Purge server cache - The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Jonas Brothers. (X! · talk) · @012 · 23:16, 16 July 2009 (UTC) - Mandy (Jonas Brothers song) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View AfD)
With no chart performance or covers, it fails WP:MUSIC, and with no significant media coverage, it also fails WP:GNG. Notability is not inherited. --Pokerdance (talk/contribs) 20:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC) With all due respect, I'm afraid I disagree. While I do agree in the sense that, indeed, notability is not "inherited", neither does notability create itself. Notability can often occur retroactively with regard to works that a person had done earlier in his or her career that did not become recognised until later on when the person had become famous for something else. A good example is Tennessee Williams, whose first major success was "The Glass Menagerie" in 1945; after this, he was a household name. However, he wrote quite a wealth of plays prior to this, with little success. Yet, now that Mr. Williams is an American literary legend, almost all of his works, obscure or well known, have an article devoted to them. For instance, two of Williams' early plays, "Fugitive Kind" (1937) and "Not About Nightingales" (1938) were not at all popular when first released, and were not even produced on stage for many years. To my knowledge, "Fugitive Kind" has still never been performed on any notable stage to this day. Yet they have articles devoted to them. Why? Because Mr. Williams is so famous that it is appropriate for even his lesser works to still have an area where they may be sought out and researched. Compared with the article in question, this Jonas Brothers song seems far more notable. Like Tennessee Williams and many other people, the Jonas Brothers enjoyed success after their second album's release, and thus the first one is relatively obscure. But since they are such a global phenomenon, it is more than appropriate to have an article devoted to individual songs even on this first album, such as "Mandy". Indeed, it makes more sense; one of Wikipedia's main strengths is that it is a resource people can turn to when they need information about a topic that may not be available elsewhere, such as information about this song. Indeed, it is for precisely this reason that I found the article in the first place. I heard it, wanted to read more about it, could not find much about it on most websites, went to Wikipedia, and voila! This is Wikipedia's strongsuit, and it seems counterproductive to take articles such as this down, especially when I have already mentioned how a precedent has been set with such articles as those about obscure Tennessee Williams plays which are nonetheless deemed worthy of articles. Besides, it is not as though this song were that obscure; it was released as a single, and its music video on YouTube has had over 3,300,000 plays to-date! If that is considered obscure, then I certainly can't fathom what you consider constitutes "notable". --R.h.c.afounder1 (talk/contribs) —Preceding undated comment added 05:38, 10 July 2009 (UTC). - Well, if you don't know how Wikipedia deems a song notable, maybe you could start here. Esradekan Gibb "Klat" 09:07, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- In additon, you'll probably also want to check out [[WP:N|Wikipedia's general notability guidelines. Rlendog (talk) 14:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- Redirect to Jonas Brothers Unless the song gets rereleased and charts, or someone covers it and it becomes notable, its not notable on its own. Put any relevant info in Jonas Brothers article, not that there's much info other than "It didn't chart" Dylanfromthenorth (talk) 13:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Perhaps it should be redirected to It's About Time (Jonas Brothers album) instead? Pokerdance (talk/contribs) 20:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- For the record, while it may not have been a significant cover version, this song was in fact covered by The Hit Crew and is available for purchase on Itunes. Two karaoke versions of the song are also available on Itunes. By the way, I took a look at the notability requirements for albums and songs. According to the guide, it says that "notability aside, a separate article on a song is only appropriate when there is enough verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article." Say what you will about this song's notability, but it is irrefutable to say that there is not enough information about it. Indeed, it is much longer and more informative than many article stubs I have seen. --R.h.c.afounder1 (talk/contribs)
- Exactly: verifiable material. There is only one reference in this article, and it's to confirm the release date. There is barely any sourced information, and thus this article is not notable.
- And The Hit Crew are not notable enough artists. The criteria involves two independent, notable artists recording the song. The Jonas Brothers are the only notable group to do so. Pokerdance (talk/contribs) 04:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- Comment - What is the basis for stating that "The Hit Crew are not notable enough artists"? They are notable enough to have a Wikipedia article. I am not aware of any guidelines requiring more notability (how much more?) for a cover band under WP:NSONGS than to have a Wikipedia article altogether. Rlendog (talk) 15:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- Redirect - after merging the first paragraph with Jonas Brothers. I don't think this article quite meets WP:NSONGS, even counting The Hit Crew cover, since the guideline mentions being recorded by "several" notable bands. And I am not sure that "two" necessarily qualifies as "several". Three definitely, but with two I'd want to see at least some other indication of notability, and I don't. Maybe that is the Jonas Brothers' first single, but that can be addressed within their own article. The second paragraph of the article would seem worth merging too if reliable sources can be added for it. But if multiple reliable sources are added for that, then this article should be kept under WP:N. As for the title, that should not be any problem from a redirect perspective. The title is consistent with WP:DAB and is the title any experience Wikipedian would look under for this song if they realized that there are several popular songs by the same name. Rlendog (talk) 15:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was keep. WP:SNOW close, with this many "Keep" votes, this is not going to result in any other outcome. Lankiveil (speak to me) 07:46, 12 July 2009 (UTC) - Triple J Hottest 100, 2009 (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View AfD)
A compilation of subjective votes, not a list of objective statistics, it is therefore a copyright violation by virtue of being the intellectual property of the compiler. It has been claimed that this is not a copyright violation since it's being written on this page by people listening to the radio over the air, and not by copying it from a Triple J official source, but the compilation itself is copyrighted. It's also claimed that this is the station's playlist, and therefore it is not copyrighted, but that is not true. It's also claimed that although this page says You may save a local copy or send it to your printer for your own personal use or in order to inform authorised and potential users about the ABC materials. However, you may not make any charge for such use and any commercial exploitation is expressly prohibited. You must include the copyright notice in any copy that you make. You may not modify the information found in ABC materials without the express permission of the ABC., since Wikipedia does not intend to use it for commercial exploitation, it's okay to put here, but that's not compatible with Wikipedia's licenses, and would make it impossible for this page to be copied by commercial forks, which is a violation of Wikipedia copyright terms. When I pointed that out on the article's Talk page, I was told, Oh my goodness this article is staying, just get over it, it's a list of songs, get over yourself . Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:58, 9 July 2009 (UTC) Also included in this AfD are: ---> There is no 1992 - Triple J Hottest 100, 1993
- Triple J Hottest 100, 1994
- Triple J Hottest 100, 1995
- Triple J Hottest 100, 1996
- Triple J Hottest 100, 1997 (Previous discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Triple J Hottest 100, 1997 - keep resolution seems to be a violation of Wikipedia copyright policy)
- Triple J Hottest 100, 1998
- Triple J Hottest 100, 1999
- Triple J Hottest 100, 2000
- Triple J Hottest 100, 2001
- Triple J Hottest 100, 2002
- Triple J Hottest 100, 2003
- Triple J Hottest 100, 2004
- Triple J Hottest 100, 2005
- Triple J Hottest 100, 2006
- Triple J Hottest 100, 2007
- Triple J Hottest 100, 2008
It does not include Triple J Hottest 100, which is the correct way to report these lists. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:58, 9 July 2009 (UTC) - Keep It is understandable that a list compiled by an individual or group of 'experts' should be subject to copyright, but the fact remains that this list is voted on by the public and the results are publicly available over a range of broadcast mediums. Due to it being a list compiled from public votes, the list itself should not be subject to copyright.Jimboss123 (talk) 00:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep TripleJ Hottest 100 lists have a significant historic value and are broadcast over public radio waves. The list is reproduced by numerous news organisations in Australia and around the worlds. Sesh (talk) 00:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Strong Keep Agreed with the reason above. Geshpenst (talk) 00:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Note: Keep is not a valid option under Wikipedia copyright policy unless all of these redirect to Triple J Hottest 100. Should an admin decide that they want to keep this, I will immediately list it at WP:DRV. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 00:51, 10 July 2009 (UTC) - Please note that this list is produced by a fully publicaly funded government broadcaster (the ABC). It is forbidden for this broadcaster to advertise and it can receive no conceivable revenue from this list (it does tend to sell a CD containing parts of hottest 100 lists but this page can't possibly have any impact on sales of that CD).
Even if the above copyright discussion is correct, and I'm not convinced that it is, I've written to the ABC's legal department to see if they can provide a copyright waiver. They should be willing to do so. Please do not delete these lists until I hear back from them. 152.91.9.115 (talk) 00:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC) - Funny they seem to think they have the right to copyright their material. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 01:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Although I agree that the copyright notice may apply to this list, it should also be noted that this notice was no doubt intended to protect other aspects of what the ABC does. ABC not only runs a number of radio stations, but also 3 TV channels and a large news gathering organisation. Not to mention the production of a number of Australian television and radio programs. I'm sure that they will give permission for these lists to be released into the public domain or under a Wikipedia compatible license. Sesh (talk) 01:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Strong Keep concur with the arguements already provided - the lists do have significant historical value - extremely notable. Dan arndt (talk) 01:51, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete as a copyright violation per nominator. Thryduulf (talk) 01:55, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- The argument for deletion is that copyright exists upon this work because of Triple J's effort in preparing and broadcasting of the list. However, Copyright does not prohibit the independent creation of a substantially similar or identical work, provided there is no actual reproduction or copying of the original work by any means.
The original work was presented in the form of a radio broadcast. The individual pieces of information (the song artist name and song title) contained within that broadcast cannot be copyrighted, regardless of the format in which it was presented. Copyright protects the particular manner in which the information was arranged and presented.
In addition, the information presented in the various list articles independently researched and written for Wikipedia. The articles contain additional information that distinguishes the article from the original work. The labour and skill of the article author(s) in compiling this information further distinguish these articles from the original work.
Keep --Camson (talk) 02:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC) - I think it'd be hard to argue that we are violating their intellectual property in reproducing the list when the list is clearly called the "Triple J Hottest 100", indicating implicitly that it is a production of Triple J, and links to the site where they publish that information themselves. We had a similar argument recently about the ARIA Charts and range of related categories (where I'll admit I was the one to raise the copyright question) and I sought a legal opinion from the Foundation's counsel on it which basically said it was defensible (it's a case of not going overboard with the thing and keeping within sane limits, I guess.) Orderinchaos 03:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep See IceTV Pty Limited v Nine Network Australia Pty Limited 2009 HCA 14 (22 April 2009) para 42 and 43 for the Australian High Court's view on what constitutes originality in the expression of factual information. In this instance the only part that is original is the ordering of the songs. This material in this list is highly similar to that of the IceTV case, which the High Court has ruled did not violate copyright. Joshua mckinney (talk) 02:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Billboard_Year-End_Hot_100_singles_of_2008 for a recent US chart that had similar copyright concerns where wikipedia's decision was to keep the article. Joshua mckinney (talk) 03:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Billboard Year-End Hot 100 singles of 2008 has nothing to do with this, since the Billboard list is based on sales, not a subjective vote. And the IceTV case again has nothing to do with this, since that has nothing to do with a subjective vote. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:32, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- So we should delete all election results in Wikipedia as well? They are afterall a list of political parties ranked by a 'subjective vote'. Meatsacks (talk) 07:13, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- The compilation that you are asserting is a covio is a not the individual subjective votes, but is the collection of facts that have been generated by people that have gathered that information. The page under discussion presents that each fact as 1. Artist - Title. This form of presentation is "not a form of expression which requires particular mental effort or exertion" to quote the HCA decision mentioned previously. In addition the decision states: "Whether a selection or arrangement of elements constitutes a substantial part of a work depends on the degree of originality of that selection or arrangement[59]. In this case, a chronological arrangement of times at which programmes will be broadcast is obvious and prosaic, and plainly lacks the requisite originality.". In a similar fashion, an ordinal arrangement of tracks which have been voted on by the public in the order by which they have been voted is likely to satisfy the same logical standard.Joshua mckinney (talk) 07:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Why is a list compiled from me (and thousands of others) buying a single or album any different in its compilation than a list of songs compiled from me (and others) submitting a web form indicating a preference for songs? Both are subjective... If anything Triple J are using other people's work insomuch as deciding a favourite song is some minimal effort on the part of voters (although presumably they agree to grant the ABC a right to use the vote for their poll). My opinion of my favourite song is subjective, yes, but comparison analysis of thousands of sales/opinions/votes constitute a fact. --Canley (talk) 11:18, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Strong Keep based on the arguments above, unless the ABC writes back saying we can't do it. This AfD is ridiculous. Pwrong (talk) 03:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Strong Stong Keep for all Hottest 100 articles - based on arguments above re: NOT violation of copyright, and in being a very significant historical event in Australian music and radio. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.29.89.49 (talk) 03:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep per above arguments. Rebecca (talk) 03:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep but perhaps restructure - it's not a copyright violation, but needs to be presented in a fashion which appropriately represents Wikipedia policy. The Triple J Hottest 100 is one of the largest radio polls in the world, and songs which perform well on it wear it as a badge of honour, so there's no question of notability. Orderinchaos 03:19, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep I don't think this is at all a clear cut case of copyright violation as the nominator seems to think. The IceTV v. Nine Network decision of the High Court of Australia cited above seems to be the most reasonable precedent to apply in this case, and other Australian media outlets (such as the Sydney Morning Heraldand the Herald Sun) seem to have no problems with reproducing the lists in their entirety. If they did so with the ABC's permission, then surely it is possible that such permission can be obtained for Wikipedia. As someone said on the discussion page, should we not publish election results for copyright reasons? They are also compiled from public voting by an Australian government organisation. --Canley (talk) 03:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep If you gather the facts yourself, the collection is not copyright, as interpreted by Finkelstein in Telstra Corporation Ltd v Desktop Marketing Systems Pty Ltd. See [1] ... "Copyright protection did not extend to the facts themselves, so that a third person could publish the same facts, provided he collected the facts himself and did not copy them from another work." cojoco (talk) 06:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Once again, you people are not getting it. This is not a list of facts, this is a list of vote results. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:35, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- How does this differ from the 81st_Academy_Awards, also a list of vote results? Joshua mckinney (talk) 07:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- A vote result is a fact. Pwrong (talk) 08:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- I concur, and to quote the OP: Oh my goodness this article is staying, just get over it, it's a list of songs, get over yourself. What next, delete the list of US presidents? FivePointPalmExplodingHeart (talk) 11:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- OTRS ticket received at Ticket:2009071010018621 from ABC Aust. They are interested in granting permission, inasmuch as it is required. Stifle (talk) 08:20, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
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- Thanks for the notification of this, and thanks to whoever contacted the ABC about this. --Canley (talk) 11:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep This is no different to recording the results of an election- does Wikipedia need to count the votes itself to be legally allowed to post them? --Mossmaal (talk) 12:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Email reply from Triple J"Thanks for letting us know about the debate surrounding the Hottest 100 on wikipedia. We have contacted them via the email link that you provided letting them know that we have no problem with those lists being available on wikipedia." - Direct quote from an email i received from Triple J themselves regarding this topic. So given this, the action for deletion should be halted as they are willing to give an exemption for wikipedia to reproduce their lists.Jimboss123 (talk) 13:55, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Response - that's not a valid release; it's like a "only on Wikipedia" release for an image; we can't accept those. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- And this needs to be addressed to WP:OTRS. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 22:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- It has been sent to WP:OTRS, that was the link referred to in the quote i made above, i just put it here to update people on Triple J's stance on this issue.Jimboss123 (talk) 23:40, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep - regardless of the copyvio/OTRS allowance issue, the topic is notable. Whether the full list should be included in the article is a question not for AFD - it's for the real (not us amateur wikilayers) to decide in another forum.The-Pope (talk) 02:29, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep - since the person suggesting that we delete this is a turkey, and turkeys should not have a say in what happens. 203.192.80.31 (talk) 03:28, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Nice. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 05:04, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
You know, I have no problem with keeping these lists if ABC releases them. Until such a time, they're a copyright violation. Why people feel this has to be taken personally, I don't understand. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 05:07, 11 July 2009 (UTC) - Probably because it's painfully obvious Triple J / The ABC have no problem with them being thereand yet you're persisting they should be deleted Geshpenst (talk) 05:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- And I don't understand why you chose to bring a sectional copyvio issue to afd. The article(s) are notable - they should exist and cover the issues/timing/number of votes etc of each year's vote. Whether or not the full list is published is a separate issue for the real lawyers to sort out.The-Pope (talk) 05:21, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Really? I tried to db-copyvio the 2009 one, but that got reverted. How else would this be resolved? Copyright violations are taken to AfD all the time, this is the appropriate venue. And you haven't answered my question as to why this is so personal that people feel the need to assume bad faith and make attacks. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 05:29, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- No one is attacking you - just disagreeing with you. To be fair, if the ABC doesnt have an issue with it, then there is no reason to delete the artice. As has been stated on numerous occasions, it is a significant article that has been referenced. The list is made public as soon as it it broadcast on the friggin radio! Just because it is being recorded on wiki does not make it a violation of copyright. You're not being attacked, you're just being stongly disagreed with on a ridiculous proposition... Take a teaspoon of cement and harden up princess - Ck786 (talk) 06:21, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
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- Probably because it is personal. It's our ABC, my 8 cents (or $1.20 with inflation) a week, my vote that got that song in the top 100, my triple j rocks etc etc. Not that any of that excuses personal insults, of course. florrie 06:25, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
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- Nobody's attacking me? Really? Who then was a gentleman?=OWN3D... That is all... Keep - Ck786 Keep - since the person suggesting that we delete this is a turkey, and turkeys should not have a say in what happens. 203.192.80.31 Not to mention your dickish comment right above this. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:28, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- "Not to mention your dickish comment right above this. Who then was a gentleman?" - Is this not a personal attack of your own?? Fail. Stop winging... Ck786 (talk) 06:39, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep Notable event, notable lists and the source is attributed. florrie 06:01, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
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- More history here: http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hottest100_08/history.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ck786 (talk • contribs) 06:33, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
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- So what? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:31, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- "You must include the copyright notice in any copy that you make." The source is cited therefore the information can be reproduced here... Its not rocket science... Ck786 (talk) 06:36, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- any commercial exploitation is expressly prohibited.. Wikipedia content must be allowed to be reproduced by anyone, including commercial ventures, therefore the copyright limitations issued by abc itself precludes its being here. It's not rocket science. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:43, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Not according to the Wikipedia Terms of Use... http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use Ck786 (talk) 06:54, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- If you want to import text that you have found elsewhere or that you have co-authored with others, you can only do so if it is available under terms that are compatible with the CC-BY-SA license. prohibition against commercial use is not compatible with CC_BY_SA. But, you know what, I'm through with this discussion. Be dicks amongst yourselves. This discussion runs 7 days. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- "Be dicks amongst yourselves. This discussion runs 7 days. Who then was a gentleman?" That would be another personal attack... wouldnt it??? Man up and stop being a hypocrite and stirring sh*t... Ck786 (talk) 08:32, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep. I can't believe this is even being nominiated. The lists are published everywhere and anywhere. -- Chuq (talk) 06:39, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Comment: Mr Gentleman, your initial reply of "Keep is not a valid option under Wikipedia copyright policy unless all of these redirect to Triple J Hottest 100. Should an admin decide that they want to keep this, I will immediately list it at WP:DRV" is a huge bad faith assumption on everyone else. We have opinions, we all can read the policy. We all can vote. You should not decide on our behalf - nor threaten DRV involvement during the debate. As for where this debate should be happening... well Wikipedia:Copyright problems would an obvious starting point. A question to ask yourself is "Would you want the article deleted if it was exactly as it is today, but without the full list of songs in a table?" If the answer is no, then AFD shouldn't have anything to do with the article. (and if you claim AFD for no WP:RSs, then in a day's time when the #1 song is announced, I bet there will be plenty of RS to back up the notability of the article.)The-Pope (talk) 06:52, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep The list is compiled by people listening to the radio in real time and is not a reproduction of materials from the ABC website. The copyright notices linked to by Gentleman are for the website and cover website materials. The compilation of the results by Wikipedians is not a violation of the terms of copyright, nor is use of Wikipedia's compilation for commercial purposes. For results on the latest poll, results have been posted in real time on Facebook and Twitter, indicating that they are not covered by the ABC Online's copyright notice.DrDoogle (talk) 07:59, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep per other lists of award winners. I'm thinking in particular of the Oscars, but there are many others. Orpheus (talk) 08:55, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep. The Triple J website is not the sole source of these results - they are being released in real time via the @triplej Twitter feed, collated by individual listeners and will also be publicly disseminated at the conclusion of the countdown. Relying solely on the ABC website copyright as a reason for deletion is highly disingenuous. Furthermore is it questionable how the use of a list of facts by a commercial entity can be considered "exploitation". Rjbsmith (talk) 02:31, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep Without doubt should be kept and furthermore Mr Gentlemen should be blocked/deleted as he quite clearly doesn't have the intelligence to necessitate a wikipedia account. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marlin14 (talk • contribs) 03:19, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- Strong Keep —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tommyc (talk • contribs) 06:43, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- Strong Keep This list was compiled from public votes by a Government-funded public broadcaster, and disseminated freely via many media. There is no copywritable editorial contribution to the list unless the voting was rigged. It's impossible to imagine any kind of legal problem unless the material was misattributed or substantially misrepresented. TheDewi (talk) 07:11, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. The overall consensus in this monster of a discussion is clearly in favour of deletion. Despite massive press coverage of Michael Jackson's death as a whole, his children have not obtained sufficient separate notability as an entity to warrant an article; particularly considering the egregious WP:BLP problems that have been brought up in this discussion. ~ mazca talk 17:51, 16 July 2009 (UTC) - Children of Michael Jackson (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View AfD)
<first nomination> Children who are only know because of their parents do not require a wiki page. There is already page descibing the Jackson family listing these children. 2 lines at a funeral does not make someone a child star MrMarmite (talk) 13:22, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
<from the second AfD, deleted as cleanup> This will doubtless be contentious, but I offer the following argument. The children are in of themselves not notable - they cannot derive notability from their father, because notability is not inherited. Their appearance on stage during the recent memorial is a single event, not in itself according notability to the children, and so is best left as information within the article about the event not about the children. I am sympathetic to the article creator's contention (see Talk:Children of Michael Jackson) that it is becoming increasingly difficult to extract information from the Michael Jackson article, but comments on the talk page of Michael Jackson indicate that this is best solved by spinning out the significant portions of text relating to his music, rather than spinning out information on his children, of which very little exists in this article that is not already included. Finally, I note that beyond what is already included at Michael Jackson, this article simply offers an "expectation" of future notability from supposed estate and custody battles, which means that notability does not yet exist for this spinout. Deletion here would not mean that the article could never be created, but I see no establishment of independent notability for the children beyond the single event of their appearance at their father's memorial at this time. Fritzpoll (talk) 13:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC) - delete as above and my AFD entered at same time MrMarmite (talk) 13:26, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete. The children are not notable and notability is not inherited. Unfortunately, some might confuse the plethora of media mentions about them during the recent death of their father as notability. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:22, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Redirect to Jackson himself: if I remember right, it's standard to redirect the spouse of a notable person to that person's article, and it seems reasonable to do the same with a notable person's children. They're definitely likely search targets. Nyttend (talk) 14:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
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- I think that's definitely right with their names (and the names are currently redirected), but I wasn't convinced of this for this article title, which is why I went for deletion. Not challenging your opinion here, just explaining to future commentators that I considered this per WP:BEFORE Fritzpoll (talk) 14:52, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
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- My only thing with that is that the Family of Barack Obama page is essentially to the same depth of the family tree as the Jackson family article should be, so I'm unconvinced of the need for two separate articles relating to his family. Fritzpoll (talk) 15:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
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- While that is an option, the thing I worry about is that the Jackson family article it's one line a person. Very little information/weight could be put on Michael Jackson's immediate family when all of the Jackson brothers and sisters have their own unnotable children (and it would violate WP:UNDUE) - Epson291 (talk) 16:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
*Keep as 'Family of Michael Jackson' article (as suggested by Epson291 above). I've supported the deletion of articles on children of celebrities before, but I'm going to make an exception here - in this case, I think Michael Jackson's children are notable enough, simply for being the children of Michael Jackson, to justify this level of coverage. Yes, normally notability is not inherited, but we are talking about almost the biggest celebrity in the world here. I do think it would be preferable, though, to merge in the content about Debbie Rowe into a single 'Family of Michael Jackson' article. Robofish (talk) 15:34, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
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- I'm not sure that the level of celebrity has any bearing on WP:NOTINHERITED, and I'm not convinced of the need for an exception, but I'll leave that to the closing admin. Why can the material not exist where it already is, in either the Jackson family or Michael Jackson articles? As I say in the nomination, the need to spin material out of an article is paramount when there's a lot of it. Here, there isn't - the MJ article is too big, but the bloat is from discussion of his music, not from his family. Fritzpoll (talk) 15:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
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- I've changed my mind about this, see my comment below. Robofish (talk) 14:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep and merge per above. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 16:09, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep I'm not sure how this applies under Wiki guidelines, but I came on looking for info about the children, not their father. Whether their notability comes from their father or not, they are a notable news subject. Under the effort to provide information in the most efficient manner, I think the article should be kept. It was much easier for me to be able to go straight to an article about the children, not wade through stuff about the rest of their family. PrincessofLlyr (talk) 16:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- We are not wikinews, we are an encyclopedia - we have inclusion guidelines for a reason. Navigational redirects already exist for the names of the children, and can be altered to point directly to the relevant sections for navigational ease. That doesn't give a reason for this standalone article to exist when the children have no individual notability Fritzpoll (talk) 16:22, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep - The idea that they are not notable (as we define notability) is silly. The media has been writing about them since they were born. You could easily fill this page with 1,000 refs. WP:NOTINHERITED does not apply. They have numerous articles specifically about them. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 16:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
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- About them only, or more trivially in relation to commentary about their father? Fritzpoll (talk) 16:20, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
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- Delete / Merge There is already an article called Jackson family, this would seem the ideal place for this information ACarPark (talk) 16:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete or merge to Jackson family (slimming down the material). Nothing in there documents notability of the children on their own merits; everything we have to say about them is essentially about their father. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Strong Keep. There is a fundamental misunderstanding here: the page "Children of Michael Jackson" is a sub-article of Michael Jackson, intended to describe his relationship with the children. It is a sub-article, in the sense of "Songs written by Michael Jackson" or "Music composed by Michael Jackson" or "Dances choreographed by Michael Jackson". The intent is to separately detail another aspect of Michael Jackson's impact (based on his notability), rather than create a sub-section, such as under "Choreography" trying to provide a section about Jackson dance-moves (even though it would still be notable in that article). The specific choice to group the children (rather than the broader "Nuclear family") is because they have been named, as a legal entity, in Jackson's will (to receive 40% of the estate, protected against creditors). That legal entity is not some future expectation; no, instead, it has already been documented. There could be another article, "Beneficiaries named in Michael Jackson's 2002 will" but that would also flow from his notability, rather than something like "List of children who lived at Neverland Ranch" where notability would be tied to the property, itself, rather than Jackson (and people could camp at Neverland after Jackson had left), and would require childhood residency to be a significant aspect of the Ranch. I hope that helps to clarify that the notability of the article is due to the phrase "Michael Jackson" in the title, without the need to use a title such as "Procreation work done by Michael Jackson". Anyway, I do sympathize with the confusion, as trying to consider the children as separately notable, but the article is a sub-article of Michael Jackson, based on his notability, not theirs as independent "3 child-stars named Jackson", such as the notability of "Liza Minnelli" independent of Judy Garland and Vincente Minnelli. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- So you're saying this article about his children is on a notable topic because notability is inherited from their father's article? That's not really how it works. Further, what is the need for this sub-article at this stage - there isn't a huge amount of material, and being named within a will hardly affords them individual notability. Sub-articles are fine when there is too much information to cover within the main article, but that is patently not the case here. If you were going to create a sub-article to reduce the size of the MJ page, you should look to making Music of Michael Jackson to reduce the size, but the children do not need their own sub-article as it is too specific a topic with too little information. Fritzpoll (talk) 16:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
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- There is much information about the children that didn't fit in the main article, due to space used about his music. Recent Google searches report: for "children of Michael Jackson" 30,300 hits, or for German "Kinder von Michael Jackson" 16,700 hits, and that does not include searches by the children's names or other languages such as French, Japanese and Italian. With children older than Wikipedia, there are more than 12 years of news reports about the children, their disguises, education, and public appearances. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
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- I still can't see why this information can't be housed at the Jackson family page, it seems the ideal place for it, and redirects could take you to the location within that article. Also..what's a "Strong" keep? Do they count a double? :) MrMarmite (talk) 18:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Jackson family would become unbalanced per WP:UNDUE. Right now it's basically a list, and if you merge this article it will be half about the three kids, and then single sentences for everyone else. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 18:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep as everyone for choosing to keep the article. Only Paris seen and heard about her dad's memorial service. ApprenticeFan talk contribs 16:56, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Your comment seems to indicate a reason for delete, I guess I am missing your point MrMarmite (talk)
- Keep - Per Wikid77. Gage (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete and merge relevant facts in an article on Michael Jackson. 95.96.73.138 (talk) 17:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete and merge relevant facts in an article on Jackson Family 86.138.66.214 (talk) 18:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep as a reasonable breakout-for-length of the main article; the children are also getting considerable media attention this week, but the main reason for keeping it is stylistic. JJL (talk) 18:27, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Strong delete – Absolutely guaranteed to become a BLP nightmare if it isn't already. Can't wait to see the "criticism" section on an article about young children, not! — Please comment R2 18:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete. Children of a notable celebrity do not inherit notability. The children themselves are summarized in Michael Jackson; custody battles and all relevant information after Jackson's death can be mentioned in death of Michael Jackson. — Σxplicit 18:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete. I don't see the need for information on the Jackson children over and above what can be reasonably included in the articles Michael Jackson, death of Michael Jackson, and Jackson family. Articles can be created in the future in the case of notable events (such as a custody battle) or if any of the children become notable individuals. ReverendWayne (talk) 19:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Merge or delete PLease don't get carried away because of his death people. This is an encyclopedia. An article dedicated purely to the children of a pop star is absurd. This should be summarized briefly in the personal life section. See Angelina Jolie or Brad Pitt articles for how it should be done. Dr. Blofeld White cat 19:51, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Comment After that funeral that was telecast live on all the networks, I think that the kids should get the same treatment that Wikipedia gives to members of other royal families. Mandsford (talk) 20:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete or merge into MJ mainpage, a section under family. Also no need for a list of MJs family, or anyone else's for that matter.Fuzbaby (talk) 20:30, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Merge or delete The current massive interest in them is through no action of their own; all they have done is reacted the way normal people do to personal tragedies. If we are to make crying at your fathers memorial service or inherting great sums of money grounds for notability then we would need to create millions or articles for completely unkown people. These children are not notable in their own right but rather are of peripheral interest to another subject. If we take a moment and look at the guidlines for notable persons we will see it states "That person A has a relationship with well-known person B, such as being their spouse, is not a reason for a standalone article on A" [10] Making them subtopics in the relevant page of the Jackson family makes much more sense as this family most certainly is notable and these children are part of it. If we look at the children of other celebrities on wikipedia standard practice seems to be directing readers towards the notable subject of interest as in the case of Suri Cruise or Shiloh Pitt. Furthermore the current massive interest in the children is driven enitrely by recent events and the media interest in them is certainly going to die down; again, to quote the notability guidelines it "takes more than just a short burst of news reports about a single event or topic to constitute sufficient evidence of notability" [11]. Regardless of what popular opinion might be, I feel that stacked strictly against wikipedia's guidelines these children do not meet notability requirements, and thuse the article should be merged or deleted. Solid State Survivor (talk) 20:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- My opinion on the matter has been altered after being persuaded by arguements from other editors. I now support deleting this article without merging into the Jackson family - as per BLP arguements possited by SlimVirgin Realist2 and Lantrix. Solid State Survivor (talk) 02:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- Merge back to the main page, redirect from the kids' names, and delete this. As noted directly above, unless a famous person's family does something to make them in turn famous, then our standing consensus is to redirect to the parent's article. I don't see any reason that this shouldn't be included in the main article, and redirects placed. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Merge We don't need articles about every subset of Jackson's life.--Falcon8765 (talk) 20:56, 9 July 2009 (UTC)\
- Merge Edit. I think that it should be added to the Jackson family page. Portillo (talk) 00:52, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Comment about priorities: I had originally created the article "Children of Michael Jackson" as a significant sub-article to handle reader requests about his children: Wikipedia users began asking about his children over 120,000x times per day; on 9-July-2009 there were still over 40,000 page-views, with people requesting the children every 1 or 2 seconds (all day long). There was talk that Prince Jackson would have sung during the "This Is It" concert tour, plus reports about their schooling with the nanny. The 2002 will was filed in Los Angeles Probate court on 2-July-2009, and reports stated the children (as a group) would receive 40%, mother 40% & charities 20% of the estate. I didn't see the sense in updating the article about Michael Jackson to keep track of his children's lives, so I though to split as a sub-article based on significance within topic "Michael Jackson". However, people are demanding "wiki-notability" for the article. Meanwhile, nine of his albums became the top 9 in the U.S. (but that's his music, not him). Michael Jackson said that his children were the most important thing in his life; they were "everything" to him. I think that means they were notable to him. So, I wonder how to reconcile Wikipedia policies with these priorities. Perhaps this is a pivotal point in adjusting WP policies. -Wikid77 (talk) 04:55, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- I am still unsure where you are getting these numbers from. How on earth are MJ's post-mortem record sales relevant, and of course his children are notable to him, my children are "everything" to me, that does not mean they need a wiki page. MrMarmite (talk) 07:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
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- 11-July-2009: The stats are a complex aggregate of many titles that redirect as names for his children, based on the website stats.grok.se (in use since November 2007). Complicating the total counts are stats for Canadian football player Paris Jackson (same name as MJ's girl). -Wikid77 (talk) 07:15, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Strong Delete They are not notable in their own right in any way shape or form. If they deserve an article simply because they are the children of a dead pop star, then we can open the floodgates to an article on every single child any celebrity has ever given birth to. Lourdes Leon does not have her own article, why are the Jackson children any different? Paul75 (talk) 08:52, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
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- Lourdes isn't notable because Madonna keeps her from the public eye. Lourdes also doesn't stand to inherit properties worth hundreds of millions of dollars, because Madonna isn't dead. But the Jackson kids are in the public eye due to the death of their father, and due to their potential to become not just millionaires, but centi-millionaires. Their power to make news makes them notable. I disagree with the basic position that "notability is not inheritable." (I posted the same thing at the Debbie Rowe discussion board, by the way.) As someone posted above you, "Wikipedia users began asking about his children over 120,000x times per day; on 9-July-2009 there were still over 40,000 page-views, with people requesting the children every 1 or 2 seconds (all day long)." That makes them notable. Jgroub (talk) 14:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- a "potential" to become rich is surely not wiki-worthy. Also, please let us know where these page view stats come from. MrMarmite (talk) 14:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Mostly you're citing classic arguments to avoid - The existence of other articles of similar quality is not a good reason for retention, page-views, Google hits, and any metric other than notability through their own actions, not inherited via the fame of their father or a single event are very weak as arguments for retention. Fritzpoll (talk) 16:37, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
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- I would like to add that I think being wealthy is in and of itself not notable in the context of an encyclopedia. Extremely wealthy individuals are notable on wikipedia only when they do things that may or may not involve this wealth. For instance S. Robson Walton is notable not because he inherited a massive fortune, but rather because he is the chairman of the coproration that generated that fortune. Solid State Survivor (talk) 17:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
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- Err... Lourdes isn't notable because Madonna keeps her from the public eye. Lourdes also doesn't stand to inherit properties worth hundreds of millions of dollars, because Madonna isn't dead. is a ridiculous statement Jgroub. If Lourdes Leon is kept out of the public eye by Madonna, why is she seemingly splashed over every single glossy woman's magazine more and more as she gets older. And she doesn't stand to inherit properities worth millions of dollars???!!! So Madonna doesn't own all that property she lives in then, and isn't going to pass some of it onto Lourdes? Anyway, the Jackson kids may end up getting nothing. Many reports claim he was bankrupt and heavily in debt. And he was living in a rented house when he died. Even if it was a reason to get your own articles, I doubt those kids are going to get wealthy from their father's estate. Paul75 (talk) 07:55, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep or Merge I feel the content is worthwhile, but possibly should be merged into a "Family of Michael Jackson" article as mentioned above. Bafleyanne (talk) 12:59, 10 July 2009 (UTC)— Bafleyanne (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Comment: Just to illustrate the problem, how would an article about Paris begin? "Paris-Michael Jackson is" ... what? an actress? a television personality? a musician? No, the only way to describe her at this point is "Michael Jackson's daughter." WillOakland (talk) 16:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete or Merge The Children are already mentioned in other articles; there is no need for excessive repetition. Wolfpeaceful (talk) 16:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete without a redirect. They are minors. A comprehensive article would have to get into issues such as biological parentage, custody, and other matters it would be unfair to showcase on a page devoted to minors. As they pass through their teens, we'd be on hand to document the first time they got drunk, their first love affair, the first time they did something silly in public. It would be a BLP minefield. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 16:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, no no. It is much better to attract unfair comments/insults into one heavily-policed article, rather than let people scatter unfair words (about minors) in dozens of Michael Jackson articles. I have countered wiki-vandalism for years, and so I know how to, logistically, limit it's general proliferation: offer a clear target, with a good defence. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:31, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete The children are not notable and notability is not inherited. Wait until they have done something notable themselves. Esowteric | Talk 19:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete. Slim puts it best. – iridescent 21:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Comment for closing admin - It looks like this article is going down, but I'd like to point out that the votes based on not-notable are incorrect (if using our definition of the word). 12 independant reliable sources that discuss in the children in detail. As far as saying BLP as a reason to delete, that is also incorrect. BLP just says we should follow Neutral point of view (NPOV), Verifiability, and No original research. This article does that, so BLP doesn't come into play. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 22:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- These are WP:ONEEVENT indicators, as they all relate to the event of Jackson's death, and do not therefore accord notability on the children, but on the event of the memorial service, which already has an article. Fritzpoll (talk) 22:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- There have been articles about them ever since they were born. It certainly isn't ONEEVENT stuff. They always had that taken care off, they just weren't notable (maybe) in the past. Now they're notable, and they've been covered extensively their whole lives. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 01:27, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Comment about issues raised: There has been an implicit blurring of the notability focus, and much talk about "inheriting notability", so let me clarify:
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- notability focus - the main focus is all the children, as a group tied to Michael Jackson, with no separate articles as claiming individual notability by their own names, only as the group with Michael Jackson.
- notability scope - the scope is only with "Michael Jackson" and not as "3 youngsters named Jackson"; there is no attempt to define them as 3 separate articles, independent of their designation as, collectively, the children of Michael Jackson.
- no inheritance - there is no attempt to shift notability from Michael Jackson, separately, onto them, such as touting them as the upcoming "Kinglets of Pop" as if that royal term had been passed, by birthright, to some royal heirs.
- notable as note-worthy - fundamentally, the article addresses a note-worthy topic, about the children together in relation to Michael Jackson, as being worthy of note. If someone said, "The children of Michael Jackson are planning a public appearance in town today", then would that be note-worthy, or of no importance? Consider the reaction of the local officials, local police, and local citizens of the town, when expecting a public visit of MJ's children.
- wealth/privilege: It has been argued that perhaps any group of children, expecting to inherit great wealth, could be documented separately. However, the title of the article includes "of Michael Jackson" rather than just anyone raised in wealth. The significance cannot be separated from the notability of Michael Jackson, as if trying to convert the "1983 music released by Michael Jackson" into merely "some songs released in 1983"; instead, the article is demanding, by the title, to include "Michael Jackson".
- arguing independence: Some have asserted that the children will be viewed as famous on their own, even though they never received a major competitive award; however, the subject of the article is the collective group tied inseparably to Michael Jackson, not merely their separate accomplishments.
- legal term: If the U.S. Supreme Court were asked to consider a case regarding the "children of Michael Jackson", there would be little doubt as to what that term denotes. There might even be a reply, "You mean, of THE Michael Jackson". The obvious legal implication is another aspect of notability.
- Wikipedia precedents: Oh, it's never been done before. They're always part of their parent's article. But these children were orphans, they didn't go home to their mother; they had no legal parents. So, the court awarded temporary custody to their grandmother, Katherine Jackson. This is a rather unusual situation, where they cannot be considered an active part of their parents' life. They are orphans, being assigned to a guardian.
I hope those issues help to clarify the notability as tied directly to Michael Jackson, but also as a legal entity to the American judicial system, a security concern of police departments, and a case of children becoming orphans. Their impact to the court system, and to security concerns of the local police, is because they are the children of Michael Jackson, and hence, the article. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC) -
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- What have these odd definitions of notability got to do with Wikipedia's definition, which does not (unfortunately because it makes it unclear) to the everyday usage, in the context specifically of WP:NRVE, WP:ONEEVENT and WP:SBST? I'm afraid you don't get to make up the rules of notability as you go along, and I have covered why this is an unnecessary spinout above. Fritzpoll (talk) 23:21, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- The above section ("Comment about issues raised" ) does not give "definitions" of notability, but rather, explains the aspects & situations affecting notability. There has been no attempt to "make up rules of notability" but, rather, to emphasize that the article is about Michael Jackson (the man) with his children, and about his parenting, the masks, schooling, etc. It is not titled "MJ's children after he was gone". There is an illusion here that the article is expected to be 99% about the children, excluding any mention of Michael Jackson (not true). -Wikid77 (talk) 06:46, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
KEEP - These are notable children —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.99.72 (talk) 02:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC) Delete: This article is not future-proof, since it is logical this kids will grow up and have a mind each one on their own. My suggestion is to create three separate articles with the information regarding each one of those kids (even if redundant, that's ok). And have the article Children of Michael Jackson merged into the Michael Jackson article and the Jackson Family article. Thanks--Camilo Sanchez (talk) 02:52, 11 July 2009 (UTC) -
- Creating 3 separate articles has been tried before, and rejected, because they are not yet separately notable (apart from their father), since they have not each won a competitive award, plus they are minors, legally, requiring special coverage, as with child-stars. -Wikid77 (talk) 06:46, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Strongly Keep: The children of Michael Jackson are not explained enough in Jackson's main page.--Jerzeykydd (talk) 18:43, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Comment on notability: I cannot emphasize enough: the article is a Michael Jackson article; the page is about Michael Jackson, as a father with his children. It does not attempt to establish separate notability as "3 kids named Jackson"; no, instead, the article includes many events with Michael Jackson and his children together, during the 12 years (not as a WP:ONEEVENT). It's not like a typical wiki-biography where a father is mentioned 1 or 2 times, and then all the rest is life/work of the notable, independent person. No, instead, it is a Michael Jackson article, where he is mentioned many times in numerous events during the 12-year period. The notability is not because a 3-kid group was seen on stage worldwide, but, rather, it is an article about the notable relationship of Michael Jackson with his children, as reported by major reliable sources, during a 12-year period. OK, at this point, does anyone still imagine the article is about the 3 kids, separately, restricted to only 1 line about their father? There is no, repeat, no issue of inheriting notability, (why?) because it is an article about Michael Jackson as a parent. -Wikid77 (talk) 06:46, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete: "Michael Jackson as a parent" is not a notable encyclopedic article by any standard. Any relevance to the relationship with his children can easily be covered by the his main biography or by the Jackson family article. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 08:42, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Comment To me this whole issue looks like people's desire to keep the world of MJ alive through his children, somewhat ironic given his predilections. He's dead, and no amount of repeated and over detailed information about pre-pubescent children is going to change that . I no more expect to see articles on these young children than I would expect to see articles on the children of other dead celebrities who have no claims to fame of their own. Frankly, I find the whole thing rather creepy. MrMarmite (talk) 09:12, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Comment on uber-notability: I realize it can seem confusing: the actual uber-notability. I didn't know that much about Jackson, about his numerous albums (etc.), so I was shocked to learn about: the recent 9 Michael Jackson albums in the U.S. top 9 album sales; Amazon.com sold-out of all albums (!!); CD manufacturers couldn't cut CDs fast enough to meet orders (!!!); downloads at iTunes set new sales records; and a memorial viewed by 1 billion people? But that's the reality: MJ is shattering 100 records in every area. When I went to find old articles about MJ+children, what did I find? ...major articles about his parenting (with his kids), written yesterday (!), not just years ago. Wikipedia is not the only one frantically writing about "Children of Michael Jackson" - everyone thinks it's notable. And, he is more alive now, than when living: breaking all these worldwide top-album ranks of the past 100 years; and minimum projected income=US$80 million per year (before the "This Is It" concert tapes are released). Like Elvis before him, MJ will obviously become much bigger in death: and his children will become much richer than he ever was. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:56, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Redirect to either Michael Jackson or Death of Michael Jackson, as per WP:RCAT--in particular, the part about "sub-topics or closely related topics that should be explained within the text", and perhaps the bit on "people known solely in the context of one event" has something to offer (although "known solely" would be a bit restrictive in this case). The children are a plausible search term, so outright deletion/redlinking could be somewhat counterproductive (not to mention counterintuitive). Cosmic Latte (talk) 14:56, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- uninvolved reader cautions against delete, so merge or keep I came here just because I searched the kids' names. I was not interested in MJ and didn't look at his article. Therefore, in the interest of reader ease, a merge or keep is more appropriate than delete. User F203 (talk) 20:17, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete. It's enough to list them in Michael's own page, they do not need their own. As human beings, they do not qualify as notable, simply being Jacko's kids is not enough. magnius (talk) 20:48, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Comment: To elaborate a little on my earlier post--WP:NOTINHERITED might preclude an unqualified "keep" on this one, but it wouldn't necessarily indicate deletion. Please bear in mind the non-keep alternatives to deletion, including a simple redirect to Michael Jackson. The fact that lots of folks are viewing the children's article might not excuse the article's existence, but it could very well warrant a practical response. Cosmic Latte (talk) 21:14, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete and redirect, as per Fritzpoll in the second nomination. — OwenBlacker (Talk) 02:23, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- Strong delete: Leave these children alone. They are not notable. 1) they are not notable 2) single issue people don't get any page. If any of these children accomplish something notable other than being children of MJ, then we create the page again. Right now. this is completely useless. 97.124.244.104 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:41, 12 July 2009 (UTC).
- Strong keep: They are some of the most famous children in the world. They are bound to remain in the media spotlight for years to come. The main MJ article is already too long. Brmull (talk) 05:46, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- Comment Surely the Jackson family would be the best place for them then. A page should not exist because people might be talking about them in the coming years. Never understood why people put strong before delete or keep MrMarmite (talk)
- Comment Its in case they feel strongly for or against. Portillo (talk) 12:04, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- Comment A page should not cease to exist because people might not be talking about them in the future. The kids are for now a discrete entity in the public consciousness. At some point it might make sense to merge them or split them up, but for now most readers who are interested in one child are also interested in the others, and are NOT interested in Joe Jackson's kids. The 12 July recap counters the Delete arguments well, in my view.Brmull (talk) 18:41, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete or redirect, based upon the numerous points above about notability and obvious BLP issues which will make this article a complete battleground/wasteland. Q T C 06:12, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- Split into separate articles for each person. They are obviously not Michael Jackson's children and so the current title is not appropriate. Colonel Warden (talk) 08:17, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete and salt the page until and unless they do something to make themselves notable. These three children are notable only for their father, and have done nothing on their own to be notable. The only one whose voice has even been heard is the daughter. Additionally, as many others have pointed out, notability is not inherited. Lastly, as SlimVirgin pointed out, these are minor children, and the BLP issues alone are quite problematic. Walls of text posted in its defense aside, this article should not exist until and unless these children do something notable in their own right, such as have a singing or acting career. Unitanode 01:46, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
_________________________________________ [edit] Recap up to 12-July-09 The same off-topic arguments have been repeated (for days), so let me summarize in this sub-section; there are 2 core arguments that have been shown to be false: - Core argument 1 - "Delete because non-notable:" Since the article is about Michael Jackson, notability has been established, so the claim is false.
- Core argument 2 - "Delete because too little information:" Michael Jackson raised his children during a 12-year period (1997-2009), and there are numerous reliable sources about those activities (masking, home-schooling, shopping, excursions, birthdays, travel), so the claim of "too little" is false.
Beyond those issues, there have been other tangent issues: - Claim of WP:ONEEVENT: This is spurious, as focusing on the memorial, because the article describes Michael Jackson's relationship with his children since birth (for 12 years), not just in one event.
- Claim of any rich-children articles: Someone concluded, well then all rich children could be in articles. This is an invalid conclusion, because it assumes notability if Michael Jackson is excluded, as in "all rich children" not just Jackson's. However, there could be another article "Michael Jackson's work with other children", then (given his notability) describe HIV work with Ryan White, roles Jackson gave to child actors, children's charities, excursions to children in Africa, children's parties at Neverland Ranch, etc. The requirement is the notability of Jackson, not just any children without him.
- Claim of non-notable parenting: Wikipedia editors don't get to choose which parts of a notable person's life to exclude ("Well, I feel Einstein had a boring childhood so exclude it, and his marriages ended in divorce, so exclude them"). Sorry, that's not the way it works. Once a person is shown to be notable, a typical article starts by identifying their birthdate, parents, childhood, schooling, etc. Wikipedia editors don't get to decide a notable person's birthdate is boring, nor declare that time spent with their children was wasted time. Plus, when there are numerous reliable reports about a notable person's activities with their children, those actions cannot be deemed insignificant or "too limited" to report.
- Too many articles about Jackson: Wikipedia editors don't get to randomly exclude information from reliable sources. If there are 250,000 sources about Michael Jackson, then editors can't declare the coverage should be 6 articles only. The number of articles depends on the 32kb limit due to WP:Accessibility: when too much information, then split into another article, even if 27 of them.
- Confusing notability with significance: For an article, the notability aspect is just the first step. If someone wrote a one-line article about Michael Jackson's music: "Jackson sang the songs on the album Thriller (end of article)", that would not be a problem due to notability. Michael Jackson is notable, so even 1 line about him still counts. However, the problem with a 1-line article is the "scope of significance" - meaning the total amount of information presented. An article about Jackson's music would even be questionable if it described all recordings from just 1985 (what about the other years?). Focusing on 1985 is not a problem based on notability, but rather, because of the limited scope. There are unusual cases where a single year would be acceptable, such as Einstein's "Annus Mirabilis" as being year 1905, due to his 5 seminal papers and the details needed to describe each, plus the events of their publication. However, that article would be "Einstein in 1905" (not "Einstein's total writings"). So, with Michael Jackson being notable, the issue shifts to "scope of significance" which, in the case of his children, spans a period of 12 years, with numerous published accounts of his activities as a father. If Jackson had only been a father for 3 months, then perhaps, that topic could be considered as "too little" for a separate article, but covering a 12-year period is certainly an acceptable "scope of significance" for such an article.
- Merge to article Michael Jackson: That was already rejected because: main article too big.
- Merge to article Jackson family: That option was already rejected because: WP:UNDUE with 20x more detail than 15 other family members. There might be a new article "Michael Jackson children with their relatives" to describe events with Janet Jackson and their uncles, plus visits to grandma.
- Split as three: When an article is created for each separate person, then notability must be re-established, because those are titled under their own names, hence as "making a name for themselves". Technically, a title could be attempted as "Eldest son of MJ" or "Daughter of MJ" but that would be viewed as skirting individual notability, plus a complaint would be as duplication of childhood years, demanding to re-combine as "Children of MJ".
I realize that many people might not have considered those detailed reasons, described above, so that's why I clarified. As volunteers, it can take years for a person to see the many aspects of how articles are chosen, and why individual-person articles must "make a name for themselves". That ends this sub-section, of the recap up to 12-July-2009. -Wikid77 (talk) 10:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC) -
- I'll deal with these briefly. The article is not about Michael Jackson, which is probably our main sticking point of disagreement - it is about his children. The guideline on notability at WP:NRVE specifies that Jackson's children do not inherit notability from the parent article. WP:ONEEVENT has been raised only to counter the notion that the children are notable solely through their appearance at his memorial - if they have no other claim to notability, then this argument is a valid one. I agree that the "other stuff could exist" arguments are flawed - we should be thinking about this article, and not trying to make hypothetical comparisons to other ones. I've not noticed the argument about there being too many articles on Jackson (this page is getting pretty full!) but I too think that we can have as many articles on notable topics about Jackson as are feasible - my sole disagreement is that this is one of them! :) In your comments about notability vs. significance, I think there is a small flaw in that notability is based on significance. In the case of articles on Jackson's music, the music itself is widely publicised, discussed, and examined critically - they actually have standalone notability of their own, and your commentary is a good argument for an efficient use of articles (why only talk about one year of his music, when all could be discussed, etc.) and is one I agree with.
- I will not budge from my notion that this article should not exist as a standalone: I think there is insufficient notability, that it is a worrying BLP nightmare in the making, and that there is a fundamental privacy that should be afforded to children who have done nothing more than be born to famous parents and that the lightning conductor of this article poses a risk to that. My acceptable compromise is a merge. I think we can merge back into Michael Jackson because most of the material in this article is already there. The MJ article does have to be reduced in size, but in terms of the content a split of the material on the children is not warranted because the material about them is not so large that it cannot fit into the main Jackson biography - such a split is warranted for other topics, such as his music, but that debate is not for here. With no reason for a split, the article has to satisfy the concerns of notability of living persons and the associated policies in order to stand alone. I contend that it does not for the reasons I have plastered all over this page, and will try to avoid doing again since I am sure the closing admin is well aware of them! :) I am sure we will continue to disagree on a number of these points, but I hope you can consider moving towards the middle ground that I have tried to establish. Fritzpoll (talk) 12:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Further discussion Discussion of the AfD continues below (if new to this debate, please read the above section, #Recap up to 12-July-09). -Wikid77 (talk) 10:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC) - Comment Wikid, Thank you for further clarifying you points, as these are good arguments that should be addressed. You are approaching the topic in a way that seems much more in-line with wikipedia's guidelines; you see it as a sub-article. I think that a discussion needs to be had on the nature of sub-articles. I am of the mindset that a sub-article, though it is inherently tied to its parent subject, must still maintain its own notability that is of some degree distinct. For instance the article on "Thriller", though a sub-article that is inherently tied to Jackson, achieves its own notability in selling a massive number of copies, producing many number 1 singles, and leaving a distinct impression on popular culture. It seems to me that all of the other Michael Jackson sub-articles sustain their own somewhat distinct notability; even Bubbles the chimpanzee was made into a plush toy and appeared in a video-game. I think the consensus is that, even as a sub-article, if something doesn't posses notability it doesn't meet the criteria of an encyclopedia. Many of the other points you raise seem to argue that the children are indeed notable; being orphaned, set to inherit wealth, and being a distinct legal entity. But I feel that none of these things in-and-of-themselves confer notability; I would hardly expect an encyclopedia article on every legal entity, orphan, or millionaire in the world. I don't think we can take all these distinct factors that do not individually confer notability and say that in aggregate they means something contrary. In regard to your comments that editors do not decide what is important about a subject I agree with you; individual editors cannot make distinctions of what is notable about a particular subject, however consensus can and will. If this were not true sub-articles could be formed about "Michael Jackson's relationship with Brooke Shields" or "Michael Jackson's endorsement of Pepsi-Cola". Regardless of how we as individuals may feel about it, consensus seems to be that Michael Jackson is notable to the public as a, musician, dancer, and eccentric among other things - but not as a parent. Sub-articles should give more detail and further explain subjects that are of extreme notability to their parent subject, and consensus is forming that Michael Jackson's role as a father, or his childrens personal lives following his death, do not warrant an encyclopedia article or sub-article. Solid State Survivor (talk) 00:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
-
- Oh no, there's no semi-consensus forming on this page to reject the article/subarticle due to "parenting": in fact, 15 people already said "keep" and only 2(?) specifically said MJ "as a parent" is "not notable". As I tried to explain above, there is a difference between notable and significant. Michael Jackson is a notable person, and I would agree that people have mixed feelings about his parenting skills. However, the problem of calling his parenting as "non-notable for a sub-article" is the strong implication that the topic is unimportant. Hence, the "catch-22" dilemma: if not important enough for a sub-article, why include it in the main article? ...and if important enough to be stated in the main article, how does his parenting lose importance when moved to a 2nd page? So basically, why would people put "non-notable" facts on any page of Wikipedia?? Do you finally understand the wiki-mind-fry about notions of wiki-notability? Sub-articles have the notability of their main article, but they must have significance as judged by the amount of reliable-source coverage. For MJ parenting issues, there are thousands of reports showing vast coverage of the topic. Contrast with MJ's unreleased "great" new songs from the "This Is It" concert/tour; they might become hit-songs for Jackson, and people might be amazed at their importance for CD sales, but there are very few reports about those songs; hence, the songs are not significant as a sub-article of Jackson (due to lack of sources), but check again if they become hit-recordings when released(!). -Wikid77 (talk) 01:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
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- "Sub-articles have the notability of their main article, but they must have significance as judged by the amount of reliable-source coverage. - not according to Wikipedia's defintion of notability. I'm seeing the theme emerging in your lengthy texts that you are using notability in it's real-world usage. That is not the meaning of the phrase here. If you want to subarticle to reduce the size of the main article, then make Music of Michael Jackson, which cannot be doubted to have standalone notability - but if you want to try and set guidelines on when subarticles can be used, AfD debates are not the place to do it. Like it or not, and no matter how you argue it, our existing policies and guidelines do not support your position on sub-articling - feel free to propose these at the Village Pump, get them accepted by the community at large and then we can return and have this debate again. But at this second, nothing about sub-articles here is currently supported by the community as a whole. Fritzpoll (talk) 08:22, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Comment on sub-articles: The issue of determining "article notability" seems to be very confusing to many people. Prior Wikipedia editors have tried to define/adjust the policies to keep Wikipedia focused on major, "note-worthy" topics. It has been a major concern in keeping pages full of important facts; however, the 32KB browser limit (such as in IE 6.0 on MS Windows 98) tends to limit articles as being split into those "sub-articles". For example, consider a split into 2 smaller sub-articles:
"Jackson music before Thriller" & "Jackson music after Thriller"
Both sub-articles would have the notability of Michael Jackson, equally, rather than debating which one is "more" notable. However, suppose the 2nd sub-article contained 1 line:
"Jackson released the "Billie Jean" single 1 month after 'Thriller'."
That one-line article would still be notable (as a Jackson sub-article), but the significance would need to be addressed by expanding with a broad range of facts, not just 1 line. Some people would want to protest that the 1-line article was "non-notable", but actually, the issue of notability is about the topic, rather than the article-size. Hence, many notable people have 3-line stub articles, but those need to be expanded for their scope of significance. Well, that explains the 2 factors: notability & significance. So, next question: when does notability differ? Answer: Each person has different notability levels, but that is often termed as "Importance: high/low". Also, notability changes when you omit the name "Michael Jackson" as with song "I'll Be There" - that article must stand on its own, as "making a name for itself". Contrast that with "Michael Jackson's version of Ben" - the 1972 song "Ben" might have been non-notable (rather than the top-hit, Oscar nominee), but if significant sources described the MJ version of the original song "Ben", then that sub-article would be acceptable, even though focused on a more narrow topic. The factor of significance allows any article to be split into logical parts: Michael Jackson can have "37" sub-articles (but not one-liners). In contrast, the factor of notability allows any notable topic to begin with a 1-line article. I understand it might take some people months to fully digest those concepts. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:02, 13 July 2009 (UTC) - I think it is taking you some time to understand the fact that notability is strictly defined in WP:N and not by the real-world definition of the same term. You want your concept to be policy/guideline accepted by the community - fine, go and do it. But you can't do it at AfD. It is not through lack of "digestion" or thought that many of us reject these concepts - it is the fact that you are arguing against the community norms established in our policies and guidelines that causes rejection. Might I suggest Wikipedia talk:Notability as an outlet for these views? Fritzpoll (talk) 08:22, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- I realize I have written a lot of details (above). However, what I have written is very much in line with policy WP:N, with the emphasis that notability is about the topic, not limiting the contents of the particular article. Quote from WP:Notability:
-
- "These notability guidelines only outline how suitable a topic is for its own article. They do not directly limit the content of articles." -from WP:N
- In my writings above, I have merely explained how a notable topic is often covered by a 3-line article. Meanwhile, the tone of writing by User:Fritzpoll is becoming rather caustic (hint: may I say "it is taking you some time to understand" WP:NPA and WP:Assume good faith?). I am not trying to circumvent or argue against community norms, but rather explain the circumstances when a notable-topic article is split into parts: those parts do not suddenly lose notability for the topic. If User:Fritzpoll believes such a viewpoint contradicts WP:N, then I am sorry for any anger generated, but please feel free to amend that policy so that it is clear that notability refers to the topic but not the splitting of sub-articles (does not limit content). I am not re-inventing the rules: "The Da Vinci Code" had 12 sub-articles in 2006 about that single fictional book/film, not even covering 50 years of a person's life. People can't declare: "Michael Jackson only gets 5 subarticles because his life is not notable enough" (incorrect). Use as many sub-articles as needed for future expansion, due to the 32kb limit. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- "(hint: may I say "it is taking you some time to understand" WP:NPA and WP:Assume good faith?)" - compare for your comment "I understand it might take some people months to fully digest those concepts.", which is what I was emulating. It was not intended as a personal attack, although if it has highlighted to you how patronising such phrases can appear to someone reading them, all the better. :) I am not angry, I'm simply saying that although other articles do have sub-articles (beware the other stuff exists argument), you've not justified why you've chosen this topic to split off when there is so little said about it in Jackson's biography. Consequently, I argue that the spinoff is an unnecessary content fork when a better alternative to get below the 32Kb limit would be Music of Michael Jackson considering the vast amount of unnecessary detail included in a biography on this subject. Indeed, such a split is being discussed on the talkpage now. But there are two possible reasons to keep this article: either is is a valid fork, which I don't feel has been justified, or it is individually notable, which most people here (including I think you) seem to agree it is not. I'm just pointing out that the fork is not justified and that there are better ways for you to make the information more accessible than by placing non-notable living persons in the perpetual glare of a Wikipedia article. I can't change the policies you refer to incidentally - they have to be changed through consensus. Fritzpoll (talk) 14:11, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- One final point about WP:N not limiting article content, but only the article topic. The topic of this article in the sense WP:N refers to is in this case the "Children of Michael Jackson". To demonstrate that the topic is notable, you have to show that they are notable, because they are the topic. Fritzpoll (talk) 14:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- For seeing the topic as derived from the title, I understand your viewpoint (shared by others) that the title seems to indicate "children only" and so I suggest (below): #Proposal to rename/move. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Merge with Jackson family. His children's independent notability is indisputable. But due to how intensely private Michael was, I feel that there is not enough verifiable 3rd hand info to support an entire article. I imagine that in 5 years (Prince will be 17) they'll probably begin to have individual articles.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 14:55, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
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- --Perhaps... but this is not the future, this is now... the children themselves are not particluarly notable, of their own accord, at the present time. Wolfpeaceful But I did enjoy reading the article... howeer, the main subject of this article is Michael Jackson, and not really the children, themselves... (talk) 20:00, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete. There just simply isn't enough notability here to warrant an article. Very much a case of recent news-itis. --User:Woohookitty Diamming fool! 07:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Merge I commented before (above) but did not vote. After considering what I and others wrote, I believe it should be merged to Jackson family, I don't see any independent notability for these children. - Epson291 (talk) 08:04, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
_________________________________________ [edit] Proposal to rename/move 14-July-09: The current title ("Children of Michael Jackson" ) has been interpreted (by many above) to mean "children omitting father", and I can see future problems with that title. Some have proposed other titles for the article, so I list alternate title names: - AN1: "Family of Michael Jackson" - discussed above; possible confusion with extended "Jackson family"
- AN2: "Michael Jackson in parenthood" - perhaps?
- AN3: "Michael Jackson in fatherhood" - perhaps?
- AN4: "Michael Jackson as father" - perhaps?
In fact, the content of the article includes "facts about Michael Jackson raising those 3 children during 12 years plus their birth-parents". The above codes AN1-AN4 allow short referencing in discussion, so AN1 is the "Family-of" title. Technically, the article, regardless of title, could be given a stated "Wiki-topic of article" on the talk-page, but most people assume the topic from the title words (e.g., they imagine "Brown mouse" is about a mouse not a bird). That's why a title can lead to a debate (such as arguing to rename as "Brown mouse bird" or merge with "List of brown birds"!). Wikipedia does not yet have spec-pages that identify an article's goal, requirements, or the formal wiki-topic to be judged by WP:N, so the talk-page holds both the long-term background specs (defined if needed) as well as temporary topics (mixed together). Please remember that Wikipedia is a neophyte project, not having formal article-specs for "article sets" or "IRDs" to define interface-requirements between dependent articles; those are engineering practices that have yet to be adopted here. For those reasons, most people "demand" an obvious title that reflects the topic; and endless debates arise because (on 14July09) there is no official way to designate the "notable wiki-topic" that an article covers. I say the topic is "Michael Jackson", others think "children only". Again, Wikipedia was not fully engineered by information scientists, but rather just started collecting articles and inventing policies (without any stated knowledge engineering). Hence, choosing a title can be crucial, and perhaps also embed comments that say "Article's wiki-topic = Michael Jackson" plus put talkpage note describing "==Wiki-topic of article==". Furthermore, people might argue the title "Children of Michael Jackson" includes his entourage of youngsters like Macauley Culkin (when age 12). So, let's discuss renaming. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC) --The title was not why I personally voted for delete... but rather than content of the article itself... (i.e the children are not actors, nor painters, nor comdedians, nor politicians... they are merely related to a notable person. The title, (if the article is "kept") is okay, in my opinion. Wolfpeaceful (talk) 18:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC) --The children are celebrities, for whatever reasons. Therefore, deserve their own article.--Jerzeykydd (talk) 20:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC) Celebrity status has little to do with "notability"... There are no independent verifiable sources referencing the children themselves... all verifiable sources point to either Michael Jackson or Debbie Rowe... or the Jackson Family... notability is not inherited...notability of a parent entity does not always imply the notability of the subordinate entities... Family members of celebrities also must meet Wikipedia's notability criteria on their own merits. The fact that these children have famous relatives is not, in and of itself, sufficient enough to justify an independent article, unless those same children had notability independent from their famous relatives. Wolfpeaceful (talk) 16:41, 15 July 2009 (UTC) _________________________________________ [edit] Proposal to set protection 15-July-09: There are even more issues, raised above, to consider: - Becomes issue of WP:BLP: The children are living, so there is the issue of "Biographies of living persons" (BLP). However, the children were already "concealed" within several other Jackson articles, which seems even worse, to mask text about those living children in the article of a deceased person, giving the illusion of no longer a WP:BLP. My feeling, expressed above, is better to separate them in one obvious article, rather than keep updating events about the children's lives in several other Jackson articles.
- Article protection for WP:BLP: I think this is a strong point to recommend the article for immediate protection because it does contain much detail about those 3 living children, becomes a stronger target for libel, and they are realworld-notable (every day on American TV & on tabloid covers at newstands) so as to attract even more vandalism.
So, please discuss protection, along with other issues. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC) -
- Unfortunately, our protection policy does not allow for such preemption. Michael Jackson is an exceptionally heavily watched article, and so the information on the children is much better protected than here, in what will undoubtedly be a less-watched article. Fritzpoll (talk) 08:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Has 2 notable topics 15-July-09: Numerous issues raised over the past few days have shown that the article "Children of Michael Jackson" has been revealed as covering (at least) 2 notable topics: -
- Notable topic 1: Michael Jackson (notable person).
- Notable topic 2: Paris Michael Jackson (covered relative of notable)
Although I have never seen an article defined as covering 2 notable topics, it obviously happened in "Thriller (album)" (notable singer+recording as stated above), plus even if no other article claimed 2 notable topics, Wikipedia does not restrict articles to be merely like other articles. Some relatives get wiki-notability per policy WP:Notability; quote: -
- "That [the fact] person A has a relationship with well-known person B, such as being their spouse, is not a reason for a standalone article on A (unless significant coverage can be found on A)".
Given that Paris K. Jackson (person A) is daughter to well-known Michael Jackson (person B), notability is proven by adding that "significant coverage can be found on A", especially after she spoke to 20,000, televised to millions, at the Jackson Memorial. Her instantly famous remark generated many retro-articles to be written about Paris K. Jackson; hence, now the article stems from 2 notable topics. I will list both on the page Talk:Children of Michael Jackson. Of course, it is very likely that his 2 sons can be shown as notable topics, but I think it is sufficient to justify the article as existing for 2 notable topics. The article cannot be deleted as covering a "non-notable topic" per WP:N, unless both could be discounted, which is highly unlikely. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC) -
- As I have repeatedly said, if Paris Jackson derives notability simply from talking at her father's memorial, then that means that she doesn't get an article per WP:BLP1E - cover the event and not the person - we already have an article about his memorial, so this tidbit of information can go there. Michael Jackson is covered as a notable person in the article Michael Jackson, and his children do not inherit his notability. These claims to notability have been discounted by an large number of participants above. Fritzpoll (talk) 08:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Further discussion 2 Discussion of the AfD continues below (if new to this debate, please read the 2 special sub-sections above, #Recap up to 12-July-09 & #Proposal to rename/move). The renaming codes AN1-AN4 were defined as of 14July09. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC) - Comment. Thus far, there have been 50 distinctly discernible opinions proffered here. Of those, 36 have recommended either delete or merge with a parent article. This strikes me as clearly discernible consensus that this article should not exist on its own. Given the BLP concerns with having an article written about three minor children, of whom, only one's voice has even been heard, this article should be deleted very soon. Walls of text posted by Wikid77 aside, I have read not one convincing argument as to why the BLP concerns regarding the minor children should be ignored in this case. It also seems very non-standard for Wikid77 to continue to try to offer "summaries" of the discussion, in which he offers yet another long discourse on his views. It makes for difficult reading for those new to the discussion, and that is not helpful at all. Unitanode 16:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
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- Wikipedia consensus is based on logical agreement with policies, rather than agreement as a simple majority being 36 of 50 replies. Think of the WP-policies as participants at the discussion table. Also, feel free to ignore my summary comments, if you personally wish, but my intention is not to clutter the debate but, rather, summarize (word "recap") all the major issues and the debate points considered for each issue. As the opinions number over 50, then I am trying to combine repeated issues into perhaps 10. I have been a judge for several school debate conferences, so I tend to be thorough, as required in formal debates. I'm sorry if that seems "non-standard" but that's the norm in debates, and I am trying to keep the comments as short as possible, hence some issues have been omitted in the interest of brevity. This discussion needs to be even longer, in all fairness to others. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- It is non-standard, it does clutter and obscure the discussion, and policies are not on your side in this in any way. I'd encourage you to step back from this, allow it to be closed as "delete" (which it almost certainly will), and revisit the issue if and when any of these three children actually become notable in their own right. Unitanode 17:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- Comment Upon closer examination I have begun to grow doubtful that this page currently does or will continue to exist as a subarticle describing Michael Jackson's fatherhood. Two paragraphs found in the lead and nearly half the text on Paris concern events that follow Jackson's death (the performance in the memorial service, and custody hearing). If this were a sub-article restricted to the scope of Michael Jackson's fatherhood this information would be seen as exceeding that scope. This article's current name, "The children of Michael Jackson", indicates comprehensive coverage of that topic - the lives of three non-notable children both with and without their father. The other titles proposed do not reflect the information currently written in this page; the prose of the article is written with the children - and not Michael - as the topic of focus, and as stated before there is information here concerning them that exceeds his parenthood. Wikid has proposed that a sub-article concerning Michael Jackson as a father is warranted (a point I am still willing to argue against), however the article presented here is not the one being postulated. Solid State Survivor (talk) 18:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
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- When his daughter says publicly, "Daddy was the best father you can possibly imagine..." - I think the scope just got bigger. Plus, she stood in front of 20,000 as viewed by 1 billion ("now remember you'll be on camera all the time"), so I think the scope just got a WHOLE LOT bigger to include the memorial service. Jackson's impact as a father goes beyond his life. We don't stop talking about Van Gogh, as a painter, because he died and can't talk to other artists. Plus suppose Jackson left a secret note to be read, only, when she turns 18? -Wikid77 (talk) 13:50, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
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- Then when the note is revealed, she can be afforded a Wikipedia article. We can't give people articles on the basis that they might become notable Fritzpoll (talk) 14:17, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- Keep. The topic meets our general notability guidelines. To me, it's that simple. Fences&Windows 23:05, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Definitley keep per Fences and Windows. It does meet the guidelines. Besides, this is not just the children of any Average Joe, these are the children of MICHAEL JACKSON.--The LegendarySky Attacker 23:43, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- To both the above: no, it doesn't meet the notability requirements for people.
-
-
- Yes, they are notable per WP:N allowing for "significant coverage" as relatives of notables; quote from WP:Notability: "That person A has a relationship with well-known person B, such as being their spouse, is not a reason for a standalone article on A (unless significant coverage can be found on A)". This has led me to launch subsection (above) "#Has 2 notable topics". -Wikid77 (talk) 19:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- Please stop "launching subsections" to reply to nearly every single deletion recommendation. These children have done nothing on their own to merit an article, save being the children of a famous person. It's a clear violation of the notability policy, as well as our policy on BLPs. No amount of textwalling will change that. Unitanode 17:27, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete. They are not the children of Michael Jackson. They are the children of Debbie Rowe. If kept, the article needs to be moved to Children of Debbie Rowe. Nashassum (talk) 23:54, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- While I agree that it should be deleted, moving an article in the middle of a deletion discussion is highly disruptive. If an administrator watching this page could undo the move, that would be appreciated. Unitanode 00:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- Strong delete No offence meant, but someday these kids may be notable on their own - how could they not, really (think Sean Lennon). At that point, yes, they shall get an article. Until then, keep them with their "father". (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- Delete. I was the first person to argue for keeping this article (see my comment above, on 9 July), but coming back to it now, it's become considerably more detailed and privacy-invading than it was when I made that comment. I've changed my mind, and I now think that for BLP reasons (particularly 'do no harm' and 'presume in favour of privacy'), it must be deleted. A certain amount of information about Jackson's children in other articles is acceptable, but this degree of coverage is excessive and unnecessarily intrusive. We're an encyclopaedia, not a tabloid newspaper. Robofish (talk) 14:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- Question I'm assuming that if this is deleted that it will be archived? 208.119.72.6 Wolfpeaceful (talk) 17:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- Comment The source in the lead sentence of the article claiming "notability" is really nothing but an article about the Family Trust; this does not establish notability; it merely mentions the children's inheritence after their father's death; "notable as a legal entity" is not technically accurate; the children themselves are not legal property... also Family Trusts are not an uncommon practice... Wolfpeaceful (talk) 17:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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and so forth might be copyrighted?? (Maybe you're punning on the word "derivative"?)