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[edit] Religion

[edit] Comparison of Sinterklaas and Santa Claus

(Find sources: "Comparison of Sinterklaas and Santa Claus" — search, news, books, scholar, images )

No assertion that the topic, the comparison of the two, is notable. No reliable sources used, seemingly making it original research as well. Could potentially open the door for any number of similar "Comparison" articles as well, which would probably have the same problems. If anyone raises concerns about the dubious timing of this nomination, I ain't afraid of no ghosts. No particular objections to merging some relevant content elsewhere, but I'm not sure which page to merge what to. Ebenezer Scrooge (talk) 16:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Ebenezer Scrooge (talk) 16:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Popular culture-related deletion discussions. Ebenezer Scrooge (talk) 16:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

~~From a gut feeling,~~ Keep. I know there have been sources comparing the two. The thing is finding those sources so I can demonstrate the notability of the comparison. I'll probably revisit this discussion later this week. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:04, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Just dumping some links I still have to investigate the merits of, though it's becoming clear that at least the relation between christmas and sinterklaas has been source of research:

http://books.google.nl/books?hl=en&lr=&id=Q-kO4ehiX1UC&oi=fnd&pg=PA6&dq=verschillen+tussen+sinterklaas+en+de+kerstman&ots=mvvaDdDKbt&sig=6Ocr5T9eviKC1XeBE1HARRFMHK4#v=onepage&q=kerstman&f=false

http://books.google.nl/books?hl=en&lr=&id=gyBeHYkyqigC&oi=fnd&pg=PA4&dq=verschillen+tussen+%22sinterklaas+en+de+kerstman%22&ots=a5iCb1-Z-O&sig=XHJ6ATcj6kyhtnbc5N5_k3arPRA#v=onepage&q=kerstman&f=false Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:17, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Investigation of the second link, especialy around page 135, makes my keep resounding. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:24, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Keep, see the talk page--Narayan (talk) 17:30, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

WP:INTERESTING is not generally considered to be a valid argument in a deletion discussion. GlassCobra 17:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Delete I completely agree that they should be compared and it's interesting. However this is not the right way to do it in an encylopedia. Mention each person's article in the other so that readers can read both and do the comparing on their own. This will give them something to do while waiting for Christmas morning. Kitfoxxe (talk) 18:53, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

p.s. There are many versions of "Father Christmas." Even in the United States, for example, there are variations. There could be thousands of articles if we compare each one to each other one. Kitfoxxe (talk) 18:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

This comparison, IMO is different, in that this comparison is seriously researched (see my above links, which are unfortunately in Dutch). If the other comparisons have equivalent sources, they too should be kept. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:33, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Delete as someone's essay. Possibly some material could be put in Santa Claus if it's not already there. Mangoe (talk) 20:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Delete our function is not to make an active comparison, we take a passive role in demonstrating comparisons. We may report objectively on the comparison but doing the comparison ourselves is original research. I appreciate the sources Martijn has found, but I'm still hung up over the issue of a "compare and contrast" type article. The comparison between the two can be justly treated at their respective articles and can be done without having an essay article. Them From Space 22:29, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- I can certainly appreciate that sentiment, and would much rather see a "relation between Sinterklaas and Santa Claus" article, as it would be much more appropriate to an encyclopedia. For that to happen the entire article should be revamped. I believe however there is too much too say to put it in duplicate in the Santa Clause and Sinterklaas articles. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 22:50, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Reluctant Delete The WP:BLP concerns raised by the article are obvious, considering the time of year, and I think that the nomination does put people in a dilemma over whether they will or will not be on the list on Christmas Eve. Ultimately, though, one can compare and contrast anything with anything in an essay. I think that in an abridged form, a paragraph on competitors to Santa would be appropriate in his article, and some of this can be incorporated into the article about the Sinterklaas myth. Mandsford (talk) 13:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

BLP concerns? Sorry Virginia, but Santa Claus isn't real. Them From Space 19:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Whaattt??? But the editor of the New York Sun said...Mandsford (talk) 00:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment - An article on the development of these various charactes from Saint Nicholas might be reasonable. This article is not, however, that. Simply comparing details, without any indication as to why those details in particular need to be compared or what significance there is to them, is another matter entirely. John Carter (talk) 14:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
keep. I agree the current version is weakly sourced and more in essay style than article, but as Martijn Hoekstra states: there are sources. In response to some opponents: Sinterklaas and Santa Claus are very similar (it is likely Santa Claus partially evolved from the Dutch Sinterklaas tradition) but at the same time very different. That being the same and different makes a comparison (or relation) article relevant in my opinion. In response to the comment WP:BLP above; really, naming these characters living persons is original research in itself, and may tend towards censorship of things we dont want our kids to know. To the latter - too bad, a kid old enough to find this on Wikipedia should be adult enough to realise the neither Santa nor Sint is a living person. Arnoutf (talk) 20:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

The WP:BLP reference, and ThemFromSpace's straight man response, were both made in jest, of course. But it does bring up an observation about Wikipedia's policies. Consider this: If we were to go strictly under Wikipedia's rules concerning citation to reliable and verifiable sources, it would be difficult to find a published source that specifically states "Santa Claus is not real" (in that nobody wants to be the bad guy who tells that to a child); on the other hand, a Google search of news and books would turn up plenty of sources (including the famous editorial in the New York Sun) to support the opposite. Even worse, if we the typical Wikipedian believed in Santa Claus, suggestions to the contrary would be rejected as original research (based on the deduction that everyone reaches in childhood upon noticing the incredible similarity between the handwriting of one's mother and "Santa"). January's Visa bill is kind of a reminder that almost every adult is expected to be Santa Claus this time of year. Mandsford (talk) 15:08, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Delete. This is an essay full of original research. If someone wants to re-write the "comparison" later on down the road using proper sources they are free to do so. This version, however, cannot be kept. JBsupreme (talk) 06:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Diwe

(Find sources: "Diwe" — search, news, books, scholar, images )

Mythical creature, limited references, should probably just be a redirect to Iranian folklore. --SquidSK ^(1MC^•^log) 17:35, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment - after poking around some more, should probably be redirected to Daeva. --SquidSK ^(1MC^•^log) 17:44, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Tim Song (talk) 01:27, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. —LadyofShalott 01:32, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. —LadyofShalott 01:33, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I note that "Diwe" is listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/Hotlist of Mythology & Folklore/D3. LadyofShalott 02:00, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Do you have a source or expert saying this is a form of daeva? It seems very plausible; I just want to be sure. --Chris Johnson (talk) 03:40, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Religion Proposed deletions

Followship

[edit] Religion Templates

[edit] Atheism

[edit] Buddhism

[edit] Christianity

[edit] Saint Cyril of Alexandria reconsideration of the death of Hypatia

(Find sources: "Saint Cyril of Alexandria reconsideration of the death of Hypatia" — search, news, books, scholar, images )

Procedural nomination. PROD was contested (if not directly) on the talk page.

Original PROD rationale was 'This is a theological essay, not an encyclopedic article' Ged UK 21:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Delete. Clearly an essay (and a copyright violation if it has appeared elsewhere). EALacey (talk) 22:04, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Delete. Content fork and apology for the murderer Cyril. Copyvio from [1]. Glittering Pillars (talk) 22:08, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

That's not a copyvio so much as a (cited) quote. Ged UK 22:15, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure there are other unquoted sources. The bold line at the top of the essay says, "Saint Cyril of Alexandria reconsideration in the death of Hypatia by His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy of Damiette". Glittering Pillars (talk) 22:32, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 22:26, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 22:26, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Delete, a POV essay, regardless of copyright issues. Nyttend (talk) 23:53, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Delete, an encyclopedia is not the place for this. Constantine ✍ 00:12, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Saint Joseph's Catholic Church (Sugar Creek)

(Find sources: "Saint Joseph's Catholic Church (Sugar Creek)" — search, news, books, scholar, images )

I can't find significant coverage for this church. Joe Chill (talk) 02:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Delete fails WP:ORG. a non notable local church. LibStar (talk) 02:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Delete Per WP:ORG and WP:RS. Warrah (talk) 03:20, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 17:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iowa-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 17:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Merge to Roman Catholic Diocese of Davenport. There is useful information here, and that is the parent article where it fits. LadyofShalott 17:51, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Merge as suggested above. The information is clearly verifiable, but there isn't enough of it to sustain a separate article. - Mgm|^(talk) 13:55, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison of Sinterklaas and Santa Claus

(Find sources: "Comparison of Sinterklaas and Santa Claus" — search, news, books, scholar, images )

No assertion that the topic, the comparison of the two, is notable. No reliable sources used, seemingly making it original research as well. Could potentially open the door for any number of similar "Comparison" articles as well, which would probably have the same problems. If anyone raises concerns about the dubious timing of this nomination, I ain't afraid of no ghosts. No particular objections to merging some relevant content elsewhere, but I'm not sure which page to merge what to. Ebenezer Scrooge (talk) 16:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Ebenezer Scrooge (talk) 16:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Popular culture-related deletion discussions. Ebenezer Scrooge (talk) 16:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

~~From a gut feeling,~~ Keep. I know there have been sources comparing the two. The thing is finding those sources so I can demonstrate the notability of the comparison. I'll probably revisit this discussion later this week. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:04, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Just dumping some links I still have to investigate the merits of, though it's becoming clear that at least the relation between christmas and sinterklaas has been source of research:

http://books.google.nl/books?hl=en&lr=&id=Q-kO4ehiX1UC&oi=fnd&pg=PA6&dq=verschillen+tussen+sinterklaas+en+de+kerstman&ots=mvvaDdDKbt&sig=6Ocr5T9eviKC1XeBE1HARRFMHK4#v=onepage&q=kerstman&f=false

http://books.google.nl/books?hl=en&lr=&id=gyBeHYkyqigC&oi=fnd&pg=PA4&dq=verschillen+tussen+%22sinterklaas+en+de+kerstman%22&ots=a5iCb1-Z-O&sig=XHJ6ATcj6kyhtnbc5N5_k3arPRA#v=onepage&q=kerstman&f=false Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:17, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Investigation of the second link, especialy around page 135, makes my keep resounding. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:24, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Keep, see the talk page--Narayan (talk) 17:30, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

WP:INTERESTING is not generally considered to be a valid argument in a deletion discussion. GlassCobra 17:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Delete I completely agree that they should be compared and it's interesting. However this is not the right way to do it in an encylopedia. Mention each person's article in the other so that readers can read both and do the comparing on their own. This will give them something to do while waiting for Christmas morning. Kitfoxxe (talk) 18:53, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

p.s. There are many versions of "Father Christmas." Even in the United States, for example, there are variations. There could be thousands of articles if we compare each one to each other one. Kitfoxxe (talk) 18:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

This comparison, IMO is different, in that this comparison is seriously researched (see my above links, which are unfortunately in Dutch). If the other comparisons have equivalent sources, they too should be kept. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:33, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Delete as someone's essay. Possibly some material could be put in Santa Claus if it's not already there. Mangoe (talk) 20:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Delete our function is not to make an active comparison, we take a passive role in demonstrating comparisons. We may report objectively on the comparison but doing the comparison ourselves is original research. I appreciate the sources Martijn has found, but I'm still hung up over the issue of a "compare and contrast" type article. The comparison between the two can be justly treated at their respective articles and can be done without having an essay article. Them From Space 22:29, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- I can certainly appreciate that sentiment, and would much rather see a "relation between Sinterklaas and Santa Claus" article, as it would be much more appropriate to an encyclopedia. For that to happen the entire article should be revamped. I believe however there is too much too say to put it in duplicate in the Santa Clause and Sinterklaas articles. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 22:50, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Reluctant Delete The WP:BLP concerns raised by the article are obvious, considering the time of year, and I think that the nomination does put people in a dilemma over whether they will or will not be on the list on Christmas Eve. Ultimately, though, one can compare and contrast anything with anything in an essay. I think that in an abridged form, a paragraph on competitors to Santa would be appropriate in his article, and some of this can be incorporated into the article about the Sinterklaas myth. Mandsford (talk) 13:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

BLP concerns? Sorry Virginia, but Santa Claus isn't real. Them From Space 19:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Whaattt??? But the editor of the New York Sun said...Mandsford (talk) 00:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment - An article on the development of these various charactes from Saint Nicholas might be reasonable. This article is not, however, that. Simply comparing details, without any indication as to why those details in particular need to be compared or what significance there is to them, is another matter entirely. John Carter (talk) 14:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
keep. I agree the current version is weakly sourced and more in essay style than article, but as Martijn Hoekstra states: there are sources. In response to some opponents: Sinterklaas and Santa Claus are very similar (it is likely Santa Claus partially evolved from the Dutch Sinterklaas tradition) but at the same time very different. That being the same and different makes a comparison (or relation) article relevant in my opinion. In response to the comment WP:BLP above; really, naming these characters living persons is original research in itself, and may tend towards censorship of things we dont want our kids to know. To the latter - too bad, a kid old enough to find this on Wikipedia should be adult enough to realise the neither Santa nor Sint is a living person. Arnoutf (talk) 20:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

The WP:BLP reference, and ThemFromSpace's straight man response, were both made in jest, of course. But it does bring up an observation about Wikipedia's policies. Consider this: If we were to go strictly under Wikipedia's rules concerning citation to reliable and verifiable sources, it would be difficult to find a published source that specifically states "Santa Claus is not real" (in that nobody wants to be the bad guy who tells that to a child); on the other hand, a Google search of news and books would turn up plenty of sources (including the famous editorial in the New York Sun) to support the opposite. Even worse, if we the typical Wikipedian believed in Santa Claus, suggestions to the contrary would be rejected as original research (based on the deduction that everyone reaches in childhood upon noticing the incredible similarity between the handwriting of one's mother and "Santa"). January's Visa bill is kind of a reminder that almost every adult is expected to be Santa Claus this time of year. Mandsford (talk) 15:08, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Delete. This is an essay full of original research. If someone wants to re-write the "comparison" later on down the road using proper sources they are free to do so. This version, however, cannot be kept. JBsupreme (talk) 06:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Christianity Proposed deletions

Winchester Family Church (via WP:PROD on 12 May 2009)
Medway Family Church (via WP:PROD on 12 May 2009)
Tytherington Family Worship Church (via WP:PROD on 12 May 2009)

for occasional archiving

Evangel Family Church (via WP:PROD on 19 May 2009) kept, references requested
Church of the Holy Family, Singapore (via WP:PROD on 19 May 2009) kept
Rochedale Baptist Church (via WP:PROD on 13 December 2008) deleted
J. Brian Tucker (via WP:PROD on 30 October 2008) deleted
Massey H. Shepherd (via WP:PROD on 29 October 2008) kept
List of people and organisations in the Christian right (via WP:PROD on 11 October 2008) deleted

[edit] Categories for discussion

Category:New Testament words and phrases, sub-categories by language

[edit] Hinduism

[edit] Maza Chintamani

(Find sources: "Maza Chintamani" — search, news, books, scholar, images )

No evidence of notability Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:22, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hinduism-related deletion discussions. —Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:24, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. —Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:26, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Delete, can't find any third-party coverage. Polarpanda (talk) 18:56, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Veda Vyasapriya Swami

(Find sources: "Veda Vyasapriya Swami" — search, news, books, scholar, images )

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hinduism-related deletion discussions. -- -SpacemanSpiff 19:21, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. -- -SpacemanSpiff 19:21, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Delete Couldn't find any coverage of him in independent, reliable sources.--Gaura79 (talk) 11:28, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Keep Notable and well sourced article. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 19:23, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Keep per ism schism.Pectore^talk 19:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Tim Song (talk) 01:19, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Delete All sources are ISKCON sites except for a passing reference in a news article that does no more than list him as a speaker at an event. Searches away from these sites produce little or nothing. Mangoe (talk) 20:44, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Mangoe is right, there are no independed or reliable sources to support notability. Wikid ^as© 20:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Ism and Pectore failed to demonstrate that sources re independent (they are not) and reliable(they are not RS), and provide substantial coverage (again not even that). Wikid ^as© 06:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

[edit] Proposed deletions (WP:PROD)

[edit] Islam

none currently

[edit] Can one check why rare Images of Babri Masjid have been deleted

This mosque was brought down by Hindu fundamentalists, who are now very active on the page as a govt. report has indicted their top leaders.We had some images linking to the main article. All these images have disappeared from English version but are available elsewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.179.9 (talk) 11:05, 4 December 2009 (UTC) [2]

These images were found in the older versions of Wikipedia such as the ones hosted here: [3]

Any idea ? Can we sense erasing history here again? 81.100.179.9 (talk)

[edit] Judaism topics

[edit] Sikhism

[edit] Ontario Khalsa Darbar

(Find sources: "Ontario Khalsa Darbar" — search, news, books, scholar, images )

Church with no notability (closest thing to it is a teen being stabbed in its parking lot). Reads like an ad ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 16:35, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Keep'. Lots of references at this Google News archive search, with controversies such as a dispute over whether Sikh marriages can be performed in a hotel which serves alcohol and meat and a Sikh priest who stayed at the Ontario Khalsa Darbar, defying a deportation order. When you do a Google News archive search, enclose the phrase you are searching on in quotation marks, especially when the phrase is made up of relatively common words. – Eastmain (talk) 03:39, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sikhism-related deletion discussions. – Eastmain (talk) 03:39, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. – Eastmain (talk) 03:39, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Delete only minor notability. There are sources, and it does exist, but it has no notability. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 13:09, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Weak Keep. In my opinion, this is a case where the guidelines should be bent a bit. It is a significant establishment for the Sikh community in the Toronto/Mississauga/Brampton area, so my recommendation is more gut-feel driven than guideline driven. That said, the article is badly written and in dire need of a re-write. PK T(alk) 15:26, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Tim Song (talk) 01:37, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 00:53, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

A place of worship like countless other places of worship, no doubt significant to those who attend it, as is every other church, temple or synagogue. That does not make it notable and there is no assertion in the article that it is in any way notable (architecture? dimensions? age?). News coverage is about things that happened in the vicinity, not the place itself. Delete Emeraude (talk) 14:46, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Weak Keep. It just needs more one or two references...Rirunmot 23:42, 1 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rirunmot (talk • contribs)

Contents

[edit] Religion

[edit] Comparison of Sinterklaas and Santa Claus

[edit] Diwe

[edit] Religion Proposed deletions

[edit] Religion Templates

[edit] Atheism

[edit] Buddhism

[edit] Christianity

[edit] Saint Cyril of Alexandria reconsideration of the death of Hypatia

[edit] Saint Joseph's Catholic Church (Sugar Creek)

[edit] Comparison of Sinterklaas and Santa Claus

[edit] Christianity Proposed deletions

[edit] Categories for discussion

[edit] Hinduism

[edit] Maza Chintamani

[edit] Veda Vyasapriya Swami

[edit] Categories

[edit] Proposed deletions (WP:PROD)

[edit] Islam

[edit] Can one check why rare Images of Babri Masjid have been deleted

[edit] Judaism topics

[edit] Sikhism

[edit] Ontario Khalsa Darbar