ordering scheme". -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:08, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Half support. Support second sentence only. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 13:26, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support, with worry/qualification as noted by older ≠ wiser. doncram (talk) 15:42, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Half support. Support second sentence, don't like reference to "most common." Matchups 17:26, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support. --Tesscass (talk) 00:45, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support. I think the word 'logical' is helpful, in order to exclude illogical ordering schemes. --AndrewHowse (talk) 03:36, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support. Abtract (talk) 14:37, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Half support per STG and Matchups. The only problem I see is that the qualification about whether or not it's "unclear" looks too normative for something so subjective. Reword it to acknowledge that an "unclear" situation is quite common especially in subject sections, as I have observed in practice, and you'll have my full support. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 17:13, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support second sentence. bd2412 T 00:13, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose it still isn't helpful. Keeping it simple doesn't involve adding non-helpful text.
- Oppose in favor of suggesting only alpha/chrono ordering, per my arguments above. » Swpbτ • ¢ 16:49, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion 2 I am concerned over the interpretation that this phrasing 'implies that "another logical scheme" is an alternate option to the default of sorting by most common meanings.' Our intent is, I believe, that if possible, it should be sorted by most common meaning. If not, the alternative schemes may be used. My assent here is on that understanding. If that is not clear in the statement, we should make it so. (John User:Jwy talk) 04:12, 18 October 2009 (UTC) - How does the second scenario (if possible, it should be sorted by most common meaning. If not, the alternative schemes may be used) differ from the first ("another logical scheme" is an alternate option to the default of sorting by most common meanings). The seem to me like two ways of phrasing the same approach? --Muchness (talk) 05:15, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- I guess I misunderstood your comment with your vote (especially reviewing your comment on option 3). An "alternate option" could mean and equally valid option. My intent is that most common meaning should be used if possible. (John User:Jwy talk) 18:15, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for clearing that up and apologies if my wording was vague. FWIW, my intention was to support using most common meaning if possible. --Muchness (talk) 03:51, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Question 3. Mandating another ordering scheme Do you support or oppose including this text in the MOS: Entries should be ordered with a logical scheme, such as alphabetical or chronological. [edit] Responses 3 Add your "vote" to this section; include a brief summary of your rationale if you wish. - Oppose There are cases where I do not believe this is the most helpful method and I do not believe it should be mandated. Propaniac (talk) 00:50, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Where you say "There are cases" could you give us an example? SamuelTheGhost (talk) 14:08, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose as per Propaniac. See discussion below. (John User:Jwy talk) 01:08, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Change the imperative should to a suggestion such as may and this has my full support. older ≠ wiser 03:03, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose this wording as overly prescriptive, though I support in principle ordering by alphabetical or chronological as the preferred scheme where the common meaning method is unclear or inappropriate. --Muchness (talk) 03:42, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support. Much the best way (and the one often now used in practice). The "such as" list could be expanded a bit. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 13:30, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Change the imperative should to a suggestion such as may and this has my full support, too, per older ≠ wiser's comment. doncram (talk) 15:45, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Semi-support. Unfortunately, I can't find the policy page on interpretation of "should." In many contexts, it is a weaker imperative than "must." I'd like to see something stronger than "may" but agree that an absolute rule is too much. Matchups 18:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose. I have problems with mandates. --Tesscass (talk) 00:45, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose. 'Follow option 1, or failing that option 2' would be quite sufficient. This 3rd option is really rather vague. --AndrewHowse (talk) 03:38, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
- No opinion, but I would like to comment that we are making blanket proposals for all types of disambig pages, when perhaps we should be targeting specific types of ordering schemes at specific types of pages. It doesn't make much sense to order common place names chronologically, for example, since the reader looking up a place will often not know how old it is relative to similarly named places. bd2412 T 00:16, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support if preceded by "Within a subject section,". --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 00:49, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose adding text for no benefit. If it makes sense, there won't be a complaint.-- billinghurst (talk) 01:36, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support per my arguments above, and strongly protest and suggest a redo given the irresponsibly leading structure of this straw poll, which mixes the suggest/mandate question with the commonality/alpha/chrono question. Alpha/chrono ordering should be suggested, to the exclusion of commonality, and this has nothing to do with the strength of the suggestion! » Swpbτ • ¢ 16:53, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- If you want to write a new poll, nobody's stopping you. This one is in no way official. I chose this format because at the time (you know, two weeks ago) it seemed like presenting the three different suggested versions (all of which were written by other people with whom I have no affiliation) and asking for feelings about each of them separately seemed like the cleanest method. In retrospect, there may have been a better way, but it was never my intention to be "irresponsibly leading" and I resent the implication. I doubt there was a perfect way to execute this poll, but it does seem to me like this one has provided a fairly clear picture of how consensus is leaning, and that the consensus generally supports wording in line with what's in the MOS right now. Propaniac (talk) 19:00, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion 3 A key concept in the discussion about this option is whether a scheme "makes sense." I'm a strong believer in focussing on optimizing the the navigation for the user looking for something. Looking at a well-optimized dab page may not "make sense" without examining it with this in mind, but if you are looking for a particular topic, you should be able to find your topic easily. In most cases, it should be easier to use than to organize. (John User:Jwy talk) 01:13, 18 October 2009 (UTC) Does anyone have a strong reason why in Wikipedia, we often treat England the same as we treat Russia, the US, or Tanzania, even though it is not a sovereign nation in political contexts like the UN or International Olympic Committee but the other three are? Reserving such special usage to the modern UK would unfortunately force us in light of WP:The role of policies in collaborative anarchy#Neutral_point_of_view to either recognize other former sovereign nations like the USSR, the Republic of Vermont, and the Sultanate of Zanzibar well outside of their historical contexts or count any number of subnational administrative divisions with at least their own own legislative assemblies like the State Assembly of Adygea, the Vermont General Assembly, or the House of Representatives of Zanzibar, which are well apart from their overarching national ones, at the same level as sovereign nations because England does not even have one of its own. In order to avoid violating one of the five WP:PILLARS by giving WP:UNDUEWEIGHT only to subdivisions of the UK, we could very easily limit our choice of modern countries to those described by the ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 as this not only includes every nation on the List of United Nations member states, the List of United Nations observers and non-members, and the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories but also quasi-nations like Greenland that have their own legislative assemblies and the power to make international agreements outside of the scope of their national legislatures, such as Greenland's not being party to the EC and most of the modern EU, unlike the rest of Denmark. :)--Thecurran (talk) 16:46, 25 October 2009 (UTC) - Quick answer "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" (Ralph Waldo Emerson). We are not "forced". as you put it, to do anything. The purpose of wikipedia is to inform and help the reader. Every English speaker knows what "England" means, so there is no good reason to avoid the term where it fits. By the same token, there is no overriding reason why a place may not be located just to "Texas" or "California". What is suggested here is a form of literal "political correctness" which we don't need. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 17:31, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
I am sorry but outside of the UK, many people do not understand what England actually means. I will do a quick WP:GOOGLETEST for you. :)--Thecurran (talk) 17:58, 25 October 2009 (UTC) - We aim to help readers, not to conform to arbitrary standards of political correctness. older ≠ wiser 18:28, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
If what you, User:SamuelTheGhost, were saying is true, then when one does something like merely checking the top ten hits of the ten result lists I come up with by googletesting for "Nation of England" in pages exclusively hosted by DNSes in each of the top ten nations of the List of countries by English-speaking population#List_in_order_of_total_speakers; US, IN, NG, GB, PH, DE, CA, FR, AU, and PK; I should not see a single instance of a writer clearly conflating England, the island of Great Britain, the UK, the British Isles, Europe, North-South divide#The_North, or the Western world. If more than ten per cent of articles make one the first three mistakes above, please accept that as refuting your stated hypothesis, "Every English speaker knows what "England" means[.]", and therefore your proposal, "[T]here is no good reason to avoid the term where it fits.", as you wrote it was conditional on the hypothesis with the word, "so". Let us commence said test, knowing full well that if less than ten per cent make said mistake, it merely means this test supports your hypothesis within a ten per cent margin of error but other tests may not do so. Since this follows the Scientific method, and one may WP:VERIFY this with WP:RELIABLE#Quotations of English speakers, which is one third of the WP:Core content policies, User:Bkonrad should realize that this is not just "conform[ing] to arbitrary standards of political correctness." but following our "aim to help readers". :)--Thecurran (talk) 19:17, 25 October 2009 (UTC) - NB: Subhits are included to depict exactly what readers would see. In searching for "nation of England", many of these pages hold opinion pieces that do not represent the views of editors on this page or Wikipedia in general. Please focus solely on the structural use of the words, "England" or "English", and do not propagate the intent of any content that is disgraceful or inflammatory.
- US
- wiki.answers.com A
- wiki.answers.com B
- nationalconversationforengland.wordpress.com
- qhpress.org
- synthstuff.com
- The once great nation of England
- From the London Daily Mail: Britain's blade culture claims another victim …Scouts' penknives
- Along with a box of matches and a piece of string, they've always been an essential part of a Scout's kit.
- -
- But now penknives are going to be restricted on scouting trips as a seemingly innocent tradition succumbs to concerns over the nation's blade culture.
- -
- The Scout Association is advising boys and their parents that they should not bring such knives to camp - despite it being legal for anyone to carry a foldable, nonlocking blade in a public place as long as it is shorter than 3ins...
- The Scout Association is British, not English.
- en.wikisource.org
- answers.yahoo.com A
- answers.yahoo.com B
- There are 2 ways to obtain Uk citizenship:
- -
- - live in the UK for 6 straight years, be 18 years of age when you start the 6 year living streak. You must promise to uphold the laws of the nation of england. You also have to provide a mental health record. You must provide proof of resident ship in the UK for 6 years. You also have to pay a fee.
- You promise to uphold the British law, not just the English.
- answers.yahoo.com C
- Neither phrase is much used in ordinary conversation. The English, by far the majority within the United Kingdom, have a tendency to call their nation England - with notorious disregard for the sensibilities of the Welsh and the Scots, with whom they have been linked since 1536 and 1707 respectively.
- This is not a conflation but it does serve to mark that improper speech exists that may lead to WP:FRINGE theories.
- answers.yahoo.com D
- Henry VIII rose to power since he was the king of England. He inherited the throne. That's the easy part.
- -
- He became so important since he broke the nation of England away from the Roman Catholic Church. He did it for his own desires, but at the same time made a major first step.
- He broke the British Isles away from the Roman Catholic Church, not just England.
- answers.yahoo.com E
- christianinternational.com
- God brought a prophetic comparison for our nation of England . As a nation, we provoked God. The British Empire has a history of robbing other lands through conquests, economically and through the slave trade. Our legislature has condoned witchcraft (for example, the Fraudulent Medium Act of 1951), abortion and same sex marriages. London boasts and lays claim to the responsibility, "No matter where Freemasonry started it was exported to the world from here." Additionally, through our monarchy, our government and grant support, we have become a nation of multiple gods and are currently cowering in political correctness concerning the spirit of Islam.
- The legislature is British, not English.
- britannia.com
- Prior to the great electoral reforms of the later 19th century, the legislative in England was restricted to a very limited class. But it was a powerful class indeed that came to dominate the House of Commons, and it was the House of Commons that made the Empire, for it was an empire based on trade. While England's great rival, the kingdom of Spain may have had mixed motives in its overseas conquests, the lure of gold perhaps as equally important as the saving of souls, those who governed Britain did not disguise their motives.
- Spain was the UK's great rival, not England's.
- everything2.com
- England has a Queen, Queen Elizabeth II. It has a Prime Minister, Tony Blair, who leads the Houses of Parliament.
- The UK has a Prime Minister, not England.
- I only counted nine hits, maybe Google counted subhit 1.1.1 as hit 1.2.
- IN
- flipkart.com A
- flipkart.com B
- Throughout history, the island nation of England has been one of the most difficult places to invade. However, a Norman duke named William successfully invaded England in 1066. His victory at the Battle of Hastings confirmed the name by which he would be known for the rest of time--William the Conqueror. Join author Tom McGowen as he puts you in the heat of a medieval warfare and shows you how William the Conqueror grew to be such an effective military leader.
- The island nation is Great Britain, not England.
- antya.com
- Although it should be noted that English art lies equally in the tendency toward melancholia, often expressed as a love of the continuity of the past with the present, and a love of ghosts, and marvelous or gothic ruins. As the population of England grew during the industrial revolution, a concern for privacy and smaller gardens becomes more notable in English art. There was also a new found appreciation of the open landscapes of romantic wilderness, and a concern for the ancient folk arts. William Morris is particularly associated with this latter trend, as were the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood. Another important influence, from about 1890 until 1926, was the growing knowledge about the visual art of Japan. Being a coastal and sea-faring island nation, English art has often portrayed the coast and the sea. Being a nation of four distinct seasons, and changeable weather, weather effects have often been portrayed in English art
- The coastal and sea-faring island nation is Great Britain, not England.
- movies.rediff.com
- pa-in.facebook.com
- ijtr.nic.in
- Brothers of the west have been at best in their ingenious faculty. Their claim that Civil Laws of England are the brightest jewels worth having is literally correct. Application of those laws in India as elsewhere, however, shows up futility of their claim. Their efficacy and efficiency may be assayed in the crucible of history. The milieu miasmic or congenial that attended the advent of the British Laws to India has a sordid story to tell. Making a retrospection we find that when State of Satara was annexed by the English, Rango Bapoji went to England to lay the grievances of Satara before the Home Authorities, who found the claim unsustainable and turned down the entreaty. Queen Banka of Nagpur tried to get justice from England, fee’d expensive barristers with lacs of rupees but in vain. Nana Sahab Peshwa of Bithor sent Azim Ullah his advisor to England to plead his case; Azim Ullah returned disappointed but fully convinced that justice could rather be wrested than be entreated and, therefore, advised Nana Sahab and the Badshah Bahadur Shah Zafar to wield their swords for what they were entitled to.
- England is conflated with the United Kingdom.
- vijayvaani.com
- Brought up Christian in Madras and now living in the US I know a lot about this subject. First of all, similar to other religions hardly any Christians follow the teachings/instructions of the religion. And of course the author is correct, there are many divisions within Christianity in India, depending on really one's economic status, not stricly what caste one was before becoming Christian. There are churches where the congegation is mostly well off and others where everyone is quite poor and services are conducted in Tamil. The mention of the different Christian groups as "Roman Catholics, Protestants, Methodists,etc." is incorrect. The 2 basic groups are Catholics and Protestants. Within Catholics are Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox and similar sounding names, the Roman Catholics are 99% of the Catholics. People don't seem to realize that RUSSIA IS NOT COMMUNIST ANY MORE IT IS RUSSIAN ORTHODOX. There Russian Communist party is now just a small opposition party. Within the Protestants are Methodists, Pentecostals, Evangelicals (many kinds) In the US/England the Evangelicals are usually the lower classes. The 'Church of England' is for the upper classes - the equivalent in USA is the Episcopalian Church. Russia has quickly realized that many if not all western church groups and western NGOs are really centers of sedition, India also should immediately ban the inflow of foreign money to western religious groups, western NGOs (however noble their aims seem to be) and even re-evaluate the work of WHO UNAIDS and such. Without foreign money coming in, let us see how many conversions there are. Another horrifying thing is that many international Christian groups are fronts for western intelligence (CIA etc.). A classic example is the Protestant missionary organization Wycliffe Bible Translators, which worked in concert with Rockefeller to destroy indigenous peoples' cultural values in South America to abet penetration by U.S. businesses. Do a web search on 'rockefeller wycliffe'. Similarly the Christian international 'World Vision' is connected with the CIA for sure, some think it is completely a CIA front - if you have the stomach for it, read this URL [H]ttp://www.whale.to/b/jonestown1.html [This link is from whale.to, which is blacklisted as spam; please do encourage spam by reading it.]
- The Church of England is conflated with the Anglican Communion in an international context, mentioning the Episcopal Church (United States) but ignoring the Scottish Episcopal Church.
- outlookindia.com
- Jews fleeing the Spanish Inquisition took their connections and skills to the island nation of England which had just thwarted the Spanish Armada. These Jews congegated in East London, created the East India Company and then successfully used the growing muscle of England to engage in slavery, trade, colonialism and ultimately fatal wars. Disraeli, once a liberal Jew, rose to power by advocating blowing up the Moslem mutineers in India by tying them to cannons. After he became the still only Jewish PM of GB, capital was shifted out of once thriving British manufacturing and Britain started to depend more and more on Imperialism to live high of the hog. Soon it fell behind Germany and had to start one war after another which eventually destroyed the Empire. Politicians like Churchill were merely paid mouthpieces of the true power in UK, the Jews.
- England is conflated with the island of Great Britain.
- indiastudychannel.com
- mouthshut.com
- I am sure my readers are getting my point and understanding that the attempt to show the British people as “racists” is totally wrong. If “Big Brother” earlier this year inspired this, then I am feel sad for the makers because they took one person’s attitude and applied it to the entire nation of England. To reiterate, this is very sad but it is true! In fact to think of it in another way, won’t the people from subcontinent have negative feelings towards a foreign person who decides to play a major part in their nation? Take the example of Greg Chapell in India: he is criticized all the time for being foreign and having a non-Indian approach. At least Indians and Pakistanis abroad do not face such public humiliation for being from the subcontinent. Shouldn’t Vipul Shah and his team understand these issues and then decide what works in the 21st century? I mean LAGAAN worked because it was a period film and showed rightly the situation at that time. NAMASTEY LONDON does NOT work because it is a modern day film that hardly reflects modern day situations.
- The British are conflated with the English.
- Again I only counted nine hits; Google probably counted subhit 2.1.1 as hit 2.2.
- NG
- No results found for "Nation of England".
- Results for Nation of England (without quotes):
- ngrguardiannews.com
- thisdayonline.com
- nigerianmuse.com
- nigerdeltacongress.com
- vanguardngr.com
- Mr Adisa Adeleye, you are distorting history when you said the British granted us independence on a platter of gold I quote. What happened was the South was more Nationalistic & agitative for self-rule while the North was not.British intelligence & their experience in the Arab world thought them that these people are ungovernable due to religion,fuedal system,culture & other factors decided to join them together as a punishment for these agitating Southerners. This they delibrately did to punish the South. Was it not Wiston Churchill who said “the further backward you look they further forward you can see” If you check Nigerian history you would agree that the North is the burden of Nigeria today. They refuse to go to school & obtain education. Their Elite do not want their down trodden masses to be educated so that they will remain slaves & servants. They only indoctrinate them in religious militancy then brainwashing them. Right now they are spending billions of oil money to mass feed them in the name of Ramada.Why giving them fish, teach them how to fish so that they can feed themselves during Ramadan. The Governors siphon half of this feeding budget & pocket same in their bank accounts. They allow foreigners crossing Nigerian borders at will from Niger,Chad & most sub-saharan region. How can Nigeria plan any economic development without correct statistic of the Nation’s real population. These people migrate, become religious advocates & militants in the North or move south to be security men or okada drivers. Once they commit crime specially murder cases they are no more hausa Nigerians then flee to their real country. Any Black African that trust the British must be a fool. They know that the North of Nigeria will continue to be a parasite to South Nigeria hence lets join them together. Now they want to build British prison in Nigeria so that they can dump black world convicts in Nigeria. What will happen when they start dumping mad American hardened lunatic killer convicts in Nigerian prisons. Immediately the British throw the dice of building British prison in Nigeria like a fish bate our Ministers jump at it because of the sterling pound they would collect from the back. US black make up 12% of the population but make up 85% of hardened convicts in jail. What happpens when they start bringing these human jail lions into British built jails in Nigeria. Aer there no more space to build jail in England?. Now this is the catch. The British took Africans as slave in the past century to develop Europe & America-Now the want to bring back these same slaves as mordern day 21st century convicts in British jails built in Nigeria after using & convicting them. God forbid bad things & MUMU AFRICAN LEADERS.
- England is conflated with the United Kingdom.
- postcardfromlagos.com
- shiredirect.com
- The Bank of England Base Rate is the United Kingdom's official rate of interest and is decided on a monthly basis by the Bank of England's Monetary Policy Committee.
- England is conflated with the UK monetarily.
- saharareporters.com
- [H]ttp://www.enownow.com/news/story.php?sno=4722 [This link is from enownow.com, which is blacklisted for spam; please do not encourage spam by visiting this site.]
- Nigeria Call Up Aluko For Ireland Friendly Match
- Nigeria have called up Aberdeen of Scotland English Youth International, Sone Aluko to be part of this...
- Scotland is conflated with English International.
- 234next.com
- GB
- englishmovement.org.uk
- opendemocracy.net
- For me, the crux of the issue is the splitting up of the old Anglo-British national identity that was at the heart of imperial Great Britain: the way in which the English have tended informally and instinctively to regard England and Great Britain as indivisible, and as interchangeable names for a single, unitary ‘nation'. Of course, the reality of imperial and pre-devolution Great Britain was never that simple, as Scotland, for instance, always retained many of the institutional trappings and the cultural identity of a distinct nation. But for the English, the English-national and British-state identities merged, making Great Britain (and later, the United Kingdom) to all intents and purposes the proxy-English nation-state.
- The writer does not conflate England with the UK but does note how common doing so is.
- Devolution changed all of that, once and for all. It was a definitive refutation of the ‘absolute' character of the Union, in both senses: not only the unitary character of the British polity but the ‘union' (merger, (con)fusion) within the English national identity between England and Great Britain. It was this cultural and psychological union that had sustained the political Union throughout its history, as it secured the loyalty and ‘ownership' of the greater part of the UK, which viewed Great Britain as ‘our nation' and the UK as "one of the great creations of this country", to quote Vince Cable's words at this week's Liberal Democrats' conference (The unconscious irony in Vince Cable's statement is that the UK is supposed to be ‘this country' not something that ‘this country' (England) has created!).
- The writer quotes a British politician conflating England with the UK.
- democracyforum.co.uk A
- democracyforum.co.uk B
- democracyforum.co.uk C
- democracyforum.co.uk D
- England HAS its own national sovereignty. It has NOT gone in a suitcase to Brussels or Strasbourg. Don't be fooled. It is right here, with its people. But in place of our national sovereignty is a rogue entity, the UK, which is a corporate nonsense posturing as our government. Time to assert our national sovereignty, to abandon political parties, and to move towards an end, a real end, of this Babylonian capitivity of rich elites, feudal privileges and to assert and obtain an England worthy of our own history and our own democratic choice. Nothing less. We need no infiltration of government. No hidden charities. No unaccountable police or intelligence agencies. No surveillance state. No obligations undertaken by the UK. We need an independent nation of England.
- The status of England is obfuscated.
- democracyforum.co.uk E
- ingentaconnect.com
- theenglandproject.net
- churchsociety.org
- tpuc.org
- anorak.co.uk
- icons.org.uk
- 2018england.co.uk
- PH
- Results 1 - 2 of 2 for "Nation of England".
- zion.ph
- The Lord was not unmindful of the mixture in the Spanish Empire. God had made them a great world power as they sought to spread their knowledge of God. But when Spain increasingly used that power for their own greed and did not spiritually grow into a purer Christianity, the Lord changed His blessing into judgment. God cast Spain down from holding the world's greatest empire, and raised up the nation of England to become the next world superpower. The main reason was because England had embraced the Protestant Reformation to become a more Bible-based nation than Spain. While England has had little direct influence upon the Philippines, a nation that was a spiritual 'son' did contribute much to the destiny of the Philippines. That nation was the United States of America.
- England is conflated with the UK, which became the world superpower.
- papers-on-nursing.com
- The advantages of the dynamism of nationalism, at least to Western nations, have been numerous. For example, the tiny island nation of England grew in five-hundred years from a weak nonentity to the master of the greatest empire the world has ever known. Nationalism fueled this rise, which began with Henry VIII and accelerated after the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588.
- England is conflated with the island of Great Britain.
- DE
- zum.de
- Two years ago we promised the Commander of the British man-of-war "Spitfire" not to attack or make war with Little Popo; he promised us that the people of Little Popo should not be allowed to attack us while the "Spitfire" was here at anchor off our town, and after we had given our faithful promise to her Commander, the Little Popo people came here, assisted by the Awoona people, to burn our town; we did nothing until they were close to and firing at our town, thinking that the "Spitfire" would prevent them, as her Commander had promised; instead of doing so, she steamed about, and the officers looked through their glasses, enjoying the sight. When we promise a great nation anything, and an officer of that nation also promises us, we keep our promise and expect the great nation to keep her promise. We kept our promise; the great nation of England did not keep theirs. This makes us cautious.
- England is conflated with the UK.
- divxturka.net
- docserv.uni-duesseldorf.de
- de.netlog.com
- alastaircampbell.org
- video.najoomi.com
- kirchenlexikon.de
- amazon.de
- newsgroups.derkeiler.com
- Re: All your data are belong to us
- ... One way ticket from Mornington Crescent to Tannhauser Gate please. ... island nation of england where ignorance flows like a summer brook. ...
- England is conflated with the island of Great Britain.
- buch.de
- CA
- flipkart.com A NB: This same site came up in the IN search.
- flipkart.com B NB: This same site came up in the IN search.
- Throughout history, the island nation of England has been...
- The island nation is Great Britain, not England.
- library.yorku.ca
- freshfire.ca
- I saw a human boomerang flying out of Canada and it hit the nation of England, it hit the nation of Australia, it hit the nation of New Zealand, and it came spinning around,
- England is conflated with the UK.
- tokyoartbeat.com
- The island nation of England developed while occupying a unique place in European history, and the sphere of painting is no exception. This is nowhere more true that in the field of modern landscape painting, to which area England's contribution has been considerable. In modern Japan, too, there was a group of painters with a strong yearning and inclination towards modern English landscapes, whose work forms an important component of this museum's collection, which focuses mostly on landscapes from the 17th century onwards. This exhibition from the permanent collection presents Japanese yoga paintings related to England by artists such as Katsumi Miyake and Chuji Kuribara as an appropriate companion exhibition to the "Twelve Travels" exhibition of English art.
- England is conflated with Great Britain.
- arts.ualberta.ca
- The historical mix of social fictions in England and France at the end of the 1780s greatly impacted the literature of the period. Tom Paine's The Rights of Man (1791) and Edmund Burke's Reflections on the Revolution in France (1791) were the two most widely read works that spurred a decade long debate on how the nation of England was to be governed and by whom. As a young man during this period, William Wordsworth formed part of the circle of writers who fought for the Republican cause of democracy and its ideals. Similar to the poet William Cowper, Wordsworth's early poetry contributed to a larger framework of social reform literature that the publisher Joseph Johnson promoted throughout his career from the late 1770s until his death in 1809.
- England is conflated with the UK.
- bigsoccer.com
- jamagination.ca
- Similar examples abound: Gulliver’s representation of English naivety when he expounds on the superficial joys of the Struldbrugg’s immortality(Swift 1065), Swift’s allusion to the whore-like behavior of English scientists during his etymology of Laputa (Swift 1058), his mockery of the Royal Society of London during Gulliver’s description of the bizarre inventions of the Royal Academy of Lagado, and Swift’s satire of England’s racist colonialism through his depiction of the Houyhnhnm’s enslavement of the Yahoos enumerate a broad collection of England’s flaws. Any argument that attempts to specify a central theme of Gulliver’s Travels is bound to consider the denigration of England as its subject. With such an overwhelming body of evidence on its side, the argument that Gulliver’s Travels diminishes the reputation of England is a powerful one. It is an argument with which, by the end of his adventure, Gulliver seems to agree.
- England is conflated with the UK.
- booksincanada.com
- In other words, even while including chapter-length caveats of the English treatment of the Irish and of slavery and its tragic aftermath, Phillips argues that the world bequeathed to us by the Puritans was ever more open to political involvement by, what he calls, "ordinary folk". And he's got the numbers to prove it. Prior to the challenge to Charles I, England's "political nation" consisted of some tens of thousands of nobles; the one that took his head consisted of approximately 200,000 shopkeepers, petitioners, and traders. In 1775, the English political nation totaled 400,000, the majority of whom opposed war with their co-religionists across the Atlantic. By 1865, its official total was more than one million. But, as Phillips argues, despite the economic dislocation caused in England by the loss of Southern cotton, millions of England's own (disenfranchised) workers were supportive of the North; England, therefore, was kept from siding with the Confederacy, which means that the political nation of England was even larger, as was recognized in the Electoral Reform Act of 1867.
- England is conflated with the UK.
- filmwest.com
- The nation of England can trace its beginnings to the second half of the First Millennium AD. This was the Dark Age, a period of tribal invasions and conflicts when civilization itself seemed to retreat. For many, the terrifying pagan Vikings symbolizes a bleak period of history. But there are shafts of light that illuminate the English Dark Age, as this fascinating program reveals. It was a time of legendary Kings like Arthur, Alfred, and Offa, the builder of the famous dyke. The amazing discovery of the Burial Ship at Sutton Hoo proved that skilled craftmanship did not die out. The survival of Christianity led to the production of the dazzling Lindisfarne Gospels, and the events of the age are also recorded in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, the first great work of English prose.
- A preponderance of historical bases for King Arthur are Celtic and place him as the victor at the Battle of Mons Badonicus over the Anglo-Saxons. This would make him Romano-British and an enemy of the English. As such England is conflated here with Britain or even Wales.
- Again I only counted nine hits; Google probably counted subhit 7.1.1 as hit 7.2.
- FR
- Results 1 - 3 of 3 for "Nation of England".
- agceep.net
- fdesouche.com
- mx.buzzear.net NB: This broken link is of a farce and written for Mexicans.
- AU
- catalogue.nla.gov.au A
- catalogue.nla.gov.au B
- redbubble.com A
- English art is the body of visual arts originating from the nation of England, in the form of a continuous tradition. Following historical surveys such as Creative Art In England by William Johnstone (1936 and 1950), Nikolaus Pevsner attempted a definition in his 1956 book The Englishness of English Art, as did Sir Roy Strong in his 2000 book The Spirit of Britain: A narrative history of the arts, and Peter Ackroyd in his 2002 book The Origins of the English Imagination. Although medieval English painting, mostly religious, had a strong national tradition and was at times influential on the rest of Europe, this was in decline from the 15th century and the Protestant Reformation not only brought the tradition to an abrupt stop but resulted in the destruction of almost all wall-paintings. Only illuminated manuscripts now survive in good numbers.
- England is conflated with Britain.
- redbubble.com B
- English art is the body of visual arts...
- England is conflated with Britain.
- nla.gov.au A NB: This broken link is not cached.
- nla.gov.au B NB: This broken link is not cached.
- cecaust.com.au
- LaRouche Fields Question on the Nation of England vs. Empire
- England is conflated with Britain.
- forerunnersinternational.com.au
- users.on.net
- Whilst the overseas facilities were very impressive, particularly the research vessels I found the management of fisheries disappointing. In Japan the abalone fishery was managed by the most draconian limits on fishing gear, in some prefectures the abalone had to be caught without swimming. In others diving was allowed but no compressed air. Whereas we had moved on to limiting entry the great fishing nation of England did not even know how many vessels they had. Estimating catch and effort rested on interviews with a sample of vessels when they returned to port and extrapolating the results. Yet the acknowledged concern about overfishing had resulted in no action. One leading figure rather embarrassingly admitted that although the North Atlantic boasted most of world’s fisheries scientists their work seemed to have little impact on the well being of the fisheries.
- England is conflated with the UK.
- betting-exchange.com.au
- One-day matches, also known as limited overs or instant cricket, were introduced in English domestic cricket in the 1960s due to the growing demands for a shorter and more dramatic form of cricket to stem the decline in attendances. The idea was taken up in the international arena in 1971, during an England team tour of Australia, when a Test match was rained off, and the one-day game has since swollen to become a crowd-pleaser and TV-audience-generator across the globe. The inaugural World Cup in 1975 did much to hasten this. The abbreviations ODI or sometimes LOI (for Limited Overs International) are used for international matches of this type. In one-day cricket, each team bats for only one innings, and it is limited to a number of overs, usually 50 in international matches. Despite its name, a one-day match may go into a second day if play is interrupted by rain. Day and night matches are also played which extend into the night. Innovations such as coloured clothing, frequent tournaments and result oriented-games often resulting in nail-biting finishes have seen ODI cricket gain many supporters. Strategies such as quick scoring, gravity-defying fielding and accurate bowling make this form more invigorating as compared to the Test matches.
- England is conflated with England and Wales but this reflects the global parlance of the International Cricket Council, so should not be counted.
- I only counted seven; Google probably counted 9.1.1 as 9.2, 9.2.1 as 9.4, and 9.3.1 as 9.6.
- PK
- Results 1 - 1 of 1 for "Nation of England".
- allamaiqbal.com
- Today we too long for a university. Muslims are the real founders of University. Today if Englishman is giving Muslims a university, it is only a repayment of debt. European countries are indebted to Muslims for their universities.
- England is conflated with Britain or the West.
Altogether there are 69 DNSes; 30 of which improper call other entities England. That's over 40% of random English writers across the Anglosphere picked up on the first phrase tested. That is statistically significant so we can safely refute the original hypothesis, 'Every English speaker knows what "England" means.'. As such, it is not improper to request a clear distinction between England and the UK in the field of Geography. :)--Thecurran (talk) 13:20, 7 November 2009 (UTC) - I don't have the slightest idea what you're test is supposed to demonstrate. It might be more meaningful if you asked at the UK Wikiproject whether they have a preference for how their regions are presented on disambiguation pages. Or at WP:VPP whether there is in fact any relevant policy dictating whether to use one form over the other. older ≠ wiser 19:47, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for your input. I was discussing User:SamuelTheGhost's hypothesis and, in doing so, linked several relevant policies, including one of the five pillars and one of the three core content policies. I am showing my respect to User:SamuelTheGhost by taking the hypothesis seriously and subjecting it to rigorous scrutiny as a peer. :)--Thecurran (talk) 21:00, 25 October 2009 (UTC) - That's well and good. But I don't see that the linked policies explicitly support the specifics of your contention. Secondarily, I think you may be mis-using Google. What your results show is that people very commonly conflate UK and England, especially in matters of foreign policy. That means little with regards to locating a place. older ≠ wiser 22:30, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
-
- Cant see anything particularly wrong with the England (disambiguation) page although I cant find anything in the discussion above why the user doesnt like the disambiguation page. Perhaps User:Thecurran can be clearer what style issues are involved in that page. England seem to be the correct primary topic so I cant see anything wrong with that either. Also note that England is not mentioned in the related guideline to this page. MilborneOne (talk) 14:20, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- You are right, [[User:MilborneOne], I was not clear enough. I linked the word, "Wikipedia", in the first sentence to WP:MOSDAB#Places, on the attached page because it has:
- Kimberley may refer to:
- ...whereas when I read "New Scientist" from London, it always has British addresses written like Kimberley, Nottinghamshire, United Kingdom. I mistakenly thought it was a simple typo and did not realize trying to fix it would be controversial. I am concerned that out of every place on the planet, only the Home Nations of the UK are treated this way. We do not even do this for Flanders and Wallonia of Belgium (cf. Facultés Universitaires Notre-Dame de la Paix, despite them constantly using different languages in every context (cf. BBC Wales and BBC Scotland). Especially because this is the English Wikipedia, it seems imbalanced on the one hand, and wikt:misinforming our readers on the other (not disinformation). Since this imbalance only applies to the UK, it tends to give the UK WP:Undue weight. :)--Thecurran (talk) 02:01, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Arbitrary break I don't see a problem with using England(ish) when it is used correctly (ie meaning England not the UK or Britain or the BI). This is the English wp, the word England is commonly used by the natives to describe placenames, most sons and daughters of the UK now populating much of the English speaking world will understand England, Scotland etc because they delight in claiming heritage from those places. As to comparisons with other parts of the world, if there is a problem with those placenames then adress that problem don't upset the English applecart which is working pretty well atm ... imho. Abtract (talk) 06:41, 28 October 2009 (UTC) - The problem is many "sons and daughters of the UK" do not understand what England means. I have had university-educated people that "delight in claiming" English heritage and have travelled to several countries tell me that one should never call a Scot British, that the British people are the ones that live next to the Scottish and the Welsh, and that the proper term for all of them is English. I have heard this same confusion from men that display their Scottish Pride by kilting up in Highland garb for bridal parties. The simple fact of the matter is that there is a large minority, if not a majority, in our target audience that confuse English and British. We are here to enlighten the World; not to confuse it. The prime nationality of someone born in the Kingdom of England before the Acts of Union 1707 took effect on 1707-05-01 is English. That would also be true of someone born there after hypothetical future events like the independence of England or the dissolution of modern state boundaries within the EU. Anyone else born in England is primarily British. I have no problem with a person being called "an English runner", etc. in the first sentence of the introductory paragraph but place names, especially birthplaces in info-boxes, should correctly refer to either "Kimberley, Nottinghamshire, England, UK", "Kimberley, Nottinghamshire, UK", or some less abbreviated version. :)--Thecurran (talk) 09:09, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- You may be arguing in the wrong forum. You may have more interest in this issue at Wikipedia:WikiProject England and Wikipedia:WikiProject Scotland. If there is consensus in those projects for a particular usage, then I think this project would be likely to go along with whatever those projects decide. older ≠ wiser 12:19, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- Maybe you are right. I have appended some links here in WT:England#UK. :)--Thecurran (talk) 23:43, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Heidegger _ _ At Heidegger (disambiguation), i've reverted the Rdr to the article Martin Heidegger, thereby reviving the previous attempt at a Dab, and written the full content it needed. But i refrained from placing the needed HatNote on that bio.
_ _ IMO the ill-informed 3-2 poll against the hatnote, at Talk:Martin Heidegger#Final_Fantasy Heidegger_vs_Martin_Heidegger (whose title, at least, makes me feel like i'm in a Monty Python sketch, BTW!), deserves respect primarily as evidence of the inadequacy of WP:RFC (i think it was listed there), but repairing its outcome is not a battle i want to get any closer to being involved in. YMMV.
--Jerzy•t 16:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- That poll discussion is amazing (starting with: "as FFVII's heidegger and martin heidegger are equally notable..."), but to me it doesn't seem there's a major dispute here. It appears that at the time, it was thought Wikipedia only had information on two uses of the term, and that in spite of input from people who had heard of the video game character and not the philosopher, the discussion incorrectly concluded that the video game character wasn't important enough to be linked in a hatnote. Since it's clear from the current version of Heidegger (disambiguation) that there are at least a few different topics that could be referred to as "Heidegger", I re-added a hatnote linking to the dab page. Propaniac (talk) 18:01, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion of new template for disambiguation pages A deletion discussion that may be of interest: Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2009 November 12#Template:All pages. older ≠ wiser 12:22, 13 November 2009 (UTC) I really dislike the growing use of {{intitle}} on disambiguation pages. It is so horrible self-referential. Is there really consensus for this—I can find no discussion on it in the archives—or is it one of those cases where a few people who like it have put it in the MOS and rolled it out, and no-one has thought to challenge it? Hesperian 23:36, 25 November 2009 (UTC) - Disambiguation is an aid to navigation of the encyclopedia, and unlike articles, navigation pages are supposed to be self-referential. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 01:00, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware of this template or its use, but I think it's far preferable to long lists of partial title matches that are all too frequent on dab pages. There was the start of a slightly related discussion here regarding a messy page at Broad Street Historic District, where I suggested a search template might be much the lesser evil. Station1 (talk) 01:07, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
- Hesperian - why do you dislike this template? I don't see anything self-referential about it - it doesn't refer to itself (or do you mean that the dab page itself shows up in the results? that's true of course, but as far as I can tell it doesn't significantly harm the utility of the template.)--Kotniski (talk) 14:01, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
- It shouldn't be used indiscriminately, but it is far, far preferable to including long lits of psrtisl mstches. older ≠ wiser 03:48, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Surname pages It seems there is currently a policy (Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)#Given names or surnames) to put long lists of people with the same surname on surname pages, e.g., Brown (surname). There are at least two problems I see with this: (1) many users from the United States are unfamiliar with the term surname, since last name is the common usage there; (2) surname pages discuss the history/etymology of the surname itself, which is really a separate topic or purpose for the page. I have noticed, for example, that on the Thomson page, the edit history reveals many editors adding surname disambiguation entries on that page rather than the surname page, possibly because they do not realize that the list of surnames is on the Thomson (surname) page. (At least this was the case for me, so temporarily I have added a note to this effect on the Thomson page and some discussion on Talk:Thomson to try to deal with this problem.) It seems there are other pages that serve for disambiguating (or locating) people with the same surname, e.g., List of people with surname Smith. A link to this page is included on the Smith page. This seems to me to be a better approach, and I suggest this should become the policy in preference to using surname pages for these lists. --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:33, 26 November 2009 (UTC) - The word "surname" accommodates cultures that put the surname first, such as those of China, Japan, Hungary, and wherever the Turanga family of Futurama came from. (Trilingual, bilingual, American.) --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 21:37, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
- So we should keep "surname" in the page title. There are already a ton of pages in the "(surname)" class which have disambiguation lists, and it is not practical to change them. But the policy section could mention the possible alternative of creating a page like List of people with surname Smith, when the list of names is long and/or the information on name history/etymology becomes substantial. --Robert.Allen (talk) 21:58, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
- Your proposals and questions should be brought up over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anthroponymy. As noted in the section you linked, those list articles aren't disambiguation pages. -- JHunterJ (talk) 02:49, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
The composer I was looking for was referred to simply as Thomson, and the name was not linked to an article. I did not find it on the Wikipedia Thomson disambiguation page. So this is what Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)#Given names or surnames currently says: Persons who have the disambiguated term as surname or given name should not be mixed in with the other links unless they are very frequently referred to simply by the single name (e.g. Elvis, Shakespeare). For short lists of such persons, new sections of Persons with the surname Xxxx and/or Persons with the given name Xxxx can be added below the main disambiguation list. For longer lists, create an article called Xxxx (name), Xxxx (surname) and/or Xxxx (given name), and link to it from the disambiguation page. I think it might be changed to something like the following (bold is only used to highlight my suggested additions): Persons who have the disambiguated term as surname or given name should not be mixed in with the other links unless they are very frequently referred to simply by the single name (e.g. Elvis, Shakespeare). For short lists of such persons, new sections of Persons with the surname Xxxx and/or Persons with the given name Xxxx can be added below the main disambiguation list. For longer lists, create an article called List of people with surname Xxxx, Xxxx (name), Xxxx (surname) and/or Xxxx (given name), and link to it from the disambiguation page. In the case of the Xxxx (surname) link it is advisable to append an explanation, such as, Xxxx (surname), list of people with the last name Xxxx, since not all users will be familiar with the term "surname." Would this be inappropriate? --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:30, 27 November 2009 (UTC) - As noted, not all surnames are last names; the description might use the phrase "family name", however (even though there are currently separate WP articles on surname and family name). Perhaps we can emphasize the article-ness of these pages (and push the instructions on naming the articles to the appropriate project) with something like:
Persons who have the disambiguated term as surname or given name should not be mixed in with the other links unless they are very frequently referred to simply by the single name (e.g. Elvis, Shakespeare). For short lists of such persons, new sections of Persons with the surname Xxxx and/or Persons with the given name Xxxx can be added below the main disambiguation list. For longer lists, create an article for them; see Wikipedia:WikiProject Anthroponymy. - I'd rather not specify the dab guidelines that definitions or synonyms of "surname" be added to dab pages. OTOH, if the composer is frequently referred to by just the surname (that is, a reliable source might mention him without ever mentioning his given name(s)), then his article should have a separate entry on the dab page. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:31, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
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