WikiProject Manual of Style
	This page falls within the scope of WikiProject Manual of Style, a drive to identify and address contradictions and redundancies, improve language, and coordinate the pages that form the MoS guidelines.

edit Layout/Archives
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[edit] Rividian's edit

Rividian, concerning your point about See also links, do you see this as applying only to WP:BLP material or is it broader? If it's only about BLP stuff, then maybe WP:BLP would be a better place for it. There's also the question of whether this should be policy or not; if so, then it needs to be in WP:BLP, and if not, then it can't go there. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 01:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

• Well it applies to organizations and basically any article. I just don't like the idea of someone going to the, say, Louisville Metro Council article and adding "See also: Nazi Germany" and saying that, under the letter of this guideline, it's okay since the guideline says nothing about a source. BLP is the biggest issue... but it could be done on any article... and note that my example is intentionally over-the-top, but incidents of this on Ralph Nader and Ashley Todd mugging hoax were more subtle. I don't see how policy would allow people to make such uncited comparisons, even if it's not a living person biography. The see also section shouldn't be a loophole to let people make controversial comparisons without a reference... I think we still need this wording. --Rividian (talk) 23:12, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Good suggestion, although I think this should be in a policy page, not a guideline, specifically WP:NPOV. I quoted you over there and made a specific suggestion, at WT:NPOV#Rividian's comment at WT:Layout. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 17:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Layout#Notes, Footnotes, or References

There is a lot of confusion in articles regarding the title(s) to be used for reference sections. It needs to be made clear in the guidelines. Coming here to try to work out which title, I read:

Format: As explained in more detail at Wikipedia:Citing sources#Adding the citation, the format of these sections, their titles, and the specific information in each depends on the citation style used in the article.

Ah, so I need to click the link to get guidance on the title, but when I do, I read:

The full citation will appear in a section at the end of the article (usually called "Notes" or "References", see Layout).

So that takes me back to where I started. My main point is where notes and references are formatted in the main text and appear in a single section below it. This should be called "Notes and references" as that is what it is, and that is what the guideline used to advise. This seems to have disappeared. Consequently editors just call the section "References". Is there anywhere that such a change has been agreed? I raised the point earlier on this page, having had my mention of "Notes and references" in the guideline removed, and being assured that matters were under revision and it would be attended to. But it hasn't. It's just vanished.

I propose some text along the lines of:

When there is only one section for combined notes and references, then title it "Notes and references".

This is a particularly important point, because this is the most common (and easiest) format for citations.

The heading for this section of the guideline might be called:

Notes, Footnotes, References, or Notes and References

Ty 06:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Trust me, you are trying to open Pandora's Box with this suggestion. The real answer is found in the introduction at Wikipedia:Citing sources#Adding the citation: Editors are free to use any of these methods or to develop new methods; no method is preferred. Which is followed by a footnote (no. 5) that includes your suggestion but doesn't mandate particular titles. I think the fix needs to be made at Citing sources, not here. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 19:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I did a fix at Citing sources. So, at least, there won't be an unending loop between the two. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 19:18, 21 November 2008 (UTC) P.S. - Maybe the text in footnote 5 at Wikipedia:Citing sources#Adding the citation should be taken out of the footnote and placed in the body of the article. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 23:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Under the heading "Standard appendices" there was for a long time this handy summary:[1]

Certain optional standard sections, when used, should be placed at the bottom of an article. There is consensus that the plural form of the section name should be used. Common appendix sections:

• Quotations (deprecated)
• See also
• Notes (or Footnotes)
• References (or combined with Notes into Notes and references)
• Further reading (or Bibliography or Books)
• External links

There needs to be such a summary, as, following the revisions, the reader has to go through all the text and make their own summary. It clearly spells out the options for reference section titling. Now there is no mention at all of "or combined with Notes into Notes and references", but I don't see anywhere that it has been agreed to omit it. Is anyone disputing that where notes and references are combined into a single section, then the title for that section should be "notes and references"?

Ty 04:13, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Two great minds. For a while now I have had on my "to do" list to do a wp:Transclude text section based on wp:Writing better articles#Standard appendices and putting it in this article, the Writing better articles article and the Manual of Style. Maybe you can beat me to it. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 12:59, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S. - You can find a lively discussion of what to say about the notes, footnotes, notes and footnotes, references, citations, etc. sections at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Layout/Archives/2008 (discussions 18, 19, 20, 28 & 36). Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 13:06, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I often see notes and references show up at FAC titled "Notes", and I try to keep my hands off things that seem like established preferences ... but I just can't see a reason to try to create confusion in the reader's mind about the difference between a note and a reference, so I always change it to "Notes and references", and I generally don't get reverted. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 13:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)