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The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss existing and proposed policies and guidelines. If you want to propose something new that is not a policy or guideline, use the proposals section. Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.	Shortcut: WP:VPP
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Proposals	Discussions	Recurring proposals
Proposal to require new users to have autoconfirmed status to create an article Proposal to rename Articles for Deletion to Articles for Discussion, include the discussion of mergers. Proposal for targeted flagging. Petitions to turn on, and not to turn on, the Flagged revisions extension. Discussion on adding language about schools to the organization notability guidelines. Discussion regarding the spam blacklist and reliability of sources Discussion of "self-promotion and indiscriminate coverage" in the Notability guideline. Discussion on retaining the restriction against using the string "bot" in usernames. Discussion on CfD speedy renaming criteria 6 (disambiguation fixes from an unqualified name). Discussion on refining Community de-adminship (aka Admin Recall) to formalize a RfC. Proposal for achieving infobox-template coherence of properties in Wikipedia(s) Note: inactive discussions, closed or not, should be archived.
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Contents 1 Using AWB to remove "words to avoid" 2 SUGGESTION: Cross-reference between different language versions of Wikipedias 3 Commons/enwiki policy interaction 4 Wikipedia's "NPOV" != NPOV 5 WP:Censorship as a permit-all 6 Discussion before Reversion 7 watch list for contributions 8 email for watch list & money 9 A serious question about alternative media types as verifiable and reliable sources. 10 Signpost Policy Report 11 QR Codes as illustrations (2D barcodes) 12 Who is coming up with category names? 13 Question regarding disambig pages

[edit] Using AWB to remove "words to avoid"

Should AWB be used to remove wholesale words listed in WP:Words to avoid? The specific case here is the use of AWB to remove every instance of "untimely" preceding "death". While "untimely" does have POV connotations which has earned it a place in the words to avoid list, it does alter the meaning of the statement to remove it. The revised statements no longer communicate that the death was premature. Related discussion here and here. Gigs (talk) 19:20, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

IMO yes, but the last occasion something similar was tried under AWB, to my knowledge, led to this discussion and the parking of the issue as an unfulfilled feature request. So good luck with it. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:20, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the discussion link. As luck would have it, the same user recently did a mass change with AWB to change all instances of "passed away" to "died", so I guess history really is repeating itself. Gigs (talk)

That is what AWB is for. Kittybrewster ☎ 09:08, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

As long as care is taken to not replace it when used in quotes, I see no problem with this. Fram (talk) 09:25, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

← Please note that the "AWB" part of this discussion is irrelevant. No one (to my knowledge) has suggested that this be included in AWB's typo fixes or general fixes, or that an AWB bot be set loose to do it. AWB is just a tool which helps to perform tasks faster, easier, and more accurately. Similarly, the discussion linked to above is not relevant to this issue, as it was about changing "passed away" to "died" as an AWB typo fix. AWB does not currently do that, and I wholeheartedly agree that it should not.

As for the real question of whether the edits should be made, rather than repeat myself, please see my comments. Short version: yes, with care.

Also, please note that characterizing me as removing "every instance" of "untimely" and changing "all instances" of "passed away" is not true. I only make the change when it's appropriate. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 10:51, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't doubt your good intentions. The AWB part is not irrelevant; AWB is only supposed to be used for non-controversial changes that don't change the meaning of text. What you have been doing is both of those. You are right in that the earlier discussion was slightly different, but the discussion isn't irrelevant, the same concerns apply. There is no way that you can judge the context of these when you are doing 6 of them per minute. 10 seconds is not enough time for you to decide whether the passage is losing meaning by the removal of words. If you were doing these slowly and replacing "untimely" with "young" or "early" when it's more appropriate, or something else that, then we wouldn't be here. Gigs (talk) 13:37, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think untimely always means young or early or even unnatural or unexpected. Besides which, young is incapable of being defined in this context. Untimely is always pov and unencyclopedic unless it is part of a title or quotation. Kittybrewster ☎ 14:17, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia: the only encyclopedia in the world whose vocabulary gets smaller every year. A systematic quest to erase the existence of certain words in the encyclopedia is very different than simply having a style guide discouraging their use. Gigs (talk) 14:34, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Bad idea in almost every respect. AWB is only tolerable because most of its edits are non-controversial (e.g. a blank space before a comma). The idea of having the Usage and Style Police (USPol) patrolling articles in general for perceived lapses in style, taste or judgement is abhorrent. That's very different from keeping an eye out for profanities, obscenities or racial epithets that are a strong indicator of malicious vandalism. Let the editors decide, and if someone's who's reading the article for some other reason dislikes some euphemism, let it be hashed out on the Talk Page. If there be an Almighty, then perhaps all deaths are untimely, or all are timely, or some are timely and others untimely. And a death can be untimely for a group of people that the decedent has affected, or even for the decedent himself or herself, e.g. just at the point of finishing a masterwork or reconciling with an estranged loved one or leaving prison after exoneration from someone else's crime.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shakescene (talk • contribs) 05:44, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Agree: A bot should never, ever be changing "content", as in the actual text or wording of anything. Never. Period. Just because things are words to avoid doesn't means they're words that should be essentially enforced by oversight. The words are occasionally appropriate in some contexts, or used in normal conversation, as well. I'd revert any and all edits I ever saw performed on my edits in this way. This would most certainly never get wider community acceptance, either, given there have been several recent incidents of SmackBot operators sneaking in a change in reference formatting in articles and the bot being shut off immediately after discovery. General consensus was that even that is far too much involvement of a bot into the actual text or code of an article. ♪ daTheisen(talk) 06:53, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Datheisen, to be clear, we aren't talking about a fully automated bot, we are talking about semi-automated AWB-assisted edits. IMO many of the same concerns apply, but I wanted to point that out so that no one is confused. Gigs (talk) 14:30, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Gigs is breaching WP:CANVASS. Kittybrewster ☎ 10:02, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I notified the previous participants in related conversations in a neutral way. The discussion here had stalled so I solicited input from a few editors who had interest in the topic. This is not improper canvassing. Gigs (talk) 14:18, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

It seemed to me (on almost no information) to be a neutral notification. I don't think that I or Baseball Bugs was notified in the expectation that I or he would necessarily agree with the proposal, which we don't. —— Shakescene (talk) 19:26, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

No, I don't think any pattern should be set for the unthinking removal of "untimely" as in "untimely death." I don't approve of the phrase, but it is always possible that an instance can arise in which that phrase is perfect. Bus stop (talk) 14:38, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I concur with that. Using any sort of automated or semi-automated process to remove particular words is to open a can of worms. It should remain up to editorial judgment. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:41, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

As I've been invited to comment here: Removing such terms in a fully automated way (with bots or the "typo fixes" list) should be an absolute no-no, I think we can agree on that. I'm not so sure about semi-automated removal. In the end, everyone is responsible for the edits that he/she is making, whether AWB was used or not. Care must be taken not to make any mistakes either way. --Conti|✉ 15:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I think a better solution would be to have a bot look for this pattern and then record all articles where this happens (on a user subpage?). Then a real person can manually look through and fix it where necessary. The Wordsmith^Communicate 16:22, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I dislike even that approach. It's not the kind of thing that should be trawled for blindly. If someone actually reads the article and comes across a jarring, clumsy or inappropriate phrase that doesn't fit the context, he or she can edit it with the backing of a previous consensus on Words to Avoid. Other editors can explain why they disagree with that point of view, or what makes a particular death untimely. —— Shakescene (talk) 19:26, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Bots are supremely able to take reasonable prose and make it unreadable. When it comes to choosing precise words, I suggest a human is superior to any bot with an automatic response to seeing a particular set of letters. Collect (talk) 23:08, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I concur with the above comments against the use of bots or tools like AWB to alter language in a way other than fixing obvious typos. Individualized editorial judgment is always a must for phrasing choices rather than drive-by mass editing.

On the issue of "untimely" as a word choice, there may be better ways to express it, but what it most clearly communicates to me is that the death was substantially before the life expectancy for that individual's demographic at that time in history. So if used in that sense it isn't subjective. postdlf (talk) 16:40, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

In which case it would need to be supported by a WP:RS. Kittybrewster ☎ 00:52, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

We don't require sources for every statement on Wikipedia, only "quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged..." (per WP:V) and I think it's pretty clear that this policy envisions challenges being issued by a human editor, not a bot. --agr (talk) 01:46, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's appropriate to use semi-automated processes to remove words listed in WP:Words to avoid or any similar value-judgement editing. I'd like to see bots/AWB/scripts limited to specified and approved tasks that editors have agreed are completely non-controversial, (and when necessary thoroughly discussed, as for example the current date delinking bot runs.) --Kleinzach 00:51, 28 December 2009 (UTC) Upon review, I believe that in this instance insufficient care was taken to ensure that the meaning of the article was not degraded. I suspect that the fact that AWB was being used encouraged Mandarax to act carelessly in this project. This word is not empty of meaning and if it is to be removed, the surrounding context will usually need to be changed to ensure that the meaning nevertheless comes through. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:08, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I have never edited carelessly, with or without AWB. I am responsible for all of my edits, and I do not make edits with AWB which I would not have made otherwise. I inspect every edit before saving. Whenever I felt that there was a chance that removing the word would alter the meaning, or would not improve the article, or would in any other way be inappropriate, I left it.

Christopher Parham wrote: "...if it is to be removed, the surrounding context will usually need to be changed to ensure that the meaning nevertheless comes through." The whole point is that there is no meaning without surrounding context. If there already is surrounding context to give meaning to the word, then the word is superfluous, and if the proper context is not present, then the imprecise and emotional word has no clear meaning. Was the death untimely because the person was young? (How young must one be for their death to be considered untimely? Are the deaths of people older than the cutoff point "timely"?) Or was the person on the verge of doing something important when they died? Or did the writer feel that the death was untimely merely because the person was famous? Or was there some other "untimely" criterion? Who knows? In many instances, it appeared to be used in the most emotional and, in my opinion, incorrect, way: as a quasi-synonym for "sad", to describe the death of someone whom others cared about deeply, in which case almost any death at any age under any circumstances might be considered "untimely". The word is, at best, merely an emotional way of repeating what should already be explained elsewhere with relevant facts from reliable sources. These are supposed to be encyclopedia articles, not eulogies.

I haven't made any of these changes since I was first informed that someone had concerns, and after all of this dreary discussion, I don't intend to do any ever again. While I still feel that these changes are correct, I don't use AWB to make potentially controversial edits. Carefully removing the word where it added nothing to the article certainly seemed uncontroversial to me, especially as it was listed at WP:Words to avoid. Note that at the top of that page, it says: "Any substantive edit to this page should reflect consensus." Any reasonable person can thus assume that words listed there have already been discussed and have been listed there to reflect consensus. I followed the advise there, and used common sense, letting the word stand when it seemed appropriate. A previous discussion also showed a clear consensus that it was, indeed, a word to avoid. Anyways, I don't really have any strong feelings about this. I guess it doesn't hurt to have the occasional meaningless word in an article. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 08:40, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Heya Mandarax. I haven't actually looked at the edits in question (which is why I haven't replied here prior to this), and I know exactly what you mean about taking responsibility for your edits (People seem to jump at any chance to criticize AWB, probably because it's easy to do so).

I did want to comment about the language issue which is part of what is underlying this though. It seems that you're making what is essentially a minimalist argument regarding the use of the English language, above ("If there already is surrounding context to give meaning to the word, then the word is superfluous..."). to be succinct about it, I'd just like to mention that not everyone agrees with this philosophy. The point being, this is a style issue. I think that plays a part in people complaining about your use of AWB here, since the one thing that automation does well with language is to kill style, when it comes to writing. My take is this: you're as free as anyone else to change style, within certain bounds, but you need to be sensitive enough to the issues around such editing not to use automated tools for assistance. It doesn't matter that you're responsible with said tools usage, but the fact that you're using tools opens you to criticism. This sort of thing is essentially a political issue.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 08:52, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. The problem is that there almost never was any surrounding context to support the use of the word and give it meaning. The reader is left to wonder what the writer had in mind. Personally, this reader felt that, more often than not, the writer was either using "untimely" as I mentioned above, as a quasi-synonym for "sad", or was just familiar with the term "untimely death" and liked the sound of it and how "untimely" seemed to soften the word "death". The reader can check the age at death, and wonder if the writer might have been expressing their point of view that the death was untimely because of that. But it would only be a guess, and even if this is what the writer intended, readers should be free to form their own opinions about the timeliness or untimeliness of death, based on their own experience and religious and philosophical beliefs. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 10:23, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe you, when it comes to the actual use of the phrase and context. The specific phraseology itself isn't so much as issue for me here as pointing out the "political" issue itself. The one thing that I've noticed about Wikipedia is that it's really easy for us to be dragged into disputes over issues that are relatively tangential to the actual content, if you see what I mean (I hope that makes sense...). It's the fact that you were using an automated tool (AWB) to make the edits, and that you were systematically editing to persue a "stylistic" goal, which seems to have created the issue here. The validity of the edits themselves tend to become lost in these sorts of discussions. I understand completely how that can be (very) frustrating, but that's the reality which we are all faced with.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 11:32, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] SUGGESTION: Cross-reference between different language versions of Wikipedias

Yesterday I added an update to the list of commercial CD recordings of organ works of the composer Dietrich Buxtehude - and that was done successfully.

However when I now pause the mouse over the name of the artist whose CD recordings I added, Bernard Foccroulle, a bubble tells me there is no entry for that person. While it is true for the English version of Wikipedia it is worth noting that there is an entry in the French version of Wikipedia.

Is it not possible to re-configure Wikipedia to direct users to an entry that already exists in a different language version? Many people are multi-lingual and I think this would, in general, be a good improvement to Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.93.54.224 (talk) 05:26, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

You can do this through interwiki linking, though generally speaking (for a number of reasons) it's better to create a page in the same language. Read Help:Interwiki linking. generally you would do something of this form [[:fr:Bernard Foccroulle]], which gives this: fr:Bernard Foccroulle. You might also want to add a bit of text to warn that the user is about to click into a different language. --Ludwigs2 05:53, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

There's no need to modify the software: simply create the article (a stub may be enough), give it the interwikis, and place the {{Expand language}} pointing the developed article in the talk page. MBelgrano (talk) 13:53, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

ah... one of those well-presented ideas I wish I'd thought of myself. --Ludwigs2 14:21, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Is there any parallel template for populate category from language? For example, there's only one article in Category:Sicilian_musical_groups, but 30 in the Sicilian version. I've temporarily used the {{Expand language}} tag for Sicilian, but that really seems more for articles than populating categories. Suggestions? MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:31, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Commons/enwiki policy interaction

See User talk:OrangeDog#File:Scotland-Staffa-Fingals-Cave-1900.jpg.

A knotty problem has come up. Commons' image policy does not match our own, leading to problems when Commons images used on enwiki articles are edited within Commons' policy but not ours. What should the proper course of action be? Force Commons users to follow the policies of all wikis on which the images are used? Set up a task force to check every modification of a Commons image used here and upload an old version locally if necessary? Unify all projects' image policy? Stop using Commons? I can't see a sensible solution. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 13:50, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Apparently Commons' policy does link to ours (via a circuitous route), but the issue of what to do about it still remains. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 17:48, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

If there's a disagreement about modifications made to an image (in this case, coloring), people usually upload another file that has the changes. So one is the original upload, and the other is the derivative. On Commons, at least. Killiondude (talk) 17:58, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The appropriate thing to do with radical edits such as color correction on historic photochroms is to upload the original for recordkeeping purposes, then upload the edited version under a separate filename. Please link between the two and describe the edits. The file hosting page for the featured picture below has detailed descriptions of the edits performed.

Photochrom prints are a difficult example to use for discussion because few people understand what they really were. When media editors correct for fading and yellowing a photochrom's colors "look fake". The impression is correct: photochrom colors really are fake. A photochrom is basically the nineteenth century's version of colorization. It's a hybrid between black and white photography and lithography. They used sixteen color plates at most, which doesn't yield much subtlety. And sometimes the plates didn't line up perfectly or the ink ran. The example above is by William Henry Jackson who was the most important photographer to work in the photochrom medium. Photochroms stopped being produced commercially around the time when technology improved enough to produce color films.

If we're going to have a policy discussion on this issue, I really suggest using a different medium as example that requires less explanation. Durova³⁹⁰ 18:42, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

All projects use the images on Commons, not just this wikipedia, and each one may develop their own policies or consensus. If there's some disagreement on the version to use of a certain image (such as restored vs. original), simply upload it as a new file and mention the original. Even if it's the same "thing" (such as a reproduction of a portrait), it wouldn't be deleted as duplicated if the images are different enough. Commons respects this.

Have in mind that Commons is a project of a different nature than this one (an encyclopedia vs. a database), and some policies here would hardly make any sense there. Most policies are about copyright issues, and about giving projects freedom to decide on their own rather than to impose them which image to use. MBelgrano (talk) 00:31, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Can someone take time to explain (for me at least) what our policy says that is so different than Commons; and WHY that difference is important? Even though I have nothing to contribute to this discussion I do like to learn new things and keep up on the goings on of Wikipedia, and maybe the answer to my question will be useful for someone else who can contribute an insight.Camelbinky (talk) 03:07, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Some people here want us to use non-retouched scans of photographs. However, all material on commons is free content, and just like Wikipedia articles anything that is posted to commons can be mercilessly edited. So people sometimes retouch photographs that have been uploaded there. The exact same thing is true for these photographs if they are uploaded to enwiki: anyone can overwrite them with a retouched version at any time.

There is no real problem, though, because commons will accept a courtesy copy of the original, non-retouched scan alongside the retouched one, under a different name. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:30, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I didnt know that about Commons. I just go there and find images for articles I'm working on and occassionaly upload a new image there that Im going to use here anyways; I never knew they were getting "edited". Thank you for that insight. I dont know if I have any opinion either way though, other than that Commons, as a separate endeavor, should be allowed to make their own "rules" without us trying to interfere.Camelbinky (talk) 03:38, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

You surely know about the Neutral point of view that articles in wikipedia must have, no support or rejection from us, opinions described rather than manifested, etc. It's a core principle, one of the most important ones, so it serves as a good example. See here, neutral point of view applies at small sections but not to images themselves. This portrait of José de San Martín, for example, clearly exalts him, while this caricature of Darwin as an ape clearly insults him. However, we don't do anything at all to "fix" the images and turn them into "neutral" despictions of such people: they are biased images, but we accept them as they are.

There are countless other examples. The whole Manual of Style and related policies and guidelines have little to no saying in commons: having just images, galleries, categories and project pages, where would you apply them? Can overlinking or trivia sections ever become a problem there?

I guess that the only common thing between projects that would justify having common policies would be the topics related to accounts and/or user interaction. Don't make personal attacks or don't bite the newbies, for example, apply there the same as here. And of course, images themselves. Wikipedia can have local rules regarding to an exception doctrine for non-free images, but images labeled as free should be able to pass all related Common policies: if an image is uploaded here and tagged with a free licence, but fails to comply with policies such as Derivative works or De Minimis, then it should be deleted. MBelgrano (talk) 03:44, 30 December 2009 (UTC) Note: edit conflict

Maybe it's a good thing to recap the discussion on User talk:OrangeDog#File:Scotland-Staffa-Fingals-Cave-1900.jpg. One of the pictures that is used to illustrate the article about Photochrom pictures is File:Scotland-Staffa-Fingals-Cave-1900.jpg. The yellowing caused by aging has been corrected. OrangeDog objects to that. He feels that it does not accuratly display the characteristics of a Photochrom image, and he claims that it should not have been de-yellowed, because the picture is not an image of the subject (Fingals-Cave) but an image of a photochrom-image. My suggestion to upload an unprocessed image, with a clear title and description that it should not be restored by anyone, was not enough, and neither was my suggestion to use File:Oberammergau 1900.jpg which is unprocessed and survived the time rather well, and therefore more accuratly than the aged pictures shows the qualities of the photochrom technique. He could also have browsed the category Photochrom pictures from the Library of Congress, because there is an abundant supply of unprocessed photochrom pictures.

A 3d opinion was requested and it resulted in TransporterMan's advise based on the English Wikipedia:OR#Original_images page that the modification of the hue en luminesence of a photochrom picture violates the original research policy, and therefore could be considered a distortion of the facts or position being illustrated.

This discussion is about these two facts. Although there are plenty of possibities to illustrate the article, OrangeDog sticks to his objections to the state of one of the nine pictures used on the Photochrom page (although all of them have been modified to some extend). His opinion that the photochrom images on commons are not images of subjects but images of photochrom images is in my view narrow, they are both. And it is not meaningful to return a 1000+ pictures on Commons to there original state, just to illustrate one article. Furthermore, Transporterman claims that the English OR page applies to Commons, but Commons does not have an OR page. Besides that, there are incompatibilities between the English OR page and the other foreign language OR pages. A quick survey showed that they do not have an image clause on which TransportMan relied to make his statement.

I do not agree that photochrom pictures are solely images of photochrom images. I do not agree that the restoration of images, whether it is the modification of luminesence and hue or removing of dust and scratches, is a distortion of the facts or position being illustrated. I do believe that commons is there for all, and should be able to service the foreign language wikipedia's that do not have the Image clause incorperated in their OR-page. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 09:10, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't see where the color adjustment (or other restorative corrections, like cropping or rotating the image) of vintage photochromes amounts to an en.wiki policy violation. Clearly the provision in WP:OR#Original_images requires a manipulative intent, to distort the facts displayed in the original. While I'm not always in agreement with Jan's restorations on aesthetic grounds, I don't see anything where he can be accused of trying to alter the facts of the image. In fact, there are a number of examples of photochromes on the LOC webpage which have been scanned more than once, and which show that simple differences in scanner settings create a bigger variation in color settings than the corrections by Jan, Durova, or me. Nevertheless, I recommend keeping a record of intermediate versions in the upload history, so that editors can retrieve an unrestored version if they need one for their purposes. ~ trialsanderrors (talk) 11:45, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

My objection is on principle. That any image used to illustrate the properties (here colour) of something should not have those properties changed based on the editor's personal preference or original research. The original should have been left as it was, and a new version uploaded. That would have avoided the difficult-to-detect distortion of facts that occurred on the Photochrom article. The question is whether the editor should be responsible for the consequences of their actions (as on enwiki), or the person who stumbles across the problem. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 12:20, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing worse than using a photochrome to illustrate the color of any object, since all photochromes were colorized from memory in the lab, based on black & white photographs, and inaccuracies abound (cf. the flags in File:1897_Stockholm_Exposition_06231v.jpg). You're trying to impose a standard of "originality" that simply doesn't exist. We depend on our editors to upload their original images to illustrate contemporary objects and accept their decisions on camera settings and perspective as long as this is done in good faith. Nowhere is this considered "original research". The number of restored photochromes that have been granted Featured Picture status both here and on Commons also demostrates that careful restoration is an accepted practice. ~ trialsanderrors (talk) 13:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

The photochroms at Photochrom are not being used to illustrate the colour of an object, they are being used to illustrate the colours of a photochrom. Images have been changed so that their meaning has changed in the context of the article that uses them.

The modifications are not based on the user's original image and settings, but their self-admitted own research into what they think the object used to look like. How does one know whether this or this is more faithful to the colours originally chosen by the printer?

Take another example. Suppose that I improve an image of a person by removing red-eye artefacts. Certainly I have improved the image, as well as the article about the person. However, if the image was used at red-eye effect to illustrate red-eye, then I have completely changed the meaning of the image. If I had checked the image usage beforehand I could have uploaded my changes in a separate file, to avoid distorting the facts in other articles. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 15:19, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

But how can you tell whether File:Lichtenstein castle photochrom (LOC ppmsca.01193).jpg or File:Lichtenstein castle photochrom (LOC cph.3g04765).jpg accurately reflects the colors of the print? Oddly enough they are both original scans from the LOC website. If you have a concern that the images on Photochrom should be unedited, I recommend that you be bold and pick examples from the vast archive of unrestored uploads for the article. But none of this is a policy issue. ~ trialsanderrors (talk) 15:33, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

But people have already done that. The images were added to Photochrom before they were edited. Why should someone have to look for new images because others have changed the previous ones without considering the context in which they are used. The issue is applicable beyond this particular case.

Incidentally, File:Lichtenstein_castle_photochrom_(LOC_cph.3g04765).jpg has a colour reference chart, allowing the colours of the print to be exactly determined. A colour-correction using these reference colours would give a perfect representation of the print. The parameters used should be added to the description/summary so that they can be verified. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 17:27, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually that color reference chart is junk. The only thing it tells you is the degree of shift that existed at the time when that archival photograph was taken. Durova³⁹¹ 01:56, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

The underlying issue is that both Wikipedia and Commons are wikis – meaning that free content is subject to merciless editing. There isn't any way in the software to mark a page or file as unsuitable for changing, short of protecting it, which we don't do because of our wiki nature. Thus anyone can upload a new version of a picture at any time. Someone from commons has said above that they will accept a courtesy copy of the original file alongside the edited version, with a different name. That seems like an easy solution.

This is not really about commons policy, because the exact same problem of overwritten images can happen on enwiki. Our wiki system is not really intended for document preservation. This is why it's good practice to watchlist the images on articles that you edit. Commons will email you if anything on your watchlist changes, so you don't have to check your commons watchlist by hand. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:26, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

If an image in an article on photochrome is supposed to portray the natural aging of photochrome photos then to use one that has been "doctored" or "restored" does not fit what the purpose of the image is conveying and would be of no encyclopedic value for the article. If the image's purpose in the article was to portray how a photochrome would look after being restored digitally to bring back the color from aging then that would be ok. But a restored image isnt showing anything encyclopedic about photochrome if the prose is about how they age and naturally look without enhancements. If your just doing a photochrome about a particular article subject enhancing or restoring it doesnt affect its encyclopedic value, in fact it can increase the encyclopedic value of the photo in many cases. Seems kinda obvious logic to me... This isnt about OR, this is about what conveys encyclopedic content and what doesnt. That's my two cents and it seems so obvious to me that I feel like I must be missing something from the other side's point of view.Camelbinky (talk) 21:42, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

My concern is that there are many users performing these "restorations" and leaving no record of what sources these restorations are based on, nor what the exact transformations are that they have applied, and with seemingly little regard to the current use of the image. A double standard exists whereby edits to text content must be absolutely verifiable, but edits to image content can be anything you want as long as it looks nice. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 10:09, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

About the current use thing, the same problem happens with text. For example, even if article A says, "Additional information on this topic can be found in article B", someone else could edit article B so that it no longer covers the topic in question. I have seen this happen. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:27, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

This isn't written in formal policy but probably should be; people have been asking me to draft a policy and I've just been too busy to do it. But the best practice is this: if you want to make a major edit to an image, upload it under a new filename with detailed notes about the edit and link between the two different versions at their file hosting pages. The original version of a historic image is important in its own right; that's one of the ways images are inherently different from text. Durova³⁹¹ 01:53, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia's "NPOV" != NPOV

Here I am - and after a long relationship with this site, I've finally had enough of Wikipedia and its archaic, insanely immature collection of vindictive and non-scholarly crowd-following "editors" who do anything and everything to turn this potential wealth of genuinely useful information into nothing more than a trough of complete bollocks. No more can I deal with various editors (see 9/11 discussion for example) who seem set on arse-licking their own Government ("No sources? Oh that's right! It's fine! It's the American Authorities! Of course they won't lie to the public! Shurely?!") and being straight-out rude to those, any offence largely unintentional, who are far more schooled in particular areas of study than the trigger-happy 12-year-old editors who seem to be putting this website to shame these days.

I've had enough.

Goodbye. 80.229.192.163 (talk) 02:31, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes, the old "I'm smarter than you, but I can't prove it, so bye bye because I'm better than you" argument. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:56, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe I remember an episode where Perry Mason won a case with that argument...Camelbinky (talk) 03:03, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Of course judges and juries are too smart to be fooled by antics like that these days. Now much cleverer techniques have been developed, like the Chewbacca defense. — Kralizec! (talk) 15:14, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Someone using the phrase "arse-licking their own Government" after having just admonished everyone else for their immaturity makes me giggle. EVula // talk // ☯ // 12:13, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

And nothing of value was lost. Boy, the world sure seems to have a short fuse when you annoy the piss out of everyone with your attitude. --King Öomie 15:06, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

well, I personally think it's sad. for an "encyclopedia anyone can edit", we sure do manage to drive off a whole lot of anyones. but c'est la vie... --Ludwigs2 23:33, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

There are certainly cases where we drive off potentially valuable contributors, and I'm chagrined by those as well. On the other hand, it's the encyclopedia anyone can edit, but whether people will enjoy and want to continue editing when they realize the demands imposed by a collaborative, anti-authoritarian, (excessively) egalitarian environment is a different question. Reading between the lines of the original post, I'm inferring that the author desired a more positive presentation of certain minoritarian views of the 9/11 attacks. That advocates of such viewpoints find Wikipedia uncongenial is not necessarily a failing of this website, but more a function of its aspiration to be a serious, respectable reference work. MastCell ^Talk 23:49, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

yeah, I agree. I'm just hankering after a perfect world (as usual...). --Ludwigs2 00:08, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I think those anyones don't want to keep up with the debate. They really just want their 2 cents out there, not that it is substantiated or anything. While I must agree that the us gov't would lie, I do feel the conspiricists are more manipulated than ordinary folk with common sense. I watched 'Loose Change' and it uses media commentators as experts. I enjoyed the movie though ... Alaney2k (talk) 01:04, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

A lot of people would be happier at Everything2 or Knol, but they don't realize it, and think that because they CAN put stuff into WP, it's unfair that others 'take away their hard word on a power trip' (or whatever), when they are the ones who are ignoring longstanding policy and guidelines. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 01:17, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

What's needed is for everyone to have a "Me-pedia" where they can tailor the articles to exactly fit their standard of NPOV. Oh, wait, we already have that... it's called The Blog. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:25, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I've no desire for "2 cents out there" or anything of the sort; I've no gain from voicing an opinion on what is quite obviously an issue that has many - not just myself - no wishing to contribute to a site that for all intents and purposes acts as no more than a sounding board for the "anyones" who gleefully mis-edit and bastardise the sound, considered results of many a scholar. As an encyclopedia I'd have at least have expected less of the trigger-happy shooting down of so-called misinformation, otherwise perfectly sound within Wikipedia's source referencing guidelines.

It's double-standards. Is my point concise & clear enough for it to be understood?

80.229.192.163 (talk) 01:31, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I won't deny that wikipedia has an unfortunate amount of 'turf' mentality, and that wandering into some topic neighborhoods is a risky/painful endeavor. However, I think the encyclopedia overall does a pretty decent job, and there's always hope for the problem areas. If what you said above is true, then I think you ought to gird your loins, get yourself a registered username, and start (slowly and gracefully) trying to turn the bad things you're seeing into good things. Wikipedia is just like any other neighborhood: the more people who turn their backs, the easier it is for the thugs.

just for fun: I was talking to my mother about some online thing, and she (slip-o-the-tongue, I think) ended up calling it the 'internut'. That seems to fit wikipedia to a T - maybe we should adopt the word formally? --Ludwigs2 03:06, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

There will be fringe theories, and no matter how many ordinary folk believe in them they wont be true. For example- the majority of Americans can believe Iraq had something to do with 9/11 or that President Obama is a practicing Muslim. Both are FALSE. In an encyclopedia (which is what Wikipedia IS, it is NOT a community; ONLY an encyclopedia) it doesnt matter what the majority "believes" it is what is TRUE scientifically. This isnt the place where NPOV means "everyone gets an equal say and voices their opinions"; this is where science and fact reign. We need to keep the internut ideas to blogs where they belong (or to the voices in their heads, I took a poll and 10 of the 14 voices in my head agree...).Camelbinky (talk) 01:14, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. This thread encapsulates the usual lament of fringe POV-pushers who try and fail to inject their own version of The Truth^TM into Wikipedia. Flat Earthers, Creationists, homeopaths, 9/11 Truthers, Birthers, AIDS denialists, global warming deniers, UFO believers, paranormal enthusiasts, ultranationalists, and moon landing conspiracy theorists don't like not being able to present their beliefs as accepted fact, but that doesn't mean that Wikipedia is doing anything wrong. Fences&Windows 15:38, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] WP:Censorship as a permit-all

A really enjoyable photo currently greets visitors to Vomiting. Despite several people explaining at great deal that it simply provides no encyclopedic value to place it there, a single editor feels it is "censorship" to remove it. I have a pretty good idea what the end result will be, and wanted to get the opinion of more editors. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 03:38, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I did my part, for what it's worth (which is basically nothing). *shrug*
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 03:50, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Works for me. It just needs to be more apparent to this editor that censorship isn't an end all be all excuse for adding any content. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 05:08, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I can't see what the fuss is about. I'd have thought a picture of some vomit or vomiting was a reasonable picture to use on an article on vomiting. And I think the consistency and colour are interesting aspects. Really I feel this is getting back to covering up the legs of tables in case they offend delicate sensibilities. Perhaps it is time to put in a facility for people to set markers for their particular abhorrences so they don't have to be offended by anything they might see hear or read on Wikipedia. Dmcq (talk) 17:44, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

There are illustrations and images that aid understanding or represent something iconic or specific (as in an individual person or product) and then there are illustrations and images that are purely gratuitous. People arriving at an article should find something to aid their understanding of the subject, not to satisfy a prurient interest; I imagine there must be someplace else on the internet they could go for that.

As was suggested somewhere, if a diagram illustrating peristalsis were presented, that would be helpful in understanding. An artwork representing a vomiting ritual in history is the sort of thing that may give someone perspective on ideas about health through the ages or arguably harmful social rituals. Graphic photos of vomit differentiating what it looks like after eating various things, for example, is not the purpose of illustrations in an encyclopedia. While Wikipedia is not censored, neither is it MTV's Jackass, indulging in vomiting here and blowing snot there just because it appeals to some demographic.

I can't tell you how often I arrive at the article of a notable person wondering what they look like, and there is no photo there because of some bizarre fear that performers would object to being identified by widely distributed publicity shots, album covers, etc. being used in an article conforming to BLP standards. (As if they'd prefer being represented by the candid man-on-the-street shots in unflattering light from bad angles that are ironically preferred here.) I've been to general articles that, far from offending delicate sensibilities, look like they would scare the shit out of somebody (an expression an article needn't illustrate, but no doubt some idiot would be willing to photograph themselves in the process of). If there is some desire to present gross-out pictures, let's not kid ourselves why we're doing it, and put it in a more specialized article, like satellite articles, perhaps of lowest common denominator. Abrazame (talk) 19:01, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Please confirm if File:Vomit.jpg is the image you're referring to. –Whitehorse1 19:32, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Thats the one. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 23:24, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I was writing about the concept in general (as the concept we're asked to discuss by the thread title is general) and had not actually seen the image when I wrote the above. I have now seen the image and still can't see how a shot of vomit on a sidewalk serves the article. What does this image inform the reader about vomit? Please confirm that you asked me to look at the vomit photo because you feel it's relevant to the concept we're discussing, and not for the gross-out angle to which I was objecting in the first place, because I can't see the relevancy. I used to live in a major city, spent a lot of time out and about in the evening, and have seen a lot of vomit on the sidewalk. Abrazame (talk) 20:21, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

No, I will not confirm I asked you to do either. Because, in fact, my request for clarification was directed to the originating poster. That's why it was indented with a single colon, placing it a single level below the parent comment in the thread. The originating poster sought the opinion of more editors. As it was not possible to ascertain what image is the foundation of this discussion from a brief look, I requested clarification from that person. I prefer to find out the facts of a matter before giving my opinion on the matter. –Whitehorse1 20:36, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm all for adding topical images to articles, and if there's anyone that supports WP:NOTCENSORED then I'm decidedly in that group. I just don't understand how this is a meaningful picture for the article. Sure, it's (supposedly) a picture of vomit on a sidewalk, but so what? It's inclusion just seems... Abrazame said puerile above, which seems apt.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 21:57, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. The whole NOTCENSORED idea is not a get out of jail free card to place whichever image one wishes onto articles. If the image served any purpose (at the least having discussion surround it in the article), I'd not object to its removal. However, the censored argument aside, is there any reasonable argument for keeping it in the article? I see this as building consensus like any other image thats added to any article. The only case here, is that the image has a gross-out factor, and so an editor is using WP:NOTCENSORED as a trump card against the consensus of removal. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 23:24, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think either gross out or not censored should be used as reasons. The major consideration should be whether it is a useful illustration for the article. If people want to find a drawing instead of a picture I suppose it could be more useful if it gives the same information by the reasoning that less people with delicate sensibilities are put off but the major consideration is improving the information content of the encyclopaedia. Dmcq (talk) 10:47, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

The presentation of the vomitus is a good diagnostic aid, whether it is yellow, red, bits of black, green or whatever and how watery it is and whether there is food in it. It depends how well the article is going to be, I guess a diagram of the various types could do the job. Dmcq (talk) 12:34, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Personally I find that a description could serve just as well. "The consumption of W causes X reaction with Y enzyme, and vomit expelled following its ingestion will appear more Z".

However, a gallery of yak hardly provides any insight, or information. Only permission for people to upload the photograph of their drunk friend puking in the grass. A diagram illustrating the various pressures and body/CNS maneuvers that take place preceding vomiting would be useful. A picture of it on the sidewalk would not. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 23:25, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion before Reversion

Could we discuss certain edits before they are reverted, so everyone can come up to an agreement as too many edits are being restored after being reverted. This would be good policy to follow and keep vandalism to a minimum. Paul2387 (talk) 17:50, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Which edits? Examples? Fences&Windows 23:08, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

I asked Paul to reinstate this discussion after he removed it due to (I believe) thinking this is not the place for it. He did have particulars listed per Fences question; however I do think they arent needed as we can discuss the general question of- if an edit is reverted and then restored when is a good time to discuss it; ie- do you bring the discussion immediately to the talk page when reverting to give a headsup, do you bring it only when you restore, or do you bring it after its been restored and the original reverter wants to revert it again?Camelbinky (talk) 01:27, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I totally agree with Carmel as that was what was being highlighted in my question above regarding discussing reversion/restoration on the related talk page. Paul2387 (talk) 01:37, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

The question seems too general for there to be a definite answer, imo. --Cybercobra (talk) 01:40, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

This is the village pump, not the OR/N or RS/N or AN/I where definitive answers are looked for. The Village Pump's purpose is for people to discuss their opinions and see what the pulse of the Community is. There isnt a question to be answered; nor does there need to be or should be. The Village Pump is about getting ideas out there and making people think and putting everyone's thoughts together into a consensus that can be used in the future, whether codified as policy or guideline or not.Camelbinky (talk) 02:02, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

The question is too vague, it needs clarification to be a useful debate. What kind of edits are we talking about: unsourced; poorly sourced; disputed sourcing; poorly worded; non-neutral; potentially libellous; gibberish? What is the actual problem that needs solving here? Fences&Windows 14:57, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

(unindent). I don't think this is a good idea because it puts the responsibility for discussion solely with the reverting editor (also in the case of vandalism). It could as well be decided that change must be discussed first before they are made (putting the responsibility completely with the editor proposing this change).
Both options are some kind of "talk first - edit later" solution; that require a lot of effort from the editor having to do the talk. In my experience in over 90% of the edits (and reverts) there is no objection, so such a labour intensive necessity seems over the top.
Of course this leaves the edits that are made, reverted and then in the end are restored. In my view we do have a way to deal with this the bold,revert,discuss WP:BRD cycle, where an editor can make an edit with (or without) talk page discussion (but preferably with edit summary) another editor reverts (again without mandatory talk but preferably with edit summary). In the cases this does not lead to agreement, the next step would be to start discussion, by the editor originally proposing the change of the standing(=previous consensus) article version. (In my experience there is one problem with this, that either reverting or adding editor feels personally offended by the other's approach. But I don't think any change would help that.)
The Bold-revert-discuss cycles creates a little bit more work for those edits that are finally restored, but it saves a lot of work for all other cases. Therefore I would not be in favour of adding early talk obligations, not even to special cases, as this would make rules more complex and editors more likely to make mistakes in identifying which edits would require talk before reverting and which can be reverted without. Leaving vandalism up maybe one of the results. Arnoutf (talk) 15:40, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] watch list for contributions

If we could watch not just whole topics but specific contributions, I could have found the vandalism to my talk-page posts months ago. (Talk posts may be answered but the posts themselves shouldn't be edited by other than original posters.) I restored my original posts and the IP for the vandal shows up anywhere on Wikipedia only for one day, and the other vandalism was taken out by someone else. But it's still a problem in general and this can help.

Technically, the hook can include the page-comparison diff method.

The downside is whether someone who does bad content and scrams will thus learn of a change they otherwise wouldn't have cared enough about to visit to see, and will make more bad work.

If most people are good about these things, then the downside will be far outweighed by the upside, because careful writers will respond to bad changes and leave good additional contributions intact.

Only links should be provided and not full article texts, so users will visit pages, and watch pages will be shorter.

Thank you.

Nick Levinson (talk) 22:51, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you mean that you want to be able to watch article sections or talk page sections, rather than whole articles? mw:LiquidThreads might change how we watch talk pages. Fences&Windows 23:31, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

At present there is no way to watch specific sections of a page (see WP:Perennial proposals; you're far from the first one to think of it). —Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Stop... at a WHAMMY!!)} 23:37, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] email for watch list & money

Why not offer email for watched topics for a fee or for advertising exposure?

For free, people can log in at will.

You can use the revenue.

Email provides a convenience.

Advertising may influence editorial content, but Google and Yahoo have shown the viability of independence of editorial from commercial, and Wikipedia can do likewise. And Wikipedia itself can still be ad-free.

I speak as one who might not qualify to pay for it if you require payment to be online. It's still a good idea.

Thanks.

Nick Levinson (talk) 23:01, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean, a watchlist update delivered by email, say daily? I can't see why anyone would pay for it if it was developed. How does this involve advertising? Within the email alert? Fences&Windows 23:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

No. This would be, inevitably, a Foundation issue, not a Wikipedia one. -Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Stop... at a WHAMMY!!)} 23:38, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

We already offer the ability to syndicate an RSS feed of your watchlist, which is much more flexible - see Wikipedia:Syndication. Even if we didn't offer this, it's unlikely that we could make money off an email feed, and just as unlikely that we would attempt to do so. — Gavia immer (talk) 23:41, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

One of the few times I will speak in absolutes is now. This idea is logistically not doable - period. Because content at WP is under various licenses like the CC-BY-SA/GFDL there would be nothing to legally prevent any person from (a) redistributing a watchlist under the same license, (b) creating their own watchlist by means of a simple (slow) bot or screen scraper. There is no content at WP that can be directly monetized because the content is freely available under these licenses. Low Sea (talk) 15:51, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] A serious question about alternative media types as verifiable and reliable sources.

Please see this discussion. Low Sea (talk) 15:40, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Signpost Policy Report

An editor has requested comment from other editors for this discussion. Within 30 minutes, this page will be added to the Wikipedia policies and guidelines list. When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. This tag will automatically be removed after 30 days. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Naming conventions, Verifiability, Neutral point of view, No original research, What Wikipedia is not: click on any of these links to give us your take on one or more content policy pages, and a summary of the comments will appear in one of the upcoming Policy Reports in the Signpost. If it helps, monthly changes to these pages are available at WP:Update/1/Content policy changes, July 2009 to December 2009. All responses are welcome. - Dank (push to talk) 15:42, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] QR Codes as illustrations (2D barcodes)

I noticed a QR Code, a type of 2-dimensional barcode, used to illustrate the article Midi Onodera, and wondered if it made sense. QR Codes are widespread in Japan, and probably other places, as a way to present information, such as web addresses, to camera phones. For instance, a store or park can put up a sign with a QR Code, and customers or visitors can snap the image to visit the website from their phones. Many online encoders and decoders are available, such as zxing encoder and zxing decoder.

The article Midi Onodera is about a Canadian artist. As her portrait in an Infobox template, an editor added the QR Code for her website address, an image uploaded to Commons.

I searched Commons for other QR Codes. My search may not have caught them all, and I left out articles about barcode technology itself. (Search terms: "QR Code", "QRCode" and "Qr-code".) I found only one other Wikipedia article using a QR Code image:

• Assaí, Portuguese Wikipedia. The QR Code is below the Infobox in this case.

So, some questions:

1. Do the QR Codes add useful information to articles? My answer would be "no", since the web address can already go in the Infobox. Generally I think Wikipedia should include more information rather than less, but I do not see how QR Codes are useful on a web page, which already has clickable links. Perhaps every Wikipedia page should have QR codes in its "printable version", but that is a larger issue.

2.But what if the artist created the barcode as a self-portrait? Then the article should state that, and the image would be a great addition if licensed free.

3. If the QR Code is OK, does it belong as the portrait in the Infobox template? My answer would be, "it depends."

4. Is QR Code a free format? I get bored reading legalese, but here are previous discussions I found:

• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons_talk:Licensing/Archive_18#Barcode_images
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29/Archive_55#A_proposal_for_the_use_of_2D_barcodes_in_museum

--Colfer2 (talk) 17:21, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Who is coming up with category names?

Ok, I have a big beef with whoever came up with the category names of "Settlements on Hudson River" and "Settlements in X County" (in regards to New York counties). Cities, towns, villages, hamlets, and CDP's are all being thrown into these broad categories. First off towns in NY are large and have many "settlements" (in NY we call them hamlets) and towns cant really be called a "settlement" themselves. CDP's arent "settlements" either, and also may encompass two or more hamlets (in one case I know of a CDP that has three hamlets mentioned in the name of the CDP itself). The only thing in NY that can truly be called a "settlement" is a hamlet. If further breakdown is needed instead of cities, towns, and villages being in the "X County" category itself then I suggest using "Cities in X County" and "Towns in X County" and "Villages in X County" etc etc so the same types are with each other, with doing the same thing breaking up the "Settlements on the Hudson River" category. The term "settlements" implies that these places are something they clearly not and shouldnt be a word used for modern-day incorporated places. Not all geographic/political places are the same and a categorization scheme that may work in other parts of the US or world may not work in NY or other states (like in New England, Michigan, or Wisconsin where towns cant be called "settlements" and are different than "civil townships" of other states). I really wish there'd be more leeway in allowing Wikiprojects to cover their own turf and allow them to come up with things themselves instead of "conforming" to some larger group-think about how things should be organized.Camelbinky (talk) 20:30, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Consistency is ...

After poking around a little, our usage of "settlement" seems to come from Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements) and the primary human-habitation infobox {{Infobox settlement}}. You'd best bring it up in one of those places first, if you want to change things.

Consistency is not necessarily equal to group-think. -- Quiddity (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

In the discipline of geography as in WP (Human settlement), 'settlement' is the collective term applied to any place where people live, from hamlet to major city or larger. Hmains (talk) 22:32, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Well thats nice about the discipline of geography, however in NY we dont use it in that manner and I'd appreciate it if people didnt mess with categories they have no intention of working on the articles themselve. The most relevant Wikiproject to a topic should have primary responsibility for wording so that it is correct to that topic. For the articles I am worried about and the categories I have mentioned that would be the Wikiproject NY and daughter wikiprojects such as wikiprojects capital district, syracuse, hudson valley, and new york city. Using a word like settlements gives the wrong impression; NO ONE is going to call the city of New York a SETTLEMENT; it isnt correct and you'd get laughed at, and I took quite a bit of urban planning courses in college (at least 7 including the courses I had to take to become CADD certified) and I dont remember once hearing that a settlement is anything from a hamlet to a major city. In the anthropology courses I took settlements referred to rural fringe hamlets on a frontier.Camelbinky (talk) 02:35, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

the difficulty is that each state in the US uses the terms differently, and each country in the world has its own terminology. a reader or editor here may know intuitively the one for his own area, but is not likely to know everywhere else. If they are to find things in categories, the terminology needs to be universal. There have been a good number of long lame disputes about whether to call some place a town or village or whatever, and the fewer reasons we have for them the better. We're just a general encyclopedia, not the Board of Geographical Names. We want to be a good ready-reference, but not are not aiming at being a definitive authority. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DGG (talk • contribs)

Agreed, settlement seems to cover all cases around the world. WE can't define classes of things using the terms used in one region of one country. The definition of a city in the USA, UK and Spain (to take just three examples) is quite different, likewise for town, village, township, parish, townland, municipality, metropolis, conurbation, hamlet, community, commune, pueblo, etc. And definitions vary in different parts of all of those countries. We are dealing with over two hundred countries/nations/states on Wikipedia, all them have settlements.Jezhotwells (talk) 05:09, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

The problem is, though, that real people (as opposed to WP editors) don't recognize "settlement" as referring to towns and cities. I remember the days when I was a real person using WP, and having difficulty finding a category of cities in some country because it was hidden away under "Settlements in ...". I would suggest changing the "Settlements..." categories to "Towns and villages...". It might not be 100% accurate (some settlements are not even villages), but it would be much more helpful to the ordinary reader.--Kotniski (talk) 08:06, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Question regarding disambig pages

Do we have a policy regarding tagging disambiguation pages with projects other than the disambiguation project? If so, where can I find it? Purplebackpack89 (talk) 21:10, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Disambiguation will know. Fences&Windows 21:14, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

(Examples are always preferred, for clarity in questions).

Talkpage wikiproject banners? Add anything especially relevant. Eg Eid could hypothetically have a WP:WikiProject Arab world banner added to its talkpage, I think.

However, mass-additions should probably be discussed somewhere first, if you think they may prove divisive. -- Quiddity (talk) 22:48, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I have a feeling this is related to a content dispute that Purplebackpack was involved in, which I skimmed over earlier on ANI. Killiondude (talk) 08:11, 4 January 2010 (UTC)