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- For a Table-of-Contents only list of candidates, see Wikipedia:Featured articles/Candidate list
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Archives
| | 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, April Fools 2005, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31 Short FAs, 32 Short FAs cont., 33, 34 Context and notability, 35, 36 new FAC/FAR delegates, 37, 38, 39 Alt text, 40, 41 42, 43 44, 45 | | [edit] FAC deliberations Since this article was promoted long ago in a subsequent FAC (hence it's now OK to discuss it), and because I've been pondering lately issues surrounding some arb statements in several ArbCom cases, I raise this old example for discussion here. Reference my closing rationale for this FAC: on rare occasions, when consensus isn't clear or the FAC is combative, I include a closing rationale on talk. As FAC delegate, it is frustrating to see invalid opposes lodged, particularly when many of those opposers overlooked more substantial issues in the article at the time, lodging instead a quick "1e, unstable" oppose. But if the delegates intervene in the FAC, by mentioning that the opposes aren't based on WP:WIAFA, to what extent would that have prejudiced the FAC outcome? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:00, 6 November 2009 (UTC) - when someone who does a lot of reviews and whose opinions people respect say "support" or "oppose" do they influence the support or opposition of others? I'd say that is more likely that if you intervene and say, support or opposition based is not based on wiafa is simply keeping us on task. Reminding us not to get wrapped up in something that not related to the criteria. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:12, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
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- In that case, I think the opposers (of which I was one), had a different definition of "unstable" than the supporters. I see this as an example of an FAC which helped to define what "stable" means. What you are suggesting is that the delegates should have intervened and defined "stable" - shouldn't that have been left up to the FAC community? Awadewit (talk) 03:03, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
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- 1e was discussed here at WT:FAC but not on the individual FAC page, so some reviewers might not have seen it. The question relates more to whether intervening directly in a FAC would prejudice the outcome or derail the FAC (I'm raising this because of some recent arb comments that appeared prematurely prejudicial). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:31, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
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- Perhaps you could link us to the arb comments, so we all understand the context for you asking the question? Awadewit (talk) 03:33, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
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- I don't see any benefit in going down that path; I think the context for my question is clear enough. How much should delegates intervene in a FAC, and to what extent might that prejudice or derail the FAC, when we see invalid opposes? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:35, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
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- If you don't think the context is important, I'm confused as to why you mentioned it in the first place - clearly you did think it was important. I dislike this attitude on Wikipedia of only people "in the know" who read AN/I and RFAR every day really understanding what conversations are about. Awadewit (talk) 03:41, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- But sometimes, here as elsewhere, that is pretty much the case. Personally I think about the current level to slightly more intervention is about right. But remember to keep your mystique, Sandy & Karanacs :) Johnbod (talk) 03:46, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that you had my talk page watchlisted, Awadewit; there are no secrets, but we don't need to crosspollinate discussions with unrelated matters. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:51, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
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- (OT: Shockingly, I don't read it every day! More like once every few weeks. I know, I know. Heresy.) Awadewit (talk) 03:56, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- Well :) The only intent here was to get feedback on how delegates might do our "job" better, avoiding some pitfalls I've recently observed on arb cases. I didn't intend to delve into unrelated issues at ArbCom. Carry on :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:32, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- As an occasional reviewer who has the impertinence to review others FA work without having created any myself; I would hope that if the FAC delegates found some of my whitterings unhelpful they would Email me or put an appropriate note on my talkpage. If that didn't work then wjem consensus might not be obvious to some participants, a closing rationale that mentioned the sort of arguments that were ignored would in my view be in order. ϢereSpielChequers 13:16, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- So, based on feedback from Antieruth55, Johnbod and WSC, it seems that it's OK for us to cautiously weigh in a bit more often on FACs ?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:01, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- I favor that. In helping all participants--reviewers, nominators, other contributors--focus on relevant and substantial, rather than irrelevant or relatively inconsequential, concerns, that would benefit the process. DocKino (talk) 21:11, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
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- I would think so. Let's say in a hypothetical FAC, there is a dispute about whether an oppose is actionable. After the discussion, the FAC delegate might want to weigh in, simply to prevent everyone from wasting their time in waiting for promotion or not. It seems worthwhile. Seems worthwhile.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:10, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
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- Yes, if we're getting distracted by an unactionable oppose or support, then definitely weigh in, by reminding us to stick to the point (or however you want to phrase it...you are very tactful). In a recent review (a project review), we got side tracked on the number of footnotes, where they were placed, and what they looked like. In that particular review process, neither citation style nor the number of citations is an actionable oppose, so we all had to be reminded of this. Fortunately, a couple of other reviewers pointed it out, and a big wig was not required to step into the fray. :) Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- When possible, it's always preferable for other reviewers to point things out, so Karanacs and I can stay out :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:32, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- And the good thing about their being two of us is that if we do cross the line into being too involved, the other can handle the close. We may need other reviewers to help us realize if we get to that line, so it can be so hard to see (especially with Sandy and I both having atrocious eyesight). Karanacs (talk) 20:52, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Trivial request My eyesight stinks. It's hard for me to sort indenting and so on, or to find where one reviewer's comments start and stop, when I have to go in to a FAC to sort something. If FAC regulars could have mercy on me, :) it would help if you would leave a space before starting new comments from a subsequent reviewer, and keep numerical formatting in order. Thanks for the patience :) [1] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:28, 7 November 2009 (UTC) - OK :-) Graham Colm Talk 21:03, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Pretty please, with sugar on top? Review an article? Awadewit (talk) 01:47, 12 November 2009 (UTC) - Any in particular you had in mind? I tend to do best when people ask because then they can't blame me if I say something they don't want to hear. ;/ Ottava Rima (talk) 04:12, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- See the list of FAC urgents above. Thanks! Awadewit (talk) 04:16, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- I see them quite frequently. :) I try to stay out of them until I can see a slowness or a dispute is over. Also, pile ons are never that fun. I was just thinking you may have had something that was hiding among the list. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:20, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
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- Ralph is Bak-shi for its ninth run at FA, if you want to take a look at that. DocKino asked me to weigh in after I registered several concerns at no. 8, but I won't get around to it this week, and ISTR you had some useful comments last time. Steve T • C 08:45, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- I received the same note and I cringed. Those FACs always tend to be a little intense. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:01, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Just noticed, the FAC for this article was archived and is now not included in the page anymore. What does this mean — did it pass, fail, or something else? The Flash {talk} 19:17, 15 November 2009 (UTC) - It was failed, since it is on a subpage of Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Archived nominations. It looks like nobody noted any real problems--the reason it was not promoted was that there weren't enough users who spoke out in support of its promotion, so that there was no consensus that it met the criteria. You should probably try again in a few weeks and hope for more support. Ucucha 19:48, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- Alright, thanks. That's surprising, though, since there was two supports and no opposes, but it makes sense nonetheless. The Flash {talk} 20:35, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- I only see one Support; can you point out the second, please? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:37, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- I also counted only one, but I now see that in addition to the support (ceranthor), there was also a supporrt (Pedro). Ucucha 20:56, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you. Because the bot hasn't gone through yet, I have reinstated the FAC. It would help if 1) reviewers and participants would follow FAC instructions, and 2) nominators would police their own FACs to make sure instructions are followed.[2] Had the bot gone through already, I would not have reinstated this nom, as there are outstanding concerns about the article sourcing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:06, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you, Sandy, for doing that. :) The Flash {talk} 21:41, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- Clarification on alt-text/image issues.
- could someone please clarify what's with the alt text, because Amanda and I are giving Flash different objections on this. I'm saying that it is not clear what is going on in the pictures, that they are not descriptive enough, and she is saying they need alt text that says who the people are, and the kind of portrait it is. So we need an image maven to add his or her two cents worth on this. Thanks! 17:34, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- I followed up there. Eubulides (talk) 08:09, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Civility Guidance I have a concern. Let me first say that while I'm not a frequent reviewer or nominator at FAC, I have a lot of respect for the process and the high level of rigor involved in it. And I also have no illusions that any articles brought here are perfect - smart editors work hard to bring articles up to speed before bringing them here but then fully expect them to be deeply scrutinized and criticized in a constructive way, and to sometimes fail. But I don't think anyone brings articles to FAC expecting to have themselves or their work just plain insulted or attacked by a reviewer. On both my own nomination this morning, and other recent nominations, I've noticed User:Fifelfoo being what I can only describe as hostile towards nominators and their work. While some of his comments are helpful, the overall tenor of them is often degrading to the people who have brought articles here, as when he wrote in response to a question about a source, "Please ping me when you've written the article to FAC standard?" or on another recent nomination said, "There is a level of insult in proposing an article in this state" (which he then deleted from the discussion entirely) or in use of terms like 'naive', or in another recent FAC when he said, "As you appear to have literacy problems, and are not familiar with the disciplinary practice of history..." - which is just about as clear a violation of Wikipedia:No personal attacks as I've seen on Wikipedia. FAC should be rigorous, but it should not be hostile. So my question is this - is there a civility guideline for reviewers anywhere? Geraldk (talk) 19:57, 15 November 2009 (UTC) - "I rely on Finkelman largely because his presentation is compact, but could add additional in-line citations to other sources I've used which make the same points if you prefer." Geraldk at diff. I feel my request to review the article once you believe it is well researched is a reasonable one, as you have not sourced material to where you found it. In relation to the other instances, the first I recinded, which is why it was deleted. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:52, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- Fifelfoo, if you have a concern about sourcing issues, you should politely explain it and, if you don't intend to watchlist the FAC, request that you be pinged when your concern is resolved. You should not decline to explain your concern (conveying by your refusal an apparent belief that anybody who doesn't immediately understand what it is must be rather dense) and then ask the nominator to ping you when it meets FAC sourcing standards (conveying the notion that you don't see how they could possibly be so dim as to believe that it already does). I know your intention was not to be uncivil, but to ensure that Wikipedia's featured articles (especially history articles) meet the highest standards of sourcing, but surely you realize that you did not go about it ideally in this case? Steve Smith (talk) 03:38, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- The other article reviews referred to are my deleted comments in relation to Ode to a Grecian Urn, which turned up with viral linkspam links until it was taken on by another nominator; and Nikita Khrushchev where the nominator and I had an extensive heated discussion, a continuation of prior non FA review forms, and the failure in comprehension given the density of attempts at expression became in my opinion either tendentiousness or a failure in literary comprehension. The nominator of Maryland Toleration Act hasn't been bitten here. If the nominator at Maryland Toleration Act would like to solve deep sourcing issues which go to their writing process and failure to attribute, then yes, I would be happy to look again. While I'm happy to workshop minor citation issues, I am incapable of travelling in time, space and identity to become a nominator when they were researching in order to write an article, and am simply unable to solve sourcing issues where adequate attribution has not occurred in the article itself. Your assumption of sardonic irony on my part is an extremely unusual assumption. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:27, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- WP:AGF precluded any assumption of sardonic irony; I explained what impression you conveyed (to me and, I infer, to Geraldk). Steve Smith (talk) 04:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- Well, I'm quite sorry about the impression made, and I'm personally working on improving my civility for excellence reasons. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:59, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use/copyright Hello strangers - not posted here for a long time. I've been working on Bayern Munich v Norwich City with a view to maybe bringing it up to FA status. I have a few questions on image rights that I'd like to get right now before falling foul at FAC or worse if/when the article should ever make it to Main Page. Would the use of these images fall below appropriate standards? - Q1 - A scan of the the cover of the matchday programme. There is only one official programme for any match. Many football followers regard them as notable and historic in their own right. Some can fetch quite high prices! However, while this could be referred to in the text, it's unlikely to be key to understanding the article.
- Q2 - A photo found on the internet or scanned from a book of a key moment from the match, such as the astonishing goal scored by Jeremy Goss? I strongly emphasise I'm not talking about generic portraits etc. Would low res or some declaration or indeed anything help at all? This would definitely help understanding of the article - Goss' volley is hard to describe, but made astonishing photos. (Here is a sample image from a RS - I might be able to find a better one)
- Q3 - A scan of a newspaper headline about the match - if referred to in the text and important in the understanding of the article.
I appreciate your help, thanks. --Dweller (talk) 12:50, 16 November 2009 (UTC) -
- These answers, as with most regarding the WP:NFCC, are subjective. Q1: will the program convey any information that could not be conveyed using text alone? If so, will this be on a subject that's an important part of the article? Q2: That sounds fine, if it really was a key moment and is described as such in the article. Q3: Unlikely, unless there's something about the picture of the headline that couldn't be conveyed by providing its text. Steve Smith (talk) 17:40, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- I would say that a headline, under copyright, is only going to be usable when it has become iconic, as in "DEWEY BEATS TRUMAN" or "FORD TO CITY: DROP DEAD".--Wehwalt (talk) 16:33, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- They were/are iconic? Never heard of them...Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:59, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Ah, like Swedes 2 Turnips 1. Or the infamous alleged consumption of a rodent by a second rate British comedian, lol. Thanks, helpful. While I think "Jerry sinks the Gerrys" is a nicely typical tabloid front page, I don't think it's iconic enough for more than a textual reference. But I will find a decent photo of his volley and include that with a fair use ratioale. As for the programme - would it help if I could get approval from the owners of the copyright for it to be used, ie Norwich City FC's programme editor? --Dweller (talk) 21:12, 19 November 2009 (UTC) I seem to have done something odd with the nomination regarding archives. I was trying to put a link in the text to the previous nom. Sorry Fainites barleyscribs 09:42, 18 November 2009 (UTC) Both Karanacs and SandyGeorgia are now treating "comments" as determining that there is no consensus for support. As such, I do not feel comfortable making any "comments" on any articles. I feel that such a system in which people can "comment" and a FAC closed before having a chance to respond or discuss with the person is inappropriate. If any one wants help on their FAC or an honest review, I will provide it to them. However, I will provide it only through email or off sight in order to ensure that it is not held against their FAC. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:26, 18 November 2009 (UTC) - OR, do you have a diff for this?--Wehwalt (talk) 16:29, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Ottava is referring to this discussion on my talk page, which involves this FAC that I closed yesterday. Karanacs (talk) 16:33, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Wehwalt - 14:57, 17 November 2009 Tony1 comment, 15:39, 17 November 2009 SlimVirgin comment, 20:50, 17 November 2009 Karanacs archiving. 6 hours and 3 minutes and 5 hours and 11 minutes to respond to see if the comments were serious or if they have been addressed. Neither user was around following the comments. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:42, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- (ec) This is not a new decision. All comments are taken into consideration in determining consensus, whether or not a declaration is attached. "Support" declarations are necessary, however, for an FAC to be promoted. I strongly discourage any back-channel reviewing methods. If you would prefer not to participate at FAC, then peer review may be the most appropriate arena for you. Article reviews are wiki matters, and should stay on-wiki in some format. Karanacs (talk) 16:30, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Most people do not change the "comment" when things have been addressed. That has been well-known. You can discourage any back-channel reviewing methods, but when you are going to hold things like the above against people, then this is the only possible way for people to get fair and honest reviews. You closed a FAC with comments that were made just a few hours before. There was -no- possibility for the comments to be addressed or to see if the people felt that it was a concern great enough to keep it from being promoted. There were two and a half supports on the page and no legitimate oppose. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:35, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- You are, as always, welcome to bring the article back to FAC in a few weeks when the concerns have been addressed. Karanacs (talk) 16:43, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- I have already stated my intentions here. If you are going to close pages that have two and a half supports and no legitimate opposes, then you are not abiding by the FAC standards. Raul let FACs go for far more than a month to allow for people to deal with comments when it was clear that there was no legitimate way to say that the FAC would fail. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:45, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Frankly, as soon as you posted this I thought that the outcome was inevitable. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:47, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- I've already had multiple Arbitrators ask me to put forth evidence and make a proposal about Fowler so they could effectively topic ban him from FAC. I declined per statements from Sandy and Raul suggesting that they knew his actions were done purely to harass. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:50, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- I haven't reviewed this particular article and I frankly think Ottava is overreacting not a little here, but
it does seem odd that we don't allow for a little more time when comments come in late--wouldn't it have made more sense to wait a few days to see if the prose concerns would be addressed? Ucucha 17:01, 18 November 2009 (UTC) - This wasn't the first time one of my FACs was closed without any actual opposes simply because reviewers didn't post early. It has been a strange trend over the past few months with multiple people affected. But now it is clear that they have been closed because comments are now being counted as opposes. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
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- The comments that set this off on the wrong foot occurred a week ago, and there were several others making similar comments about the prose quality during the intervening period. I think that Karanacs' close was perfectly proper and hardly unexpected given the initial negative reaction. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:12, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Fowler's comments have nothing to do with Tony1's or anyone else's. They were also put up in order for him to make claims at ArbCom against me, which shows an inappropriate use of FAC. Malleus, if you want to support Fowler, fine, go ahead. However, many people, including myself, Juliancolton, Iridescent, YellowMonkey, etc, have been harassed by his inappropriate actions and pursuit. Having him post an oppose which shows a lack of understanding of basic grammar on his part and then using it to claim at ArbCom that I don't know how to write within the English language is highly inappropriate in any regard. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:16, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- If I'm defending anyone here it's Karanacs, not Fowler & fowler. I've had a grilling from F&f at FAC as well, and although I didn't agree with all the points he made, I think that addressing them did lead to a better article. As it would have done in this case as well. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:21, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- (ec) Now that I've had a closer look at the FAC, my earlier comment doesn't seem an accurate representation of the FAC. There were several concerns that kept coming in, and several commenters did imply fairly clearly that they didn't think the article was ready for FA, so I agree with Malleus. Ucucha 17:23, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Except that many of his "fixes" would have added in problems with clauses, caused errors, and even his claim that things were "wrong" were actually his own typoes. Having him go around stating that he says all of my works have problems and I can't write before he even reviews, and then using his reviews at ArbCom to "verify" the above undermines any claim that his comments are appropriate. Even my co-nominator had a major problem with his actions on the FAC which he expressed at ArbCom. And Malleus, those "concerns" were not opposes and only three people responded, with one being most addressed and two just coming in hours before closing. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:25, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- The comments did not only come from F&F. There were apparently concerns about the article still coming in after a few weeks at FAC, indicating that consensus that it meets the FA criteria had not yet been achieved. Ucucha 17:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Not all of F&F's points had merit, I agree, but enough of them did to make their consideration worthwhile. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:34, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
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- I've had reviews from F&F and they have been annoyingly on target, and his or her comments and guidance significantly improved the prose. If we really want to improve articles we've edited, then why wouldn't we take advice from someone who can help us make prose better? I'm a good writer, but I know I can be a better writer and both Ucucha and F&F have offered me advice and comments on how to improve my recent articles on Cologne War and Hermann Detzner. Yes, it is frustrating when an article I've worked on for several months finally makes to FAC and someone posts a list of 15 issues, but it isn't personal, it's just review comments. A lot of articles come up for FA that are not ready and won't be ready if the editor isn't willing to accept an outside opinion. Dan Povenmire is a good example. It had prose issues, and editor was willing to work on them, and it is significantly better (I think it was passed yesterday, am I right?) Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:35, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- "There were apparently concerns about the article still coming in after a few weeks at FAC, indicating that consensus that it meets the FA criteria had not yet been achieved." The article was at FAC without any reviews for an extended period of time. 07:08, 3 November 2009 (UTC) was a support. The next comment was not until 22:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC). There were no outstanding comments before Fowler's. Slim Virgin comments on 06:46, 14 November 2009 (UTC) but it was addressed 07:59, 14 November 2009 (UTC). Johnbod says at 23:45, 15 November 2009 (UTC) "Nearly there, and covers the ground, but needs a good prose edit, and more linking". Work was done towards this. This was not an oppose. Tony1'st statement came 6 hours before the FAC was closed without any ability to discuss if any his concerns have been met. Furthermore, Tony1 is quite capable of making blatant opposes and he did not in this case. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:39, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
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- ... but neither did he support. You can't really complain about this closure in all honesty Ottava. There was a clear consensus that the article needed some work on the prose. So do the work and renominate in a couple of weeks, when it ought to sail through. Nobody died, it's just not anything to get steamed up about. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:17, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
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- ...if editors of FA nominations spent as much time dealing with reviewer comments as they did complaining about reviewer comments, they could write more, and worry less. Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:19, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
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- I can't complain about being given only a few hours to respond to someone? Where did you get that from? And what work? Tony1's statement mostly boiled down to him feeling there was too many uses of "the play" that may or may not exist anymore. If comments are going to be treated as opposed I want to see consensus on the matter. If, for any purpose, to determine what -my- "comments" have been considered, because I do -not- want them treated as opposes or any excuse to close a FAC. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:36, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Why can't FACs be restarted if the comments left are neither supports or oppose? It's just silly to close an FAC as "failed" when the article is FA quality, and there's just not enough people saying so. I've noticed this is done at FLC, so why not here? Majorly talk 19:39, 18 November 2009 (UTC) - We don't close anything as "failed" and that terminology has been passe at FAC for a very long time. We "archive" FACs for which there is no consensus to promote; they can always come back once previous concerns are addressed. Ottava, you are conflating two issues here: Fowler's FAC reviewing and Karanacs' FAC closing. Two different issues. In this case, some of Fowler's concerns were validated by other reviewers. Restarting isn't used when there are issues that can be resolved before initiating a new FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:45, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- (ec with Sandy) We generally restart FACs when they have received so many comments we can't tell what was going on, or the article has changed so much in the midst of the nomination that there is ambiguity on whether the previous statements still apply. Usually, there's a reason that a nomination hasn't garnered sufficient support in 3-4 weeks, and the article benefits from the nominator making further improvements after the process closes. If we were to hold all of the nominations open until they gained sufficient support, the list would be overhwelmingly long (I've seen it reach 100 articles); at that point, reviewer morale breaks down and it gets even harder to close the nominations. If an article hasn't garnered sufficient support, and either has opposes or comments requesting improvement or has no comments at all, that is usually read as no consensus to promote (not "failed" just "not promoted"). Karanacs (talk) 19:47, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- It's all the same really. If it doesn't pass, it fails - it is the same text used for FACs that do fail. There's no in-between. If there are no concerns, or all the concerns brought up are fixed during the nomination, please explain what purpose closing and coming back in a few weeks is? Majorly talk 19:50, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Speaking solely as a reviewer, there are times I leave comments but no declarations because I can't quite put my finger on what I think is wrong with the article. Usually (for me) this is due to prose that doesn't quite flow. Sometimes I start reading an article but the prose is not that interesting so I don't finish and don't leave any comments at the FAC. My recommendation to any nominator who has had a nomination archived with few or no comments is to open a peer review and invite as many people as you can (including anyone who wrote anything at the FAC) to critique the article. Then get an independent copyedit and bring the article back to FAC. This usually results in some improvement, and is often enough to get reviewers interested enough to further engage. Occasionally, there are so many nominations, or so many nominations of a certain type (an example might be 3 hurricane articles nominated concurrently, or 5 South Park nominations in the span of a few weeks) that reviewers are actively avoiding a nomination. In that case, when the article is renominated in a few weeks, reviewers are often over their boredom/frustration with that type of article and are ready to engage with it (or you may get lucky and have a few reviewers who were on wikibreak during the first nomination arrive back at FAC and notice this for the first time). Karanacs (talk) 20:02, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- The article clearly isn't at FAC quality. A cursory glance at the first few sections shows lots of stuff that needs fixing. Here's one very obvious and completely unequivocal example: "The 18 March 1730 Daily Post and in the 21 March 1730 Weekly Medley and Literary Journal ran advertisements stating that the play was in rehearsal." This article needs to be tidied up away from the FAC spotlight. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:49, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not talking about this article. Majorly talk 19:50, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Then what article are you talking about? If you don't want to say publicly, you're welcome to e-mail me for clarification. Karanacs has already answered for the case of Ottava's FAC: reviewer fatigue sets in, and the page runs to 100s of noms, if FACs that haven't garnered support are allowed to fester. A recently contested FAC archival was Overman Committee: consider Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Overman Committee/archive1 vs. Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Overman Committee/archive2, where it was successful after an archive. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:02, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- How about we make a rule that people can't review FACs just posted when there have only been three reviews of a FAC that has been up for a month? Or how about we make a rule that means that when people just comment that the FAC isn't closed after a few hours so it can be seen if those people who -finally commented- after a period of waiting 15 days have had their concerns addressed? Is that too hard to ask for? Ottava Rima (talk) 21:23, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
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- Malleus, that was not how it was in the FAC version. [3] "In the 18 March 1730 Daily Post and in the 21 March 1730 Weekly Medley and Literary Journal". I am tired of people altering pages to improper grammar and other people coming by and complaining that the grammar is not correct. It -was- correct. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:22, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- I note that "land-lady" was also in that version. Surely you're not going to claim that as correct? --Malleus Fatuorum 22:38, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Putting a hyphen between "land" and "lady" has been done in many works before. It is an English variant, just as "land_lady" and "landlady". Furthermore, are you going to say that is "oppose" worthy? Ottava Rima (talk) 23:08, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- That may well be true, but in the very same section it was also spelt "landlady". Consistency isn't too much to ask for. Is that "oppose worthy"? No, of course it isn't; it's something I'd expect a reviewer to quietly fix, without making a fuss. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:00, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- "to quietly fix, without making a fuss" - agreed. I don't mind if people change things. I try to keep up and check everything. I mind when other people complain about the changes though (which is annoying). But it doesn't matter anymore. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- "In this case, some of Fowler's concerns were validated by other reviewers" - I would like to see a diff in which anyone has stated a specific concern by Fowler and stated it is correct. His list of concerns contained not only "fixes" that were direct grammatical violations but contained things that were blatantly made up and not existing in the original page. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:22, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- :) Hmm. A lot can happen between lunch and dinner. (I haven't read the post upstairs, so please forgive any repetition.) Let me say that I'm well aware that my reviewing anything nominated by Ottava Rima is fraught with perils known and unknown. I did four reviews last week in response to Karanacs plea for help with the FAC urgents, and I picked the bottom four. Of these I supported two and opposed two. The comments I made at "The Author's Farce" were no different in tenor than those I made at "The Qiyan(?) Earthquake."
- Don't know how others feel, but I long for the days when Wikipedia was an avocation, when you could read a beautifully crafted article unencumbered by references and marvel at the anonymous writer's skill. Turning it into a vocation (
by students perhaps who think it will win them brownie points in real life?) has not been all for the good. Anyway, this is all I have to say about this. Dinner awaits. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:49, 18 November 2009 (UTC) -
- F&F, I'm a student, but in my wildest dreams I can't imagine getting brownie points for writing anything on Wikipedia. My doctormom is far more interested on getting my diss done than in learning what else I've been doing with my time. :) I just enjoy doing it, and I also enjoy reading the material (most of it) that I review. There does seem to be a lot of drama, though. As annoying as some comments are, if I am open-minded, most of them do improve the prose, fix the citations, etc. It's sometimes a matter of opinion whether or not something works, but listening (reading) other opinions and suggestions about what might work better doesn't hurt me, and has in many cases improved the article considerably.
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- OR, as for making rules about when a reviewer can review an article (with other articles in waiting), I'd be opposed to that, simply because there are some articles I won't review because of the limited wikipedia time I allow myself. If articles seem to come on and go off the list quickly, I suspect it's because there is (1) less to do to make them ready, (2) the editors hustle to do the suggestions without kicking up dust about their perfect prose, their sources, or their images etc (I'm not referring to any article or editor specifically, just generally), or (3) there is so much to do, an article get a speedy oppose. If we don't like it, we don't have to submit our material to FA at all. I'm always grateful to get reviews, given the demands on time. Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:53, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry, Auntieruth, I didn't see this. My apologies. I shouldn't have dissed students. We were all once them. I was tired last night and for some reason in a nostalgic mood. Have struck the ungenerous aside. Obviously I am very aware that many students write very well, you and Awadewit, to mention two. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:38, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Image reminder On the image description page, all images must include (in English): a short description of the image, a clear and precise indication of the source for the image (which includes enough information that someone else could use it to verify the image and license), the publication date of the image, the author of the image (often with his or her death date), and a license. Even if you are unsure about the correct licensing for an image, you can at least check to see if this information is on the image description page prior to FAC! Thank you! Awadewit (talk) 16:26, 19 November 2009 (UTC) - I feel that's a lot to ask of people, Awadewit. The author and date of death often aren't known, and aren't necessary if the image is PD for reasons not related to date of death. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 16:29, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
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- I agree. If the image was published in the Chicago Yellow Journalism in 1910 or if the guy was the White House photographer under Clinton (or one of them), taking pictures of Bill greeting his Oval Office visitors (ahem), there is no need for the date of death that I can see. Can be a real pain to find out.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:37, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- (ec)Agreed! I see, and get asked about, a lot of images from illuminated MS, where none of this actually has any bearing on the copyright status, once identification is certain, and all images, wherever obtained, must normally derive from the owning institution. Johnbod (talk) 16:39, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Please read what I wrote - I said often to cover the situation mentioned. This is a basic reminder for how to begin to fulfil criterion 3. It doesn't address every situation in detail. I'm at my wits' end with these image reviews and here is a good example of why - I can't even remind people to do basic work without receiving snippy answers. You can find someone else to do this work. I quit. Awadewit (talk) 16:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- It is easy to put "unknown" for author & death date, which "often" covered; but the source is also irrelevant one the identity of the item is clear. Johnbod (talk) 16:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Awadewit, please assume our good faith in asking these questions. Your work is valued.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:49, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Where were the snippy answers? SlimVirgin talk|contribs 17:35, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Does WP have any good documentation on what is required to be included on image documentation so that copyright status can be verified? I haven't really found anything. I wonder if it would be feasible to create documentation that would cover enough scenarios so that we can point nominators, etc. to one page to say "this is what you must have. you don't have it. let me know when you do." Would that help solve some of the tension at FAC over images? Karanacs (talk) 16:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC) - I raised on your talk page the question of Bundesarchiv images, where we rely on the German Government for the free status of the images. I commonly use them in my 20th century articles. The description pages are in German.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:02, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
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- WP:IUP. Awadewit (talk) 17:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
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- I don't think we should be asking more of FACs than the image policies require, because the policies already ask for a lot. We can't expect people to go beyond them. This gets back to the perennial problem of instruction creep for FACs. We should be cutting back, in my view, but at the very least, not increasing. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 17:35, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
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- We don't ask for more than the policies. We don't, for example, demand high-quality images, like we do for prose and sources. Articles can include the worst quality images, as long as the copyright on them is adequate.Awadewit (talk) 17:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
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- True, but I also think we can't ask people to provide more information that the policies require. It can take hours to find an author's name and details—or to find they're probably not available—and it really isn't needed if the image already satisfies the PD requirements. I'm against anything that adds to the FA burden, because the whole research and writing effort often falls on one person's shoulders. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 17:52, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- I have begun a proposal to remove one requirement - the "date" of PD art images - here. Johnbod (talk) 18:11, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
(ec) (unindent) I didn't realize that Awadewit does the thankless job of checking the image information. I do think that images in an FAC should as far as possible be "beyond reproach." They will likely be gazed at by more folk than more obscure images. I just looked at the first FAC in the list (Neville Chamberlain). There is frankly no reason for the kind of exquisite shabbiness found in the accompanying image information there. Consider, for example, File:Chamberlaincroptime.jpg, File:Joseph Chamberlain in colour.jpg, and File:Austen Chamberlain.jpg. The first one especially has dubious rationale. The uploader apparently checked the US Copyright Renewal Tomes at Project Gutenberg and didn't find Time Magazine's name there. So, s/he concluded that the copyright was not renewed. Whether or not that is adequate for Wikipedia is not the issue here, but a reviewer shouldn't have to track down the image information in faraway pages. Is it really that much work to have the information in the version that is added to the FAC. For example, consider File:British Indian Empire 1909 Imperial Gazetteer of India.jpg, an image I uploaded two or three years ago. There already has more information, up front, than the three images above. However, if I were using it in an FAC, I would likely add the name of the author: J.G. Bartholomew and Sons, Edinburgh, and change the license to PD-US-1923-abroad. Or, consider something I added a few days ago: File:OxfordDonCreighton1870.jpg (where the author is unknown) or File:IndianRailways1871b.jpg, which is from a personal copy. A reviewer knows immediately what they are looking at. I'm sorry if the one of the discussants here is the author of the FAC (I should have checked!), I have nothing personal against them, and, in any case, they didn't upload the images, but they can certainly move the relevant image information to the top layer (FAC article version), rather than having a reader or reviewer click on link after link. As far as I know, there is nothing in the Commons' rules that disallows that. I can see why such work will give Awadewit a big headache. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:24, 19 November 2009 (UTC) - Information about reviewing images is at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-09-22/Dispatches and Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-08-11/Dispatches.
- Image reviewer harassment and burnout is an old story at FAC: just ask Elcobbola :) If they all give up, FAC closings will be delayed. Please be kind to reviewers. (And does anyone ever thank Gimmebot? broken record alert)
- As a testament to the work done here by selfless reviewers like Awadewit, I can't remember the last time we had a big scandal along the lines of how dare you run this piece of garbage on the main page? It would behoove nominators and others to remember that, without reviewers, we don't have FAs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:39, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
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- Weighing in as the author of Neville Chamberlain, I always look at the images. I am not an expert on images or their rationales, and lean heavily on the reviewers to tell me where I've gone wrong. The three images in question, (correct, I did not upload them, though I did modify one of them) looked OK, so far as from where I could see. No one twigged to them in GA or PR. So I used them. I did take out one that had a PD tag that I was very suspicious of. Again, I'm not an images guy. If you want a certain standard to be met, it might not be a bad idea to look at the articles in peer review that the nominators say are headed to FAC. I do not blindly accept what image tags say, but perhaps you are expecting too much from writers without some intervention earlier in the process. Yes, I know, you don't have the time, I understand that and respect that. I'm somewhat at a loss to know what to suggest.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:52, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Very good point, which applies more generally to other aspects of the article that are assessed in the making of an FA. The image review needs to be more rigorous at the peer-review stage (just as the prose review does). Some people, in any case, don't get peer reviews, they're in too much of a hurry ... Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:59, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- PS. I'm assuming you do understand that although I picked your FAC as an example, I'm not blaming you. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:59, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- Of course. And I also suspect that writers don't see images as a "big deal" and are content to let reviewers be the backstop, it is easier to fix/replace than to learn the intricacies of image copyright.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:37, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- I've decided that I'm going to tell authors to get an account on commons if there are critical issues with images and actually mark them for deletion. It's easy to simply remove them from articles here, but by leaving bad images around you're letting other people make the same mistakes. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 18:01, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- And because authors have an imperfect understanding of image policy, they'll probably survive deletion reviews. Nor will authors be strong advocates. I see the point though, it was a relatively simple process for me to clean up the images in the Neville Chamberlain article once the issues were pointed out. Raising that price is one way to go. Is it the best way? I wonder.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Who, what? Given the present shortage of reviewers, and abundance of nominations, those who can't be bothered to explain what or who their article is about, if it is not obvious like 7th Infantry Division (United States), should not complain if they get few reviews. The following are 3 consecutive noms in their entirety: - Nicholas Mayall, "I am nominating this for featured article because it is in great shape, stable and complete"
- School Rumble, "I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it meets the criteria. The article has undergone several external assessments and a major copyedit."
- Carabane, "I am nominating this for featured article because all the suggestions made in the peer review have been implemented. I believe the article now meets all the FA criteria."
I have no idea what any of these are about, & personally I'm not going to leave the page to find out. Johnbod (talk) 17:23, 22 November 2009 (UTC) -
- Adding a note that the US holidays have traditionally been a time of FAC backlog.[4] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:27, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- Additional note: while the page is so backlogged, I'm moving big chunks of resolved commentary to article FAC talk pages. I hope this will encourage other reviews; even on a good connection, I'm having a hard time with the load time of the page, and finding few reviews that can be closed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:05, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- I think the "I am nominating this for featured article because" text in the template for FAC noms is not very helpful; almost every cause that could be given boils down to "I'm nominating it because I think it meets the criteria", which is somewhat tautological. Perhaps we should change the text in Wikipedia:Featured article preload to "This article is about..." and add a note on what is expected from FA nominations (prior history of the article, brief introduction to subject?). Ucucha 17:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- I try and add a sort of DYK-like hook to my articles when possible, give reviewers an incentive to actually read it ("Hey, there's something interesting here!") I feel it's a good idea to explain how you feel it meets criteria in some cases, and explain the article history to get people up to speed; for example, I try and preempt source concerns where possible. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 18:00, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- So do I. That's why there's the comment about the umbrella and the piece of paper in the Neville article. It is hard to get reviewers. The idea is to make people want to read the article, and the nom is a chance to get people interested, especially where the subject of the article is now well known.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:01, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- "Now well known"??.....aaaha - not well known. Yeah, snappy hooks are good...I try to - if'n I don't it's because I am fatigued...Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:58, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
- Easier said than done with tropical cyclone articles: "Uh, yeah, this fact is somewhat, kinda interesting... I think!" –Juliancolton | Talk 04:02, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
- I wasn't necessarily asking for striking hooks, though they can help, but at a minimum a very brief explanation of what the subject is, and why it might be of significance or interest -the latter also difficult for cyclones perhaps, but there we go. At least their subject is usually clear from the title. Johnbod (talk) 04:07, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] 2c during the deluge This is a general warning to the closers and other reviewers. The 2c quality of a number of recent submissions has been very poor, with Templates being used poorly, and major bibliographic concepts apparently not being understood. In part this is due to the reliance on templates replacing an understanding of manuals of style or bibliographical principles (Yes, its the "calculator" problem equivalent for the humanities). In particular people should watch out for confusion amongst |chapter= |title= and |series=. Similarly |issue= |edition= |volume=. Some bodies of editors have difficulty with the concept of how to deal with one work contained within another, where there are |authors= and |editors=, where there are |chapter= and |title=. Also, some editors feel that a |chapter= should be cited where there are no contained works authored by different individuals (ie: |author=Bloggs |chapter=Chapter 1, my boots |title=All things I put on my feet). Given that I have limited time to help workshop articles, and that time tends to go to articles with excellent 2c except for just these few problems..., I may be Declining articles on a 2c basis and not be able to assist nominators or involved editors in workshoping the quality of their citations. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:32, 23 November 2009 (UTC) - Fifelfoo - maybe you could write a potted version of how to do these things. I can't think of a better person to do it. I found it very difficult to work out how to cite those edited books with each chapter being a review by a different author. I guessed encyclopaedia. (It didn't work until I realised about the extra a in BE). It's unlikely that most editors will be familiar with the finer points of bibliographic concepts.Fainites barleyscribs 21:02, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
- seconded - buffing up refs is a big plus. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:59, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Editnotice Template:Editnotices/Page/Wikipedia:Featured article candidates: discuss. –Juliancolton | Talk 00:37, 25 November 2009 (UTC) - I'd suggest adding a warning or stop icon to the left (or one to each side), and maybe make the "Wait!" a notch bigger. Otherwise, I approve. --an odd name (help honey) 00:43, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- Done then. –Juliancolton | Talk 00:47, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- Nevermind, I just noticed the prior icon edit Skomorokh made there. You can revert if you wish. --an odd name (help honey) 00:49, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
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- I removed the warning icon as these aren't vandals we are trying to dissuade. Skomorokh, barbarian 00:52, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- Any way for non-admins to edit? Anyway, why is "Holiday Season" in capitals? Dabomb87 (talk) 01:01, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- Also, a link to User:Deckiller/FAC urgents would not go amiss. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:02, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- Done. –Juliancolton | Talk 01:23, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks. I think we can still improve the wording and throw in a few links. How about "Before nominating an article, please consider reviewing existing candidates, especially those listed on this template." Dabomb87 (talk) 01:32, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- That works. –Juliancolton | Talk 01:53, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Sheesh. FAC delegate can't even edit the protected page. - Before nominating an article, please consider reviewing existing candidates, especially those listed on this template. Participation generally decreases during the holiday season, leading to an extensive backlog.
I suggest removing the last line (about the holiday) because the FAC backlog is semi-permanent now that peer review items are taking over FAC, while substantial reviews lag. We might as well make this editnotice more enduring. I also suggest adding the following: - Also, please assure that you have consulted significant contributors to the article prior to nomination.
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:00, 27 November 2009 (UTC) - Done. :) Cirt (talk) 15:46, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you, Cirt. This edit notice barely shows up; might something be done to add a colored background? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:48, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
- What color? :P Cirt (talk) 15:52, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
- I dunno; it just need something to make it pop at the top of the page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:54, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
- How about this [5] ? Cirt (talk) 15:56, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
- Any color works, but could you also add spaces before and after the text to make it stand out more from the rest of the page? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:58, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
- Added some spaces. :) Cirt (talk) 16:00, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you, Cirt; it's "popping" better now at the top of the page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:06, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
- You are welcome. :) Cirt (talk) 22:07, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
A couple of things. First, should the wording in {{Editnotices/Page/Wikipedia:Featured article candidates}} be the same as (or a subset of) what is in {{Featured article candidates/editintro}}? (The latter appears when you click on "initiate the nomination" when following the usual recipe via {{FAC}}.) Second, should either editnotice (or both) contain a copy of the toolbox and suggest to editors that they check the article with the tools first, before nominating? The latter might help forestall some of the tedious discussions about alt text, external links, and disambig links. Eubulides (talk) 03:34, 28 November 2009 (UTC) [edit] Peer review vs. FAC Signpost Dispatch needed See Wikipedia talk:Featured content dispatch workshop#Peer review vs. FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:14, 27 November 2009 (UTC) |
