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[edit] Retrieval dates: redundant for sources with official publication dates?
This subject keeps coming up. There are extensive discussions in the archive: 1, 2. Please add new comments here, not in the archive. --EnOreg (talk) 14:20, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Say where you found the material
The old text was:
- It is improper to obtain a citation from an intermediate source without making clear that you saw only that intermediate source. For example, you might find some information on a Web page that is attributed to a book. Unless you look at the book yourself, your source is the Web page, which is what you must cite, in turn making clear that the Web page cited the book.
The new text was:
- If the cite is a convenience link, make this clear in the contents of the article itself. In such a case, as is frequently found in developing articles, it is improper to neglect to make the content appear as if the citation could be direct, when in actuality, the source is indirect (through an intermediary). For example, you might find some information on a Web page that is attributed to a book. Unless you look at the book yourself, your source is the webpage, and we are temporarily, and conveniently citing it. The clarification occurs in the article text, or in a footnote. As the cite source improves by being more direct, so will the content of the article improve in lucidity, (even if it only improves the lucidity of a footnote), for in place of the need to say "She says he says." type wordings, there will only appear in the article the fact itself (plus a small reference mark), as it should be.
I prefer the old text, as its clear, clean, short, and provides an unambiguous directive. I'm reverting to the older text. Fifelfoo (talk) 21:22, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- I must say I'm rather inclined to agree. In any case, I was under the impression that changes of any substance should be discussed here first, not made unilaterally out of the blue. -- Alarics (talk) 21:37, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm fine with the current wording and don't believe there is any indication there that a "she says he says" type contruction would be necessary. Christopher Parham (talk) 12:32, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- There will be no contesting from me, of the revert. The revert will stay.
- I will offer in another discussion (the way I might have proceeded initially), my assertions. Thank you. CpiralCpiral 02:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
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- There may be some misunderstanding of the main point here. The main problem to solve is not "I read the book at Gutenberg.org, and it's just barely possible that there's a critical typo here", but "Joe's blog said that the news story said... -- oh, but Joe's blog isn't a reliable source, so I'll just say I read the actual newspaper article. I'm sure Joe didn't misrepresent anything."
- The newer version appears to be rather more oriented towards convenience links than to the "don't trust: verify" purpose here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:05, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
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- Thank you all. I will not edit any "conceptually unclear" policy page while reading it for the first time. I'm new, and I must apologize for editing a policy page before discussing. (Hereafter the "I'm new." excuse will not be used by me for any reason.) Signed CpiralCpiral 00:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC).
[edit] Wikipedia maligns former president obote
I am concerned that the first paragraph in wikipedia about obote carries falsehoods and mudsling material about former Ugandan president Dr. Apollo Milton Obote. As a father of my country and a man under whose leadership Uganda acquired instruments of independence he deserves better description than given here. The authors of this information should have done more research before unleashing political information that offers nothing more than propaganda value. It is common knowledge here that under Obote's leadership infrastructure was built in the country, social services offered to all without discrimination and the economy grew by leaps and bounds. His first government was put to an end by colonialists whose apartheid policy, mainly in southern Africa, the Mulungushi club to which obote was a member had vigorously opposed. He democratically regained power in 1980 despite the machinations by the neocolonialists and their comprado allies who aided selfish men like Museveni to overthrow his second government. These and many other basic facts on the political history of Uganda should have been fully captured by any balanced researcher offering to feed information to the world. Thank you
Moses Nuwagaba (nuwagabamoses@yahoo.co.uk) Tel:+256753462152 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.0.7.6 (talk) 16:04, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- This page is completely the wrong place to raise this matter. Nothing stops you from editing the article about Milton Obote provided you can cite reliable sources to support what you write. -- Alarics (talk) 16:18, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
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- I suggest you discuss the matter on the article's talk page. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 16:36, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Several quotes from one source in one paragraph
If a paragraph summarizes a book review, say, and in doing so uses several literal quotes, duly placed between quotation marks, and it is clear that these are all quotes from the book review under discussion, is it really necessary to add the same citation again and again for each quote? For the purpose of verifiability, it would appear that one citation for the book review is sufficient. --Lambiam 22:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
- yes, a single quotation at the end of a paragraph is sufficient indication of sourcing and thus verifiability if only one source is referred to. If two sources you can get away with Fred says, Jane disagrees type comparative style and cite both at the end of para. Any more and you want to use more detailed referencing. If the claims are dubious or large, individual page references would be required rather than large page ranges. Fifelfoo (talk) 23:30, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Which page number in pdf?
I did a search in the archives, but didn't see this addressed. I'm citing a pdf, specifically this one
The page numbers of the underlying thesis don't match the page numbers of the pdf. For example, page 76 of the thesis is page 83 of the pdf.
Which page should be included in the citation? I can think of arguments for both options; wondering if a convention has been established, or if there is some obviously preferred choice.--SPhilbrickT 15:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- Usually, PDFs are also available in paper form, and the Wikipedia citation usually gives enough information for readers to obtain the paper form. The reader of the PDF can use either kind of page number (although the PDF page numbers are easier to navigate with). The reader of the paper document has no way to know how the pages would have been numbered in the PDF. So I favor using the underlying page numbers. --Jc3s5h (talk) 15:48, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- That's what I used, and that's why I used it. (I agree pdf numbers are easier to navigate, especially for a paper using roman numbers or appendix numbering).Thanks--SPhilbrickT 16:20, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- Both. But the primary page numbering should be based on the paper pages, and the PDF numbered pages included as a convenience as in pp. 110-112 [pdf pages 2-4] or pp. iv-vii [pdf pages 4-7]. If you're only going to provide one, provide the paper page numbers. Fifelfoo (talk) 16:39, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
