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Contents 1 Voting 2 It's not black and white 3 Move back up to policy 4 When others cast doubt 4.1 Lead narrative voice

[edit] Voting

Moved to Wikipedia:Assume good faith/Vote

[edit] It's not black and white

There seems to be a feeling here that if you're not assuming good faith, you're assuming bad faith. Is there no gray faith? If an editor continues to make bad edits in the face of all attempts at communication should we just smile and skip along our merry way claiming "This editor is doing what they feel best for the project?". I don' think so. I may not assume they're doing something because of malice, but we have to be practical and realize in certain situations after certain concessions and attempts have been made by users to rectify a situation that if an editor is continuing to make problem edits, we shouldn't be trying to excuse their behaviour with "AGF". We need to apply a "reasonable person" test to these kinds of situations. Think about the following situation: Editor A comes to an article and creates some kind of problem with their edit, (not vandalism, just a problem, poor sourcing, bad grammar, something like that) Editor B reverts/fixes it and leaves editor A a note about the problem they've caused (possibly a template if one applies) Editor A comes back the next day and either reverts that article or introduces similar problems in another article Editor B reverts/fixes makes another attempt to communicate Editor A comes back on the third day and repeats the same scenario Editor B reverts/fixes makes another attempt to communicate

Throughout this time Editor A never responded to a message nor left an edit summary. Should we blindly excuse the behaviour of editor A indefinitely? or if this cycle is maintained does there come a point where we say "Something is not right with this editor. He might not be violating any rules, but he refuses to communicate and is creating more work for others than the amount of content he's actually adding". Nowhere in that thinking is any of his actions attributed to malice, but some people would see that as a violation of AGF. There has to be a time limit in some scenarios where we stop saying "Its okay, AGF"--Crossmr (talk) 07:29, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Move back up to policy

I may be killing any political capital by posting this, but dammit it seemed like such a good idea.

It was dark and I was horizontal. I tend to come up with the best ideas in this situation. And then I fall asleep. I had the strategy all mapped out... contingencies, strategies, etc.

But I woke up and forgot what they were. So I'll just get to the crux of my thoughts: let's bump AGF back up to policy. There are good reasons for this, though I'm not entirely clear what they were... only that there are.

I know some of it had to do with IAR, albeit not in an immediately tangible way. IAR oldies might want to consider this proposal. Xavexgoem (talk) 22:15, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking about it, and while I wasn't horizontal (or even strictly vertical, figure that out!) I think I've got it worked out... And I say... No. I'm not sure why exactly, but I'm pretty sure no is the right answer.

On a serious note, though - there is no point in having a policy that can't possibly be enforced. No one can enforce good faith, nor the assumption of good faith, and when anyone has tried its just been trouble. Best to leave it as good advice. Nathan ^T 01:04, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Ah, some of it's coming back to me! One of the elements: we have a horrible time enforcing CIVIL and NPA. Both of these are largely a result of assuming good faith only after civility has been established. If a poor communicator says something that is both A) good, and B) nasty... it's much too easy -- particularly as this remains a guideline -- to cling onto the nasty bit and ignore the good. What say you? Xavexgoem (talk) 01:07, 28 October 2009 (UTC) I'd argue that Civility and NPA is actually only enforced 50% of the time, at best.

I think if the primary use of AGF as a policy is to moderate the enforcement of other policies, then the concept should be integrated into those policies instead. Policies should really govern actions specifically; AGF strays into legislating a philosophy. It's great as advice, but not so great as law. I think we've found that laws that primarily regulate thought are unevenly, even haphazardly, applied - and vulnerable to manipulation and a great deal of subjective interpretation. Wikipedia policies aren't law, but the idea of regulating a society is essentially the same - why repeat errors here that modern societies have learned from already? Nathan ^T 01:16, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Sound arguments. Would you repeat that when someone tries to demote WP:CIVIL from policy to the "gamed-up" essay it really is? Or would you be afraid of the wrath of Wikipedia's most CIVIL editors? --78.34.98.119 (talk) 01:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

(@Nathan)In what ways would it be subjectively applied moreso than it is already as a guideline? I'm going to be straight out: this is purely rebranding. A policy has more weight. This is a largely dysfunctional community, one that will ignore AGF because it's merely a guideline. Being that our options are limited, could this help? Xavexgoem (talk) 01:26, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

• Excellent idea: AGF should be policy again. Durova³⁴⁷ 01:24, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
  • If you'd be so kind as to expand on why? I'm still connecting my neurons :-p Xavexgoem (talk) 01:29, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
    • Because it's all to easy to thwart serious discussions with rumormongering nonsense that cloaks itself in the guise of wisdom. We've all seen it: User:Sensible writes "I disagree with this proposal because of...(pertinent diffs and reasons)", then User:Gossip follows with "The real reason Sensible opposes is because because I didn't support his FAC last month." A bump back up to policy would help short-circuit that kind of thing. Adds weight when third parties respond that last month's FAC is irrelevant. Durova³⁴⁷ 01:50, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
• Comment. If AGF were promoted to policy, then WP:AAGF should be promoted to a guideline to help prevent abuse. PSWG1920 (talk) 07:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Increasingly, WP:AGF seems to me to used by some naughty wikilaywerers as a virtual license to misbehave but be beyond censure by other editors. The policy would be more realistic if it had some examples of what is likely to be recognisable and taken by the community as Bad Faith. As it stands, it just reminds me of the attitude of school kids these days who know that corporal punishment has been outlawed, and so not only will they misbehave but they will taunt their teachers or other adults with cries of "you can't hit me! you can't touch me! that's assault! I'm gonna report you!" --feline1 (talk) 20:17, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] When others cast doubt

The third paragraph of the lead started very awkwardly - both these versions;

• When others cast doubt on their own good faith, continue to assume good faith yourself where you can.
• When others cast doubt on their own good faith or yours, continue to assume good faith yourself where you can.

This describes someone, weirdly, saying, "I have doubts about my own good faith", or, "I have doubts about both my own good faith and yours."

I've changed it to one of these;

• When doubt is cast on good faith, continue to assume good faith yourself where you can.
• When you see doubt cast on good faith, continue to assume good faith yourself where you can.

I would suggest that the whole of the lead needs re-written. It uses a mixture of first, second & third person narrative (is "Just as one can incorrectly judge ..." third person?). I would recommend second person narrative throughout - this is an instructional piece. HarryAlffa (talk) 21:18, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Lead narrative voice

As indicated above.

At present the first sentence;

• Assuming good faith is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia: it is assumed that editors' edits and comments are made in good faith.

This reads as telling you what the effects of the principle are, not what the principle is.

So in an attempt to stop the slight jarring with the rest of the lead's second person narrative I'm changing this to;

• Assuming good faith is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia: it is the assumption that editors' edits and comments are made in good faith.

Which simply states the principle.

I think the simple statement of the principle is better anyway, and would justify this change on it's own. HarryAlffa (talk) 15:20, 24 November 2009 (UTC)