General Site directory • Editor's index • Image and media copyright • Admins' noticeboard • Incidents • General sanctions • Page protection • Bot noticeboard Content Content noticeboard • Biographies of living persons • Ethnic and religious conflicts • Fiction • Fringe theories • Original research • Neutral point of view • Reliable sources • Copyright violations and wide-scale infringements • Spam • Proposed mergers • External links User issues User page help • New user help • Editor assistance • Help desk • Vandalism • Improper usernames • Open proxies • Sockpuppets • Oversight • Long term abuse • ISP reporting • Conflict of interest Noticeboards Edit warring & 3RR • Wikiquette alerts • Arbitration: Requests / Enforcement • Mediation: Formal / Informal • Requests for comment • Requests for feedback • Drawing board

Click here to purge this page (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge)

Shortcuts: WP:AN/I WP:ANI WP:AIN Welcome to the incident noticeboard. This page is for reporting and discussing incidents on the English Wikipedia that require the intervention of administrators. Any user of Wikipedia may post here. Please include diffs to help us find the problem you are reporting. You must notify any user that you discuss. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} to do so. Frivolous complaints and unsubstantiated requests for administrator intervention do not belong here. Please do not clutter this page with accusations or side-discussions within a discussion. Before posting a grievance about a user here, please discuss the issue with them on their user talk page. For incidents involving the possible misuse of administrative powers, please attempt to engage in discussions with the admin before posting here.
Are you in the right place?	How to use this page
To report persistent vandalism or spamming, see administrator intervention against vandalism. To report impolite or uncivil communications with other editors, see wikiquette alerts. To report improper deletion or request undeletion, see deletion review. To report improper usernames, see usernames for administrator attention. To request page protection, see requests for page protection. To report edit warring, see the administrators' edit warring noticeboard. To report long time edit warring/abuse, see Long term abuse. To report suspected sockpuppetry, see Sockpuppet investigations. To start a ban discussion, see the administrators' noticeboard. To request permanent deletion of dangerous personal information, see requests for oversight. DO NOT make such requests here; reports here are visible to everyone. To get assistance in resolving disputes, please see dispute resolution.	Please add new incident reports to the bottom of this page. Sign your post with "~~~~", which translates into a signature and a time stamp automatically. When moving long threads to a subpage, add a link to the subpage and sign without a timestamp: "~~~"; this prevents premature archiving. Move to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/[concise title]. Also consider adding/updating a status tag (e.g. {{unresolved}}). Lengthy posts may be placed within a toggling collapse box. Use {{subst:Collapse top}} at the top and {{subst:Collapse bottom}} at the bottom. Threads will be archived automatically after 24 hours of inactivity. If you see a thread that should not be archived yet, please add a comment requesting more discussion, or if it is already archived, remove it from the archive and restore it to this page, preferably with a comment.
Requests for Comment on User Conduct Candidate pages (user) Approved pages (user) Gill Giller Gillerger: It is alleged that Gill Giller Gillerger does not listen to consensus and is uncooperative with other users. 09:53, 28 November 2009 (UTC) Cush: It is alleged that Cush has consistently been uncivil and refused to assume good faith, and has explicitly stated that religious editors should not be allowed to edit articles related to religious subjects because of a perceived conflict of interest. 14:53, 4 November 2009 (UTC) Candidate pages (admins) Approved pages (admins) Rjanag: It is alleged that Rjanag has engaged in a pattern of serious, persistent misconduct: untruths, incivility, personal attacks, profanity, wikihounding, bad faith, bullying, edit warring, gaming the system, hidden conflict of interest, and admin tools misuse. This RfC/U follows the advice given by arbitrators when the relevant request for arbitration was declined. 08:19, 4 November 2009 (UTC) Candidate pages (bots) Approved pages (bots)
What this page is not
This page is not part of our dispute resolution process for content issues.

---

Contents 1 Continual re-creation of deleted article about 'Team Touchdown' 2 Incivility and hate-speech at Talk:Crucifixion 3 Shopping for an appropriate forum 4 Please ban two users from article Gilad Atzmon 5 Slrubenstein 5.1 Die4Dixie blocked 5.2 Looking forward 5.3 Die4Dixie Unblocked, Community Ban Proposed 5.4 Alternatives to a ban 5.5 Request for non-Jewish admin "possibly legitimate" 5.6 Arb 5.7 Motion to Close 5.8 Motion to Collapse 6 Unsupported attacks by Redheylin after warnings 6.1 Update: Continued violations by Redheylin 6.2 Disagreement with Cirt's analysis 6.3 Requested block of User:ChildofMidnight 6.4 Requested desysop of Cirt, GWH, and John Carter 6.5 Proposed: Redheylin topic banned from Cirt 6.6 Jayen466 6.7 Buy me a new microwave as per WP:Overheat and WP:Humor 7 Tarc's relentless antagonism and trolling 8 IP used for reverts in Israeli-Palestinian disputes 9 People like me are the reason why people can never really trust Wikipedia. 10 98.234.169.63 = Fastily? 11 Request a review of my block of Lomcevak 12 Incipient edit war at Josip Broz Tito 13 User:86.136.89.238‎‎ - reblock needed 14 Bot welcomes, guestbooks, welcome template images 15 User:Throwaway85 16 Acceptable behavior? 17 User:Zaferk keeps putting fraudulent templates on his userboard 17.1 The farce of Wikipedia's user space conventions 18 User:203.45.210.58 is vandalising David Thorne (writer) 18.1 User:Simon Dempsey 18.2 Content added by troll 19 Incivility by Radeksz 20 Ban of User:TrEeMaNsHoE? 21 Evidence of bribery for favorable user statements & related AfD 22 Someone please do something about User:Hasbro sp. 23 Ford GT (ongoing) 24 User:English Bobby & Personal Attacks 25 User:Donkeyherder1 and User:Donkeyherder2 26 Marshal of the Soviet Union 27 Copyvio images moved to Commons 28 Help with copyright violation on new article 29 Request for oversight or revision hiding 30 AFD for the 2009 White House gatecrash incident 31 Jimmy Slade (talk · contribs)

[edit] Continual re-creation of deleted article about 'Team Touchdown'

(section did not archive automatically, so timestamp added. Fram (talk) 07:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC))

[edit] Incivility and hate-speech at Talk:Crucifixion

I have recently started a complaint that has now been archived at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive581#Canvassing at Crucifixion. I am concerned that it has been archived automatically and will be overlooked. To the best of my understanding, it has not been addressed. Thank you. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:00, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Isn't this now stale? What it is ongoing problem needing admin attention? Fences&Windows 19:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and I removed some of the personal attacks, but as far as I can see all of these NPAs came from random dynamic IPs that in all the cases I looked at haven't edited since. As such, blocks on the IP addresses would appear to be pointless. Is there something else I've missed? Black Kite 19:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Stale only in the sense that no one really ever did anything about it. Continuing personal attacks against me. I've moved some of them to my talk, not all of them. I really am disappointed that I should have to be subjected to this. I've done nothing wrong, and am being vilified for my views about content. This is no way for any editor to be treated. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:20, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

:::Is it possible to provide specific examples? Then your concerns can be looked at in better detail.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 19:41, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I've looked through this user's talk page history. Admins, any thoughts on this diff?--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 19:52, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

It is very alike to this diff.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 19:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Thank you. For a start, please take another look at the archived part, where I provided a huge number of diffs, and some of them, actually, were from registered users, then go forward through those users' contribution histories. If you'd like, I can then round up more diffs. P.S. after the edit conflict: yes, thanks for that too. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:59, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this was what I was talking about. Hasn't edited for over 48 hours, and is a dynamic IP. The only remaining IP still talking (unless I've missed something), is the 24.x.x.x one which is being slightly brusque but hardly incivil. If it was actually continuing the personal attacks which the other ones were, I would block it. Black Kite 19:57, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

True. But is there anything that can be done about the likely sockpuppetry? It is pretty much the same comment from 2 different IPs.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 20:00, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I just now actually looked at those diffs. In fairness, I have to say that the later one was made by reverting my removal of the first. (And that was very mild, compared to the diffs that I reported earlier.) But the whole business arose from off-site instigation at what is basically a hate site. I've been wondering about sockery in other contexts (an IP says something awful, then another editor immediately comes on with crocodile tears after making attacks earlier, etc.), but I don't see how I could make a strong enough case for CU. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:13, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I object to you throwing around the words "hate site" in reference to SA. It's crude and brusque at times, but it's not a hate site. I demand you revert such references.

After all, if Tryptofish is right about the registered users, can they be blocked?--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 20:06, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Or, at the very least, warned strongly. (Some have also been making nasty comments at other editors' talk pages.) --Tryptofish (talk) 20:13, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

In fact, wait a minute, about that 24. IP, take a look at User talk:ShuttheHeckUp. Last comment, repudiating warning from admin, is from that IP address, but in the voice of a registered user. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Can someone please do something about this, because it appears that we've only been scratching the surfaces of the problem here.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 20:44, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you! And this just now at my talk (including telling me to kill myself!). --Tryptofish (talk) 20:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

This as well, possible relation to the registered user whose name appears in the edit? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, looking at that. I semi'd your talkpage for a few days to head off any further stupidity. Black Kite 21:25, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I just noticed the semi, and I appreciate it a lot. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:33, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

A day later: the user you see in that link appears to be following me from page to page, and has put the anti-hate speech header that was recently on the article talk page onto his user talk page. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I recommend in future that you don't pick stuff like that up from the article and cart it back to your talkpage. It looks so much worse on an article talkpage, you're more likely to get something done about it. One of the IPs vandalised my talkpage and got offed by Materialscientist for its pains. I've thrown Yzak Jule off myself - so far he hasn't been back, though I don't know if he's been bothering the Fish. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Elen, I'm unsure what you mean. Are you referring to where I moved the bogus accusations about me to my talk? My reasoning was that it had nothing to do with the article talk page, and my replying to it was necessary but also unrelated to the article talk page. This is getting awfully tough for me: I get criticized when I say that I do not object to leaving the bad stuff on the article talk page, and then (if I understand?) I get criticized for moving it off. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:02, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Wasn't criticising you (sorry if it sounded that way), more along the lines of not taking stray dogs home. That rubbish may have been aimed at you, but leaving it on the article talkpage and ignoring it may have been a better option than shifting it to your talk page where, after all, you didn't actually want some of it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:14, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

What I didn't want at my talk has been reverted. My experience has been that rubbish that stays at the article ends up getting repeated as though it were true. Anyway, the admins don't need to read this (so maybe I'll move this to my talk -- joke!). --Tryptofish (talk) 23:20, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

You are quite correct Tryptofish, anon users and IPs frequently post slander that is repeated as if true, and administrators are untrained in dealing with this. What you need is a third party willing to delete talk page posts that add nothing to discussion of the article and malign you in attempt to discourage you from editing. Please feel free to drop a note at my talk page any time and I will evaluate posts you believe to be useless and injurious. I cannot promise to agree with you in any particular case. I might be a disappointment. But such posts breach the copyright license and the Foundation is duty bound to protect you, even if, as you do, you opt to exercise your right to publish anonymously. Alastair Haines (talk) 03:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Alastair, you might want to refactor that slightly. I agree that IPs in this case posted a great deal of uncivil nonsense. I don't think it's an issue about admin training. If anything had been said that actually constituted slander (as opposed to abuse) Tryptofish was free to highlight that. But what you're saying about copyright license is just....nonsense. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, both of you. I appreciate that both of you are sympathetic, and I trust that the admins, will, in due course, do what they believe best helps Wikipedia. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

And, at this point, I'd just like to check back about where we stand. As Sky Attacker so very correctly said, we have yet to really scratch the surface of a significant problem here (not just for me personally, but for the good of the entire Wiki). So, I'll repeat Sky Attacker's question: can someone please do something about this? Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 17:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Exactly what is to be done? The civility and WP:NPA issues on the talk page have now subsided. Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Wikipedia, not to punish users. If the disruptive behavior has stopped, then there is no reason to hand out blocks. —Farix (t | c) 22:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Farix, it hasn't stopped. It may be moving more to my talk page, but it hasn't stopped. And per above, there may be other issues including sockery. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the history of your talk page, that's already been dealt with with your talk page semi-protected. If it continues, you need to cite specific diffs rather then vaguely cry that someone needs to "do something". —Farix (t | c) 23:08, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I need to ask this, and I realize it sounds kind of obnoxious, but please understand that I don't mean anything bad by it. Farix, you aren't an admin, are you? (If I'm wrong, please accept my apology for even asking!) If you aren't, please let the admins continue to look at what I think they are looking at. Again, sorry for the way that sounds. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Few administrators are going to act on anything until there is clear evidence. If you have an issue with an editor, you need to bring it along with the diffs. —Farix (t | c) 01:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

And now, please see: [4], [5], and [6]. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Copy editing, help with sourcing, and a joke? Why, that's the most uncivil thing I've ever seen. Certainly this nefarious user should be banned from Wikipedia forever for helping out other articles noticed under a user's contributions while checking to see if he was violating consensus again. Also, why is this on ANI?Yzak Jule (talk)

<Comment removed at request of Tryptofish>Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:54, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Elen, but no need to remove, just to clarify that you meant it in a light-hearted way, and that you weren't really making a joke at my expense. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:21, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Looks like a potential WP:STALKING case to me. Yzak Jule, I advice you to completely disengage from Tryptofish, that includes not following him around in his edit history. It doesn't do either of you any good. Tryptofish, if Yzak Jule keeps following you around, start a new complaint with the diffs. —Farix (t | c) 01:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Farix, those points are very well-taken, and I will do so. And to Alastair, below, I do understand that, overall, there are plenty of people being supportive of me, so thanks for that too. But please let me suggest to other editors that it is unhelpful to be making jokes (even if, as I suspect, they were meant as affectionate jibes) at my expense. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Excellent advice from these people Trypt, if you ask me. Certainly I couldn't help better with what you've posted. If there's serious stuff, it can take forever to go through processes designed to screen out trivia like these last three diffs you've posted. Too many people cry "Wolf", and genuine pleas for assistance go unheeded. If there's serious stuff, I volunteer to be your first "informal" attempt at mediation. Don't hit people with clubs when a simple third party could clear it up. Relax, enjoy, there's plenty of people here being really supportive to you. Three cheers for them! :) Alastair Haines (talk) 04:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Dec. 4: Continuing personal attacks and vandalism of my user page ("America hates you" etc.). I'm going to take it to page protection, just noting it here. The semi-protection of Talk:Crucifixion has expired and edit warring over vandalism by IPs has resumed (reverts by other editors, I'm trying to keep hands-off), so uninvolved admins may want to look at whether extending semi there might be a good idea. I notice that some of the editors who reverted vandalism there did not put the usual warnings on talk pages of the vandals, so admins may also want to go back and make sure that gets done (again, should not be me doing it). (Also, it might be a good idea for uninvolved admins to keep an eye on Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 December 2#File:Sailor Mercury.jpg.) Thank you. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:28, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Shopping for an appropriate forum

Hey, the shopping season has officially started, right? I'm looking for the right forum in which to discuss my concerns about a particular editor. There are several issues that touch upon many categories, while not fitting neatly into any single category. Do I shotgun my concerns to the various distinct but applicable noticeboards, or is there an industrious admin with significant free time reading this who can formulate a comprehensive, single course of action? Here's the background information followed by my specific concerns:

On November 6, User:96.231.137.242 added a paragraph to the Bill Maher BLP article. I removed it because it violated several WP:BLP policy stipulations including sourcing, verifiability and inaccurate contentious material. This was my first interaction with this editor. He repeatedly reinserted the content, so I warned him against edit warring and BLP violations. He was blocked for 31 hours for 3RR and edit warring. Immediately following the block of IP96.xxx, User:DyadTriad appears and continues arguing for the inclusion of that same paragraph, eventually re-adding it. Shortly after that, User:Valerius Tygart picks up the same argument, and starts re-adding the same content. I heard ducks quacking, so I initiated a Sockpuppet Investigation here. Checkuser confirmed 96.231.137.242 = DyadTriad = Valerius Tygart, among others. The editor admits using the many registered and unregistered accounts, but denies using them abusively - contrary to the findings of the SPI case page and the checkuser results. Several of his sock accounts were blocked, and the case archived. Since then, Valerius Tygart has resumed re-inserting the contentious paragraph into the Maher article once per day, each day, for over two weeks now — despite objections from editors on the talk page. In addition, this editor has been attempting to modify his archived Sockpuppet Investigation case page, to the point of getting himself blocked yet again for disruptive editing. Despite (and during) this block, as I type this, he is still maintaining his slow-burn edit war on the Maher article with his Tygart account.

As for forums, I could post on the WP:BLPN so that other editors can tell Tygart what he already knows: he's trying to insert poorly sourced content into a BLP that intentionally misrepresents the subject's views, against policy. But that doesn't stop the repeated reverts. I could post at the 3RR/Edit Warring noticeboard, but the once-per-day revert war doesn't technically violate 3RR, does it? Perhaps I should go to WP:RFPP and request page protection until the BLP violations are resolved? I could go to the SPI noticeboard and say, "Hey - this confirmed puppeteer is editing with some of his accounts while his other accounts are blocked for disruptive editing - what gives?", but the case is already closed. Any suggestions? Xenophrenic (talk) 22:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Here would appear to be the best place. Did the SPI conclude that Valerius Tygart was the sockmaster? If so, a longer block would seem appropriate. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:01, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

If what you say is true, then this reeks of gaming. I would suggest a longer than usual ban just to beat it into people's heads that no, we aren't idiots, and we can see what you're trying to do. Things like a once per day edit to avoid 1/3rr is clearly an attempt to skirt the rules. Give them a long ban, and keep them on a short leash when they get back. If they can't play nice, then indef-block. Throwaway85 (talk) 23:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I suggest that User:Valerius Tygart be indef-blocked for disruptive editing. Using an IP to tamper with his own sockpuppet report takes the cake. (If you're trying to convince people that you're an incorrigible sockpuppeteer, that's a good way to do it). He should be told that the block could be lifted if he would agree to edit with only a single account, and refrain from editing the Bill Maher article. He could still participate on the article's talk page. EdJohnston (talk) 02:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I was the admin who blocked IP 96.231.137.242 for edit-warring at Bill Maher, recommended the filing of the SPI, and then blocked the confirmed sock accounts after confirming that they were being used abusively. At that stage I blocked the sockmaster Valerius Tygart (talk · contribs) only for 31 hours in order not to be punitive, and assuming that the socking and disruption would stop. Given that the sockpuppetry has been goind on for over two years and has continued even after the SPI confirmation, I support EdJohnston's suggestion above. Additionally, the Bill Maher article can be semi-protected, if needed to prevent such disruption. Abecedare (talk) 03:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

That puts the icing on the SPI cake! Have you blocked the IP already? - _{Boeing7107isdelicious|SPRiCh miT meineN PiloteN} 12:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Tygart has used at least these 2 IPs since the closure of his SPI case: User:96.231.137.242 and User:140.139.35.250. They appear to be static, not dynamic IPs. Tygart claims to use multiple accounts "legitimately", but I stopped assuming good faith after checkuser J.delanoy confirmed Tygart = 140.139.35.250 = Dogwood123, but Tygart denies ever being deceptive or saying, I am not "Dogwood123". Either Tygart or J.delanoy is lying, and I know where I'd put my money. Xenophrenic (talk) 19:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Someone is playing possum. Still unsure of an appropriate forum. Xenophrenic (talk) 23:00, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Please ban two users from article Gilad Atzmon

There has been a long term edit war between CarolMooreDC and Drsmoo on article Gilad Atzmon. They have been on various mediations and raised wikiquette alerts and suchlike but it goes on an on, the latest such complaint is at WP:WQA#User:Drsmoo (revised per comments).

I have suggested on the WQA that both editors should be banned from that article for some months and let other editors have a go at it. I think banning both would lead to least rancour between theeditors and hopefully let them both go off and do something more useful instead. Editor User:Malik Shabazz concurs with this view. Drsmoo agrees but CarolMooreDC is not happy with such a ban. Can this be done or is there a better way of dealing with a problem like this please? Dmcq (talk) 01:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

In fact CarolMooreDC now says at the end of that WQA they agree with a voluntary block for two montrhs but wants something stuck in the article. your call. Dmcq (talk) 01:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

As Dmcq noted above, I support banning the two editors from the article, either temporarily or permanently. I tried to work with them on a compromise in April, but nothing came of it. Full disclosure: I've made a handful of small edits to the article. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 05:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the article ban, I don't think any changes should be made to the article per any of our wishes before the ban though, or any sections deleted by admins not working on the article. If the other editors working on the page feel that a section should be removed and changed, then they should do that themselves after discussion.

Similarly, earlier this year there was a 6 month lock on the article. Immediately after the article was unlocked, CarolmooreDC proceeded to remove a whole section, and the edit war resumed exactly as it had been. Along with the constant personal attacks against me on noticeboards. With a 2 month ban, it will just be the exact same thing again.

I have no objection to both of us being permanently banned from the article, IPs included, to prevent any sock puppetry. I have confidence that the Wikipedia community will ensure that the article follows guidelines. Drsmoo (talk) 12:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully people will read the whole Wikiquette Alert I initiated to deal with issues with Drsmoo in a WP:Biography of Living Persons which had had an WP:OTRS. It still had some WP:RS, WP:OR and POV problems which I could not address without constant reverts by Drsmoo and constantly being followed everywhere I tried to get neutral opinions with false allegations, among others, that I was trying to turn the article into a "defense of his anti-semitism." An obvious personal attack inferring I am an antisemite. This latest, not perfect, attempt for an NPOV section without WP:OR disproves that. CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

It was your Wikiquette alert that precipitated this. That you decided to completely impose your POV changes, re-lengthening the article you claimed you had shortened (which you shortened only technically, almost sarcastically, and that was about 3-4x longer than the Hipcorite and SlimVirgin edits) despite no one agreeing with them is another of the reasons this is where it is. You haven't waited for a single noticeboard to make a decision, or accepted any of them. I mean you were even working behind the scenes with other editors on your talk page, outside the article talk page, and badmouthing other editors http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Carolmooredc&diff=279500434&oldid=279498060 "Also, what to do about Rance? He's been rather sneaky about getting his own writings in there without his name being mentioned (going to fix that now) but not as bad as THF and Drsmoo" Why are you so unwilling to let the rest of the wikipedia community, outside the two of us, work on this article by themselves? Drsmoo (talk) 16:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Drsmoo, you are bringing up inaccurately described or irrelevant issues from before the 5 month protection period. The only relevant issue from that time is an Admin's advice on April 6 that Drsmoo was being “unnecessarily confrontational” and, after further incidents, on April 9 against “derogatory views" against Atzmon or other editors. Obviously I should have come to Wikietiquette immediately after Drsmoo's first accusation against me once the article was unprotected. I see that Wikipedia:Civility#Dealing_with_incivility may recommend it more quickly than I originally had interpreted. I have learned my lesson. CarolMooreDC (talk) 20:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

And I should have reported you for incivility when you began attacking me over a year ago (October 2008) which you have continued until today http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Drsmoo&diff=prev&oldid=247998967 "your questionable edits which delete sourced material and defend only with POV personal opinions" http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gilad_Atzmon&diff=prev&oldid=247805478 "pushing your personal POV opinion" and on and on and on for over a year, even when you were censured for editing with "an appalling lack of good faith" you continued attacking me. This is the last time I'm going to trade back and forths with you, period. Please explain why you are so unwilling to let the rest of the wikipedia community, outside the two of us, work on this article by themselves? Drsmoo (talk) 20:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────────┘
Will you two please stop bringing your petty bickering to every forum in which your names are mentioned. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment. I was involved with this article a while back (6 months+?), my involvement originating with a WP:BLPN post. It was obvious then that a number of editors were using the article as a battleground, with persistent attempts to quote the subject's political statements (he's a musician, BTW) out of context, and generally developing a WP:COATRACK. Many of the subject's statements are somewhat inflammatory in this controversial area, but attempts to explain the subject's reasoning were always resisted and sidelined, in an attempt (occasionally explicitly stated) to show that the subject is anti-semitic, rather than merely intensely critical of Israel.

Drsmoo was one of a number of editors pursuing this position, whilst CaroleMooreDC was attempting a more balanced article. Without delving into the ins and outs of the dispute resolution of this interminable issue (who said what to whom), it's clear to me that it is in the best interests of Wikipedia for Drsmoo to be permanently banned from editing the article. At the same time, I'd suggest a two-month voluntary ban for CaroleMoore. I think both can be trusted to use the talk page appropriately, but that remains to be seen. Rd232 ^talk 15:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I have never once been warned of any bad behavior for any of my edits. Calling for me alone to be permanently banned from editing the article, solely because you disagree with my positions is disturbing; especially so, given that you haven't provided any reasons, and yourself state that my editing position is the same as that of many of the editors who have worked on the article (in fact the consensus.) The article has changed a great deal since you were editing it, and now uses solely quotes from high quality reliable news sources such as the Times of London and The Guardian, and no first person sources. After constant noticeboards, not a single one has found the sources and quotes used to be out of context. Drsmoo (talk) 22:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh, but it's not the case that you have never been warned for bad behaviour. Tedder warned you on 16 October, and I warned you on 12 November; in both cases, for edit warring and potential 3RR on the Atzmon article. RolandR 16:55, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment—it's certainly a problem when an editor makes over 100 non-minor edits to an article (or over 200 in Carol Moore's case) without adding new content, or adding very little new content. Even without an in-depth review of the case, it indicates that perhaps the article is better off without these edits. I support an indefinite article ban for Carol Moore, who has been edit-warring on the article for more than a year, and far longer than Drsmoo. As for Drsmoo, a temporary ban would probably suffice, as we haven't seen what his editing habits on the article would be like had Carol Moore not edited it, therefore I am in favor of giving him an extra chance in the future if he positively contributes to other articles on Wikipedia. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 23:43, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Personally I think Drsmoo and Carol are equally to blame for treating the article like a WP:BATTLEGROUND and should be treated the same. As far as Drsmoo's contributions to other articles are concerned, 38% of his mainspace edits and 57% of his Talkpage edits are on this article. If not for his interest in Freddy Adu, Drsmoo would be considered a WP:SPA. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:10, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Slrubenstein

collapsed so as not to take up half of ANI, per suggestion
The following is an archived debate. Please do not modify it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&limit=1&username=Slrubenstein {{discussion top}} User:Slrubenstein, an admin with a dubious history, is engaging in personal attacks,assuming bad faith, and commenting on editors rather than edits here: [[7]]. Could someone please caution him? This, coupled with his recent abusive uses of the tools, tends to show a disregard for the normative behavour expected from tool weilding editors.--Die4Dixie (talk) 05:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I have notified the editor in question. But, um, are you sure this is the right one? Basket of Puppies 05:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Yes. I had notified him. Are you sure you notified the right person?--Die4Dixie (talk) 05:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I clicked on the link you provided and got some user from 2005. I am awfully confused. Basket of Puppies 05:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC) All sorted out. Carry on. Basket of Puppies 05:34, 2 December 2009 (UTC) (EC) I see a somewhat heated discussion, but that does tend to happen with subjects such as this. You may wish to seek dispute resolution. (And I feel compelled to add that, for the record, the Holocaust claimed many victims other than Jews; although many of the victims were Jewish, it was not exclusively Jews who were persecuted.) Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I am not seeking content mediation. I want him to cease his behavour. The issue is not as to if they are Jews or Gentiles, but his accusations of trolling, assumption of bad faith, personal attacks, and incivility.--Die4Dixie (talk) 05:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Slrubenstein isn't an administrator as far as I can tell, but his comment does seem to assume bad faith--Crossmr (talk) 05:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC) No admin action needed. Strong rhetoric when discussing a strong topic—carry on smartly. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 05:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC) With all due respect, I am not in your army. This needs to be addressed. It oes not have to be by you. You are dismissed.Die4Dixie (talk) 05:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Plaxico! Hipocrite (talk) 05:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC) {{discussion bottom}} http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&limit=1&username=Slrubenstein [edit] Die4Dixie blocked After reading this, I've come to the conclusion that this was a premature close. Slrubenstein IS an administrator, and his actions in this case were inappropriate. WQA is useless, I know from experience. I think this would be solved if Slrubenstein was given a friendly reminder about civility from an administrator; then Die4Dixie would no longer have any reason to complain. --William S. Saturn (talk) 05:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC) (edit conflict) I am blocking the original poster Die4Dixie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) for WP:POINT for the following reasons: This edit, which appears to be designed to get a rise out of others. Filing a frivolous complaint against a content opponent (this thread).[8] Including personal attacks in the complaint ("an admin with a dubious history"). [same diff as prior] Block log shows multiple prior blocks including one about 64 days ago for WP:POINT that was lifted early in good faith, and one 14 days later for disruptive editing. You've been put on notice about how to behave at Wikipedia, but the clues aren't getting through. [9] You're continuing to battle on this thread even after told you have no case.[10] Take a week off, and when you come back keep in mind that Wikipedia is not for ideological struggle. If that principle doesn't agree with your objectives, then you'll have to find another pastime. Jehochman Talk 05:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC) For the record, when I look at the rights of User:Slrubenstein it shows him as having +sysop. Other than that I agree with the closing and blocking Admins. Crafty (talk) 05:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Actually I'd like to +1 the call for a civility reminder to Slrubentein. I'm not going to argue OP's block, as that is an entirely seperate matter, but my impression of Slrubenstein from my dealings with him have left much to be desired. I found him to be hotheaded and emotional, and quick to use his tools without bothering to gain a full understanding of the situation. Perhaps a friendly reminder by an established editor would encourage more appropriate behaviour. Throwaway85 (talk) 06:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC) FYI: the blocked user has, on his talk page, requested a block template with appeal form so he can appeal the block. — Sizzle Flambé (☎/✍) 06:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC) All the while suggesting that he was blocked as part of some jewish conspiracy. Yeesh. Crafty (talk) 06:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Die4Dixie has shown their agenda with the following edit Hochman, I really question your blocking on behalf of another Jew in this case. . Is there another admin who could review this matter, please, and determine whether this warrants an increase to indefinite blocking? Jehochman Talk 06:19, 2 December 2009 (UTC) The user obviously was angry over the block, and is under the impression that it was due to a perception of anti-semitism from a Jewish editor. --William S. Saturn (talk) 06:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC) It's an absurd excuse to indef someone over. No, it does not warrant increasing to indef. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I agree 100% with the above user. --William S. Saturn (talk) 06:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC) He has resorted to a base anti-semitic slur and it warrants an indef. Crafty (talk) 06:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Indeffed. I don't normally block for "venting", but he needed to be shown the door months ago. Protonk (talk) 06:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I don't see it as venting really... If I were reprimanded by two admins whose names sounded to be of a similar ethnicity, especially when the topic of dispute was ethnic-related, I might suspect impropriety as well. And what did he do "months ago"? Equazcion (talk) 06:36, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Was there discussion that future "venting" would result in an indefinite block? --William S. Saturn (talk) 06:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC) What? Protonk (talk) 06:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I think William meant "Was the user warned that further 'venting' would result in an increased block duration?" Equazcion (talk) 06:41, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Also like to hear an answer to my concerns further above, kindly. Equazcion (talk) 06:42, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Please check the user's block log and contribution history. Take in a broader view of what he's been doing around Wikipedia. Jehochman Talk 06:45, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Could you provide diffs or links to previous discussions about the user's behavior? It would be easier for you to find such things if you know of them (or Protonk who seems to have had previous experience with this user) than for me to go searching blindly through the contribs listing. Equazcion (talk) 06:48, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) I mean, don't take this the wrong way, but permission granted not to leap to the users defense if you don't know any of the history. Protonk (talk) 06:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC) "I know the reason; and that's all you need to know." --Well how much easier our lives could be made if that were a valid response. You've blocked someone indefinitely and this is ANI, so I'm asking for your reason. I find that a somewhat acceptable request. Equazcion (talk) 06:57, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) It's totally reasonable for you to ask. My point was that if you are going to ask for diffs and insinuate I have some personal history then it behooves you to acquaint yourself with the arbcom case he has been involved in, his block log, and the numerous AN/I threads about or instigated by him. Protonk (talk) 07:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I wasn't insinuating anything beyond the fact that you might be the best person to ask for links, since you mentioned that the user should have been indeffed long ago. I assumed you had some reason to say that. Thanks for eventually giving me at least some clues to go on now, as difficult as it has been to pry actual information out of you. Equazcion (talk) 07:09, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) My mistake on the RFAR. I'm not sure what I was thinking of, probably this thread. Protonk (talk) 03:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Strong support, no disrespect to those above but you cannot make accusations based on editors perceived (or real) ethnicity, no way, no how. Sometimes it's ambiguous, here it isn't. Consider an unblock if he sincerely apologizes. Mackan79 (talk) 06:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC) No, he wasn't. He's been expected to behave in a collegial manner since he got here. instead he has spent his entire time here angling to construe conflicts as grand conspiracies. At some point you reach a level of disruption and malfeasance where it isn't worth the effort to put up with you. he has been there and beyond for some time. Protonk (talk) 06:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I don't object on that basis at all, but there's no doubting here that this could have handled a lot better than it has (or in fact, should've) been. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC) In case anybody thinks I might be biased in favor of Slrubenstein, please review Wikipedia:Requests for comment/SlrubensteinII. Jehochman Talk 06:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I didn't suggest that -- but rather than being offered the link you just provided us, the user who was so concerned was blocked indefinitely for possibly making the insinuation. Equazcion (talk) 06:44, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) That would've been a more ideal response rather than adding more drama to an already poorly handled situation. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Give me a break. He asked that only gentiles review his unblock request. Completely inappropriate and I fully support this block. AniMate 06:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Let's get back to the initial block. D4D came here to ask that Slrubenstein be cautioned for using the term "trolling". William S. Saturn, for one, agreed that this is in order. Jehochman then blocked D4D for bringing a frivolous case, and for persisting in it? I'm a bit taken aback here. Not happy about the slur, of course, but first things first.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC) ^Agreed. The user in question is certainly not my favorite person, but the sequence of events that led to the indef is out of whack. Equazcion (talk) 06:55, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) (edit conflict) How thoroughly have you reviewed the contribution history and block log of Die4Dixie? He's been blocked twice since the end of September for disruptive editing. He was posting flamebait at Talk:Holocaust.[11] When an editor predictably responded, he ran here to file a complaint against the editor. That's cynical, battlefield behavior. We do not need such editors at Wikipedia. Jehochman Talk 06:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC) What you call "flamebait" I rather see as evidence that the user is either dumb or inexperienced with regard to Holocaust information. Perhaps AGF? Unless there's more in his contribution history to support the accusation of deliberate trolling, which so far hasn't been forthcoming... Equazcion (talk) 07:00, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) See now come ON. Protonk (talk) 07:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC) That's... a really great point. Way to be constructive. Equazcion (talk) 07:03, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) I'm not going to get lectured by someone who sees "This doesn't seem to be an image of Jews, as they are not circumcised.Perhaps, unless we want to expand the Holocaust to include non Jews, we should just stick to pictures of Jews for this article" on Talk:Holocaust and insists that he's not trolling but instead he's just conveniently ignorant of the holocaust. that doesn't pass the laugh test, sorry. Protonk (talk) 07:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I'm not insisting he's ignorant. I'm just suggesting it as a possibility. This is how AGF works; we try to assume the best scenario rather than the worst. Sorry for my errm lecturing. Equazcion (talk) 07:11, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) And my response is that such a suggestion doesn't even pass the laugh test. AGF is not (quoting spartaz paraphrasing Posner) a suicide pact. Asserting that his comment was made out of some innocence of the context requires a heroic assumption of good faith which would at best be extended to an editor who didn't have a history of trolling or who didn't respond to his block by suggesting that the jewishness of the admin made it illegitimate or that the two jewish admins conspired, devised if you will, to block him. No. Sorry. I'm not buying it. Protonk (talk) 07:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I might be inclined to consider your "laugh test" assessment, if the comment could be considered offensive. As I said below, I don't quite see how it could be considered that. In order for trolling to be evident, the user would have had to say something offensive, in order to incite an argument. I'm not sure what was so offensive about the statement to begin with, that would make us question the motive behind it. Stupidity alone doesn't seem a likely candidate for bad-faith. See me comment further down, that starts with "(edit conflict)Another problem I have..." Equazcion (talk) 07:57, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Oh and my mother isn't jewish. Protonk (talk) 06:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Comment: Administrators should not be so quick to block due to their perceptions of bigotry in an individual. In matters such as this, there should be a community consensus. --William S. Saturn (talk) 07:04, 2 December 2009 (UTC) For reference, I am a "gentile" (I presume an atheist counts?), and I'm fully in support of the block. Bigotry is not acceptable here, whoever it may be directed against. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC) As far as I can see, D4D was initially blocked for bringing this matter to AN/I, persisting in it, and having a block history. That is what Jehochman says. I do not see that these are blockable offenses.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC) (Edit Conflict)That's my interpretation as well. His comments may be inappropriate, but I do not see them as blatantly racist. Saying that one jewish editor was leaping to another jewish editor's aid is not helpful, but its not racist. Similarly, asking to have the case reviewed by a non-jewish admin, if one honestly believed that you were being discriminated against because you weren't Jewish, isn't racist either. It might even be downright appropriate. His other behaviour was not at issue here, and seems to have played an inappropriate role in the chronology of the indef block. Look, the guy doesn't appear to be the sharpest crayon in the box, and maybe wikipedia is better off without him. i'm simply concerned about the conduct of the blocking admin(s). Throwaway85 (talk) 07:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC) WP:NOT is policy and WP:POINT is a guideline. He's broken both of them, as I've explained above, and then iced the cake with some personal attacks. The prior block history means he doesn't need warnings or extra chances; he's used them up already. Jehochman Talk 07:19, 2 December 2009 (UTC) (edit conflict)Another problem I have with this is that the comment itself doesn't actually seem likely to offend anyone. It just doesn't make sense to anyone who knows anything about the Holocaust. He suggested sticking to pictures of Jews unless the Holocaust involved other races. Is that offensive? I mean I know it's stupid, but offensive? Is it really? Could someone explain to me why it would be? Equazcion (talk) 07:19, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) I concur. It's dumb and tinhatty, but I can't see that being offensive, unless those offended were a little too eager to read offense into things. Throwaway85 (talk) 07:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC) D4D stated baldly that Jehochman made a block not on the merits of the situation, but rather because he's a jew acting in defence of another jew. I despair for those who cannot see what is so utterly offensive in that. It's not "tinhatty". It's not "stupid". It's totally offensive and completely unacceptable. When viewed in the context of D4D's editing history it demonstrates that he should never be unblocked. Crafty (talk) 07:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC) See Throwaway's comment in response to Wehwalt above. The mere suggestion that one admin might be acting in defense of another admin for ethnic reasons isn't worthy of an indefinite block, though it isn't a smart thing to say either. We should also be also more inclined to allow leeway when it comes to someone's response to the frustration of a block. Also none of this changes the fact that the comment that sparked all of this wasn't actually offensive, and the initial block came simply because the user brought a complaint to ANI -- and one that had nothing to do with ethnicity. Equazcion (talk) 07:51, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) That's fair. And I'll note that accusations of ethnic conspiracies aren't uncommon (they are par for the course on most of the nationalist conflicts and the same goes for political accusations w/ american left/right politics disputes). But I'm not blocking him for the comment alone. I'm blocking him because I feel he has worn out his welcome. Protonk (talk) 08:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I can't seem to find WP:WORNOUTHISWELCOME, Protonk. Can you help?--Wehwalt (talk) 08:08, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Jehochman blocked today (2 December 2009) for 5 reasons. Let's look at each of them: this comment which was made on 30 November 2009. Was it really offensive? Foolish yes, but offensive? Regardless, do we usually block so much later for such a comment? "frivolous complaint against content opponent". Do we usually block for that reason, or doesn't that happen often enough that it does not warrant a block? "personal attacks in complaint ("an admin with a dubious history")" If an editor makes an allegation, particularly against an admin, do we usually block them or ask them to substantiate? Block log with blocks for point and disruptive editing...a fancy way of saying blocking policy allows a block if the conduct continues. And...where was the discussion for that? Was there even an RfC/U that some frequently encourage users to use in lieu of ANI and binding measures? "continuing to battle on this thread even after told no case". One user felt there was a need to remind/warn Slrubenstein, while another felt otherwise. Battling aside, how is it in any way reasonable to expect a filing party to agree with a user who disagrees with him, particularly when someone else felt some justification in the filing party's concern? Meanwhile, Jayron32 closed this making some correct statements (about using dispute resolution) and incorrect statements (those regarding Slrubenstein's sysop rights). Does this blocking rationale stand up to scrutiny? If it actually does, great. Personally, I'm inclined to think that more discussion prior to admin actions may have resulted in this being handled much more appropriately (and without the escalating drama). There may have been other reasons that resulted in the block, even an indef one that I'd have fully supported. However, as those reasons were material to this block, those reasons should've been stated in the rationale to begin with (if they existed at the time of blocking in the mind of the blocking admin). Personal assumptions do not override discussion. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I don't want to get too deep into it, since Jehochman and I are both ArbCom candidates, but there needs to be more emphasis on discussion rather than unilateral actions, and I wish Jehochman had waited. It is very possible that Wikipedia would be better off without D4D, I couldn't say. But "better off blocked" is not a reason to block. I suggest that D4D be unblocked, with a caution as to his language. I also suggest that Slrubenstein be cautioned that "trolling" is a word likely to be provocative.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Please comment on the following two edits. Are they helpful or unhelpful, given the backdrop of an editor who's been blocked repeatedly and recently for disruptive editing?[12] The way this case has been handled is strictly routine. Jehochman Talk 08:08, 2 December 2009 (UTC) This doesn't seem to be an image of Jews, as they are not circumcised.Perhaps, unless we want to expand the Holocaust to include non Jews, we should just stick to pictures of Jews for this article?. The image in question Hochman, I really question your blocking on behalf of another Jew in this case. Thank you. Jehochman Talk 08:08, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I agree that using the word "trolling" is not wise. It tends to make a situation worse rather than better. However, this error is quite mild compared to the provocations by Die4Dixie. Jehochman Talk 08:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC) And yet you blocked him for bringing the case here and persisting in it!--Wehwalt (talk) 08:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Correct. For the reasons stated above. Die4Dixie has a contribution history evidencing a particular point of view. His comment appears to have been flamebait. He hooked a fish and brought it here for frying. No, we don't allow that sort of game on Wikipedia, especially not by editors who already been warned and blocked at least twice for disruptive editing in the recent past. Jehochman Talk 08:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Unless the original comment can be shown to have been somehow offensive, which no one's explained yet, there's no reason to think he was baiting. The comment was just stupid -- not offensive. Equazcion (talk) 08:23, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) (edit conflict)Both of those comments have been addressed above. The "circumcised" comment, again, was stupid but not offensive, nor worthy of a block. And again, merely suggesting, in the frustrated aftermath of a block, that one admin was acting in defense of another admin for ethnic reasons, is also not worthy of a block, let alone an indef -- though it may still have been ill-advised. Equazcion (talk) 08:16, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) @Jehochman; decidedly unhelpful. I've seen D4D before; one of the other incidents, but I don't recall the details and do not believe I was in any way involved or even commented; but it was in this same vein. I have a question of my own: Is there anything good coming out of this user? Because if there's not, Jehochman and Protonk have this done right. Cheers, Jack Merridew 08:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I see plenty of constructive edits in his history; though even barring that, the "net positive/net negative" argument has never held much water when it comes to users. Equazcion (talk) 08:27, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) ┌─────────────────────────────────────┘ Was the following edit constructive? This users is pleased with the changes in the status of Juan Almeida. One down and several leftists to go! [13] I am no fan of communists, but grave dancing and using Wikipedia as a battleground is unacceptable. Jehochman Talk 08:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Not helpful, but also not worthy of blocking indefinitely (though maybe blocking temporarily following a warning, which I think is what happened). That wasn't a personal attack against another editor; just a case of bad taste, saying things out loud that most of us confine to our heads instead. There was a user a while ago who posted a box on his userpage that suggested all Americans should die. It sparked a lengthy controversy on whether or not the user should be forced to remove the box, but no mention of a block. There are plenty of uncouth editors that aren't indefinitely blocked for being so. It might be better to reconsider the actions that led to the block in this case rather than searching for reasons to rationalize it. Equazcion (talk) 08:45, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Thank you, Jonathan, *that* was the incident I recall this user from. We can haz rezolved boxen soon? Cheerz, Jack Merridew 08:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC) You seem to be suggesting blocking a user indefinitely for something they did two months ago, were already blocked temporarily for, and haven't repeated since. Of course I have to disagree with that. Equazcion (talk) 08:53, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Good block and I support the indef as well. Although I'm sure it'll be lifted in a week. That's all indeffed seems to mean most of the time. Heironymous Rowe (talk) 08:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Looking at the dialogue on Holocaust, D4D's responses to Slrubenstein were completely inappropriate. Here is the interchange about the non-free image File:Holocaust123.JPG just so that editors can get a little sense of perspective. D4D was quite clearly trying to WP:BAIT Slrubenstein. Whatever William S.Saturn may say in D4D's defense, D4D's "objective editing behaviour" is reminiscent of the kind of discussions that got Fourdee (talk · contribs) permabanned by Jimbo (he suggested that Jewish historians were incapable of evaluating the holocaust). This doesn't seem to be an image of Jews, as they are not circumcised.Perhaps, unless we want to expand the Holocaust to include non Jews, we should just stick to pictures of Jews for this article? Die4Dixie (talk) 17:36, 30 November 2009 (UTC) Excuse me, but what is the point of your comment, unless you are trolling? (1) which people are not circumcized? (2) this article does as you must know include the suffering of non-Jews. Please explain. Slrubenstein Talk 19:01, 30 November 2009 (UTC) Excuse me, but your comments were not civil, were the opposite of WP:AGF, and were definately uncalled for and not appreciated. If you examine the genitalia carefully, it will be self evident the corpse to which I refer. The introduction makes reference to the exclusivity in certain circles to the term. If you aren´t interested in my input, it is a big project and plenty of communist propoganda for me to rectify elsewhere. I really don´t have much more time for attitude and maudlin sensibilities.--Die4Dixie (talk) 04:21, 1 December 2009 (UTC) Excuse me, your saying that victims of the Holocaust are not Jewish, and making a tendentious comment about circumcision, are not civil, and are the opposite of good faith. I am sorry you cannot appreciate it. Obviously you are not going to answer my question, about which individuals specifically are not circumcised, because you cannot. Proof enough of your bad faith. Slrubenstein Talk 17:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC) Excuse me. The dark corpse in the bottom half of the picture. Follow the white hand that is at approximately 6 o´clock along the darker cadaver that points towrds two o´clock. Follow it until you reach the external gentile genitalia. Use the larger picture that you can reach by clicking on the image.--Die4Dixie (talk) 05:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Mathsci (talk) 08:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I haven't seen anyone point out that the lead for the article they are discussing excludes nonjews from the victimes of the holocaust, pretty much. Given this, it does seem that Die4Dixie's comments make sense in a race/religious neutral context. He was observing that the photograph doesn't depict what the article is discussing. The admin then informs him that the holocaust includes nonjews (something I thought as well) however this seems to contradict with the main definition of such in the article's lead. I agree the admin should be warned for civility, and I think the ban was excessive. It seems people are reaching to show incitement, where a perfectly rational explanation seems plain. The picture shows something that appears inconsistant with the subject. In any case, the ban now given seems grossly excessive when viewed in light of bans given to vandals and obviously bad faith editors who act with plain malice, and I question seriously whether any disciplinary action was appropriate at all.--Δζ (talk) 12:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC) So, a user known for being inflammatory makes his own interpretation of a small portion of a photo and posts a comment of poor nature... and then defends it to the point of bringing it to ANI... and we're still debating this? It was a masterful troll that has ANI in a tizzy and I see no reason to unblock. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 17:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Well I haven't seen how the prior comments establish these as violating any of the rules. Certainly he could have malicious intent and he could be breaking the rules, but I don't think that's been demonstrated. My understanding is that anyone's allowed to question the content. Maybe he's a holocaust denier (which I would hope isn't against the rules here, at least not for reasons of offending people) or something, but that's not obvious from the post. I fail to see how making a comment, even if irrelevant as you contend, questioning a photo is deserving of this type of ban.--Δζ (talk) 17:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC) [edit] Looking forward I've advised Die4Dixie that they need to ponder what's happened here.[14] After a week if they post a convincing unblock request, they might get another chance. They need to demonstrate an understanding of what Wikipedia is for, and that they recognize what mistakes they made. Those apologizing for Die4Dixie are doing the user no favors. Die4Dixie needs to understand the problems and correct them. Jehochman Talk 08:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC) You're skipping some steps here. Per the discussion above, it doesn't seem all that clear what the user did "wrong", or at least what they did that was worthy of a block. So far, he said something stupid at Talk:The Holocaust, which it has been suggested was a baiting attempt, though no one has been able to explain how it could be seen as such. He then responded to one admin defending another by suggesting they were doing so due to common ethnicity, which while an ill-advised thing to say, also isn't worthy of a block. Perhaps you could respond to the challenges in the above discussion rather than skipping to your own conclusion? Equazcion (talk) 08:59, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Die4Dixie explicitly stated that an image by the official Jewish memorial Yad Vashem on the victims of the Holocaust does not represent Jewish people. Basically, he's restating arguments on holocaust denial on Talk:Holocaust. The sole aim of that comment is to inflame, as he well knows how sensitive the issue is. Now tell me, how is that not baiting? Then, when he's blocked, he automatically assumes the blocking administrator is Jewish without any prior evidence. The block is deserved. —Dark 09:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC) It was blatant baiting. If it wasn't for the user's history (Allende was "congressionally appointed" not "democratically elected", Pinochet wasn't a fascist, anti-semitism includes hate against Arabs, ...) I would be prepared to assume good faith: that it was unintentional blatant baiting. But not in the case of what seems to be a highly intelligent extremely right-wing user. If you, Equazcion, don't see what's wrong about telling editors at Talk:Holocaust (who obviously include relatives of those who survived or died in the Holocaust) to magnify the photo of a stack of dead bodies and examine their penises to see if they are circumcised (as if that was even relevant – people were killed for their descent, not their religion), then I don't know how to help you. The overall attitude shown by Die4Dixie in that thread was also clearly that of a Holocaust denier. I am surprised that the reactions were so relatively cool. Hans Adler 09:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC) @Dark: I now see where you're coming from. However it seems like a jump contrary to AGF to assume holocaust denial based on the statement. It could be as you claim (and thank you for being the first to finally step forward and explain this), but still, it could as easily be ignorance. Unless there's prior evidence of an antisemitic editing slant, I don't feel this warrants assuming the worst, yet. @Hans: I indeed dont see what's wrong with telling editors at Talk:Holocaust to magnify a photo of dead bodies in order to investigate a claim of inaccuracy. If the editors participating at Talk:Holocaust are emotinally involved to the point that they can't handle objective scrutiny of the subject without becoming offended, they might want to consider editing elsewhere -- though I doubt that's actually the case, and rather seems a stretch. Equazcion (talk) 09:45, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) User:Equazcion should reacquaint himself a.s.a.p. with the wikipedia guideline WP:OR. In this case, rather than making comments on and analysis of an image like this (and continuing for example with the completely incorrect assumption that only circumcised people could be classified as Jews by the Third Reich), the only relevant thing here is to look at the sourcing for the image on the original site. That is how wikipedia is edited. Considering the source (Yad Vashem), I don't quite understand what could have prompted Equaczion to write justifying such disruptive editing behaviour. Mathsci (talk) 11:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC) OR is a content guideline and has nothing to do with the theories wikipedians may construct about motivation or anything else. What should be said is that the more convoluted and bizarre the defense of trolling on Talk:Holocaust gets, the less likely outside observers are to believe it. Protonk (talk) 11:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC) That had nothing to do with any sort of objective scrutiny. Remember what the claim was: One of the dead men on the photo wasn't circumcised. So what? I am not aware that the Nazis routinely circumcised men before (or after) killing them as Jews. Therefore this doesn't even prove that this one man wasn't killed for being Jewish (whether he considered himself that or not). Let alone all the others. And it's not even relevant unless you argue from a Holocaust denial POV. This was clearly meant to function [the same way as] telling someone that they would make a nice lampshade – only calculated to stay just below the threshold where it becomes actionable. Well, it was a miscalculation. Hans Adler 09:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC) [grammar corrected 11:34, 2 December 2009 (UTC)] It's not even relevant from a Holocaust denial POV. (correction -- it could be, but...) The guy could just be a moron who doesn't know anything about the Holocaust, which makes this case less "clear". If there were a demonstrated history of antisemitic editing I'd be more inclined to waive AGF, but I see no reason to do that yet. Why are we assuming the worst of this thus-far isolated incident? Equazcion (talk) 10:07, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) "Unless there's prior evidence of an antisemitic editing slant, I don't feel this warrants assuming the worst, yet." Apart from the username, an editor whose fourth edit is to defend the Stormfront website[15] ceratinly raises red flags wrt an "antisemitic slant". Changing "Blood libels are false accusations that Jews use human blood in certain aspects of their religious rituals." to "Blood libels are false[citation needed] accusations that Jews use human blood in certain aspects of their religious rituals."[16] may be an indication as well. Fram (talk) 10:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Suppose we twist AGF to assume "This doesn't seem to be an image of Jews, as they are not circumcised" in regard to this image was not either trolling or denialism. Fine, but then Die4Dixie files a pointless complaint here; that is definitely outside AGF and the five reasons explained above show that the initial one-week block was reasonable. The subsequent discussion at Die4Dixie's talk shows that future contributions from this user are not going to help the encyclopedia. Johnuniq (talk) 10:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC) OVer a year back, William S. Saturn (under his now-blocked sock name User:Uga Man [17]), was here defending another Southern editor User:God Save the South who was blocked for very much similar editing to Die4Dixie. [18]. Just thought I'd mention it, like. Black Kite 10:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I see editors above who have vehemently prosecuted suspected anti-semitic editors before too. If there's a conclusion to be drawn from the former, perhaps there is one to be drawn from the latter as well. In response to Mathsci further up, violation of OR or the like is not in dispute. You don't get blocked for discussing a perceived problem with an article that might stem from a purely OR concern. This is about an "intentional baiting". Regarding the blood libel, speaking from a purely objective standpoint, the blanket statement that blood libel claims are "false" seems rather unprovable, and again this is from a purely objective standpoint, the word "false" should probably be removed. It's enough to say that it's an "accusation" without making baseless claims about how true they are. Changing the statement as D4D did again might be evidence of something larger, but it also might not, as I can see a legitimate reason for it. If there were a statement in an article that no cow ever stepped on a land mine, that would similarly be rather unprovable and I don't think anyone would be complaining if it were altered or marked with CN. That said I can see the tendency to suspect something else by connecting that edit with this incident, but still, there's enough doubt to warrant AGF for now. In response to Johnuniq, filing a complaint that others see as being pointless is not generally something people get blocked for, and some editors have expressed the opinion that it was warranted. As for statements following the block, I feel like they're being used as an excuse in the case, when in most other cases we don't normally extend blocks based on users' reactions; rather we usually grant leeway for the understandable frustration users feel when blocked. I'm also not even of the opinion that the user's follow-up statements were all that terrible. Suspecting impropriety based on common ethnicity sounds bad, but there aren't really any grounds to say it couldn't possibly be a valid concern -- not that I'm saying it was; just that it's not an entirely unthinkable thing to worry about when an administrative action has been taken against you. Equazcion (talk) 11:56, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Equazcion, it's extremely hard to see this as anything other than baiting and deliberate disruption. I tried to find the original source for the image with its accompanying information. However, there are too many images of this kind to sort through in the photographic archives at Yad Vashem. Mathsci (talk) 12:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Equazcion, consider D4D's request - that a bunch of amateur writers, and that's really what we are, armchair quarterback 65 years of historians, archivists, and researchers; that we take a digitized image thoroughly out of the context of all that documentation and scholarship; that we spend a great deal of time staring at a dead man's limp dick, and make a determination of our own over that of the Reliable Sources to agree withD4D that at least one cock in the pile is NOT circumcised; and that we use that conclusion, if we can ignore WP:RS, and WP:OR, and WP:SYNTH, to determine that because one prick might not be clipped, then ALL Those bodies are non-Jews, and therefore, by extension, the image should be removed. If we indulged him on all this, and tried to think as he does, we would them be asked, no doubt, to prove the bodies are from the WW2 era at all. One - defending the presence of a strongly emotional image on the page is quite different than insisting others stare at it ad nauseum to try to 'debunk' it, Two - this editor has a history, amply demonstrated above, of looking to provoke others, and by your own admission, it's stupid set of things to say. Stupid comments plus a history of calculated 'stupid things' is trolling. Your defense seems to rely, like D4D's comment, on examining one dick out of context to all the things around it. Sure, one comment MAY just be stupid, like one dick MAY be uncircumcised, but in context, one comment may just be the latest bit of trolling, like one dick, looked at for even a moment, shows that it's clearly circumcised. Further, consider it this way. EVEN if that first block, for saying things designed to be BAIT for the Jewish editors, was questionable, the fact that the blocked editor's reply is to immediately imply that Jews all act to protect each other (the popular Sekrit Joozish Conshpeerasy) demonstrates that in this case, scratch the surface of a 'stupid edit', find the race-baiting editor beneath it. It's been said here that D4D is good at making edits that stay just shy of the threshold of a block. Even if true, it appears he miscalculated, as was also said above, and then showed his hand ... flat, face down, at the end of an extended upward arm. And he got blocked for it. Good block -Encouraging vilations of RS, OR, SYNTH through BAITing others? please. ThuranX (talk) 12:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Equazon - have you read the comments D4D made? It's possible to ask questions about an image that includes (possibly) an uncircumcised male on the talk page of a holocaust article without doing so in a manner that you *know* is going to annoy the fuck out of many people. D4D's ignorance is not the problem. D4D's possible OR is not the problem. D4D's provocative manner in asking the questions is. That, combined with a the username, and with other edits, shows that the editor is incapable of editing for the enemy, will push a certain pov, and will do so provocatively. The username combined with some of the edits is enough for an indef block. He was allowed to keep the username so long as he did not engage in this type of editing. He failed that test, and failed it hard. NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 13:04, 2 December 2009 (UTC) @Thuranx: If the history of trolling is as unquestionable as you imply, then maybe you're right; I just haven't seen such a history demonstrated here. Otherwise, as you say, the comment could just have been stupid. Also, the block wasn't actually for the supposed baiting, but for bringing a so-called frivolous complaint to ANI -- one which, as was also said above by multiple editors, may have had some basis. Disregarding a supposed history of trolling that, if it exists, Slrubenstien probably wasn't aware of or acting on, personally I think Slrubenstein's reaction was not ideal; though still not worthy of an ANI report, but also not entirely un-worthy of some complaint by an editor who might not have known better the threshold for which concerns belong at ANI -- at least not to the point of blocking him for making it. @NotAnIP: He might not have *known* it was going to annoy the fuck out of people. As I said, it could simply have been a stupid, ill-thought-out remark (or the user could be a dimwit to begin with). You're assuming he knew that the statement would be taken as provocative, but I'm not. As for the username, I'm not entirely sure why that should automatically be counted as evidence of antisemitism, if that's what's being implied. Equazcion (talk) 13:09, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Have you read his comments at the talk page? They're *clearly*, and I cannot understand how anyone can think otherwise, baiting. There are ways to ask questions about what appears to be an uncircumcised male in a picture of what's supposed to be all Jewish people in an article about the Holocaust (when you're confused about the use of Holocaust to refer to the death of Jews but not homosexuals or Gypsies) - but D4D's questions were absolutely not the way to do it. So, so far I'm accusing D4D of blatant trolling. If you were to say that some editors are being too quick to accuse D4D of anti-semitism; well, I might agree, but he's clearly using that as a button to push to annoy people. And about the username: Die4Dixie was reported at UAA. People were worried that a username like that would be pushing a racist POV. Others asked for AGF. D4D has shown that AGF was optimistic. NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 18:19, 2 December 2009 (UTC) In my unsolicited opinion, this whole thing is pretty absurd. The comment on his user page is not per se antisemetic, and I see no reason to stretch to reach that result. It was insensitive, but so what? He is asking for someone that doesn't have an ethnic/religious association with the claimed offensive actions to decide on the disciplinary action. He didn't claim a conspiracy or any of the other nonsense, and certainly didn't slur folks. Good lord. Maybe he's a raging bigot, but it ain't evidenct from this stuff. Finally, the article lead for the holocaust pretty much excludes nonjews from the definition thereof, and the talk page observation was therefore quite relevant: the pic was unrelated (allegedly) to the subject. The admin then claims, contrary to the lead, that the holocaust includes nonjews (something I thought as well) with no explanation for how he squares that with the article's lead's proclaimed scope. Seems to me that people are looking at insensitive comments and straining to see malice where it isn't plain on its face. I hate to be one of those people (seriously, I really do) but this looks like political correctness gone wild (and usually I'm criticising those who make such allegations, yeesh).--Δζ (talk) 12:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Please go read the lede of that article, all the other groups are prominently mentioned in the second paragraph of the lede. Your comment is as disingenuous as his. ThuranX (talk) 13:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC) This comment again assumes bad faith. Δζ simply made a mistake, or at least that's what you should be assuming; yet you're calling him disingenuous. Furthermore this may have been the same mistake D4D made. You could assume they're both being disingenuous... we could assume intentional misdeeds as opposed to mistakes across the board in all cases... but that's not our policy. Equazcion (talk) 13:20, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) I understand the second paragraph mentions other groups, but the first one seems to advance the "jews only" view as the more prominent and general use of the term. In any case, how am I disingenuous? I can only interpret that one way, which is a pretty ridiculous assumption on your part. Should I trot out my jew street cred? Mention all the unverifiable friends/survivors I know? Not everyone who has a different opinion or makes an understandable mistake (as Equazcion observes) is doing so out of malice. I feel like I'm being baited into condemning views nobody has any business assuming of me in the first place. Chill out.--Δζ (talk) 13:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC) (ec) Equazcion, are you reading the diffs carefully? D4D requested a citation two years ago for the edit: "Blood libels are false[citation needed] accusations that Jews use human blood in certain aspects of their religious rituals," [19] which means he thinks Jews might use human blood. Now he's making comments about Holocaust victims not being circumcised (and therefore what?), and complaining because he is blocked by an admin who he thinks is Jewish. I'm not seeing a reasonable doubt here. SlimVirgin 13:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Already responded to this. See my response to Black Kite above for my thoughts on that edit. Equazcion (talk) 13:38, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Endorse block. The history of events that led to the block is not a monument of due process, but the end result appears okay to me given D4D's long term edit history; cleary he isn't here to improve Wikipedia. Pcap ping 13:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Endorse a block, but the trigger finger may have gone a bit too quickly towards an indef. Let the dust settle a bit and see where this user's head is at in a week or two, where an unblock request can be more thoughtfully considered and less emotionally reacted to. Tarc (talk) 13:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I agree with the block. Whether this user is simply ignorant about the Holocaust or consciously trolling, he's not helping to improve Wikipedia. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC) BTW, I'm curious, it seems some supported these actions because of antisemitism (or maybe they were just outraged by it). Is this against the rules per se, or only trolling? I'm just curious if viewpoints of certain types are not allowed to be had by editors. I'm not asking if wikipedia may be used as a platform for delivering those viewpoints or debating them, but whether if viewpoints are discovered of an editor, do they ever run afoul of policy by that fact alone, or by them having had them? From my understanding, antisemitism alone doesn't violate any existing policy, though it may be relevant to interpreting comments like those at issue here.--Δζ (talk) 15:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC) As far as I know you are allowed to support "Nuking the gay whales for Jesus" as long as you do not edit that POV into articles or intentionally antagonize other editors with it. DSRH |talk 21:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I support the indef block. Anyone who posts such things does not belong on this project. Crum375 (talk) 15:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC) [edit] Die4Dixie Unblocked, Community Ban Proposed The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows. After roughly a day of discussion, there is broad consensus for the proposed community ban of Die4Dixie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) for repeatedly and persistenly violating our norms of civil interaction, notably by conduct widely perceived as racist and/or trolling. Accordingly, Die4Dixie is community-banned, and I am blocking his account. Wehwalt is reminded not to perform unblocks without discussion except in the "cases of unambiguous error" mentioned in WP:BP#Block reviews.  Sandstein  13:58, 3 December 2009 (UTC) I've unblocked, based on the discussion. We must only block when an editor is in clear violation. Jehochman's block, never mind the post hoc statements, was for bringing this matter here, persisting in it, and having a previous block log. The upgrade for indefinite, for asking a non-Jewish admin to look at it, was inappropriate. Incidentally, I am Jewish, and if that causes Die4Dixie to roll in anguish at having his editing privileges restored by such, good. I will leave an appropriate caution on the talk pages of both Die4Dixie and Slrubenstein.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Wow, Wehwalt. There is no consensus to unblock. Jehochman Talk 15:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC) There was no consensus to undo the block, Wehwalt; quite the reverse. SlimVirgin 15:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Wehwalt has unilaterally unblocked Die4Dixie. I request a community sanction: Die4Dixie is community banned. Regrettably this is necessary. We cannot have admins supplanting consensus with their own peculiar views. Jehochman Talk 15:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Huh? If anything, what we cannot have is admins who provide clumsy rationales for their actions and expect them to stick. An unblock request was posted; any admin reviewing it gets to decide, unless it was a formal community sanction (which this was not). There's no point in complaining on that point. However, you are welcome to start a formal discussion for community sanction/ban at the appropriate venue (particularly in an appropriately named section). Though, I thought you were complaining last time a community sanction discussion happened at ANI.... Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Support community ban. Crum375 (talk) 15:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Support community ban per repeated trolling. Hipocrite (talk) 15:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Support community ban per my explanations above. Hans Adler 15:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Procedural oppose. I'm sorry, but inflating this incident as if it rises to that level is not good enough [when others have received not even a warning for similar conduct in other disputes]. If there is another more compelling reason for this proposal, which is what the above supports seem to allude to, no RfC/U or evidence trail has been presented. If this user should be community banned, it should not be difficult to present the trail of misconduct to justify the ban. I'll make a view on the merits of this upon that happening. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC) A better evidence trail exists now so I cannot oppose on these grounds, if any. The more general point I've raised here (but more explicitly in the a later subsection) really does need to be addressed by the community though. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:02, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Support lengthening the block for Dixie's inappropriate comments that violated Wikipedia:Assume good faith. Dixie's comments assumed (possible) bias on the part of a (possibly) Jewish administrator, without substantial evidence--and Wikipedians should be judged based on decisions, not ethnicity. Oppose making the block indefinite. The decision to up the block to indefinite seemed too abrupt, and the difference between a week-long block and an indefinite block is too great. --AFriedman (talk) 15:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Support block/ban, bad unblock. Whether D4D is an antisemitic asshole or just a moron (as per User: Equazcion's suggestion, although I'd like to add that these are in not way disjoint categories), he or she is unlikely to help building an encyclopedia. See also [20] and the rest of his history. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I obviously oppose a ban. I've been looking through this user's contrib list, and found a remarkable lack of edits to Judaism-related articles for an editor who's being accused of antisemitism. Aside from the blood libel edits nearly 2 years ago (which I've brought evidence to support their being legitimate), and some subsequent edits to the same article, there isn't much else to support this claim. This editor's supposed long history of trolling is also rather unsupported. People seem to be flying off the handle when it comes to edits that might be construed as antisemitic, when if the same sort of edits occurred regarding other subjects, they'd not be taken this way. And I'm Jewish, in case that should matter, but it really shouldn't. I'm concerned, among other reasons, that being oversensitive about this only trivializes other cases where there may be actual cause for concern. Equazcion (talk) 16:02, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Oppose as well. If you want a ban, take a deep breath, and then go do a RFC/U. At the present time, you have a very result oriented appearance, which isn't want this is all about. Cancel the order to the stick factory, don't put any stress on that dead horse, then go think about it for a bit.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I think we need to draw a line that attacks based on an editor's perceived race, ethnicity, religion, or sexuality are very seriously forbidden, just like making legal threats. When somebody makes such an attack, they should be blocked indefinitely until they retract the offensive remark. At any reasonable non-profit organization, volunteers and employees are expected to uphold such minimal standards of interpersonal conduct. Wikipedia should do the same. Jehochman Talk 16:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I think that is an excellent idea. Let's get that put into policy, and if D4D violates it, we will block him! But he can't be blocked for an unstated idea of yours ...--Wehwalt (talk) 16:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)\ I cannot, in good conscience, support that idea simply because of the enormous subjectivity that would need to be applied to every statement a person made. If I were a member of the Flat Earth Society and you tried to tag that article as pseudo-science, I could call for your indef block for being offensive to me and my views. does that sound even remotely logical? I hope not. Padillah (talk) 19:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Support for community ban; D4D needs to go. I also want to express my profound disappointment with admins and long-time editors who seem to believe that this kind of nonsense is in any way acceptable. In the words of one of WP's greatest admins: "AGF is not a suicide pact". I wouldn't normally quote Machiavelli either, but in this case it seems that the ends do indeed justify the means; It's more important to quickly and efficiently remove a dedicated troll than it is to follow the exact letter of policy. Kudos to Jehochman for taking proper action. Doc Tropics 16:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC) We can add it to written policy right now, if it is not there already. We have traditionally indef blocked accounts that cross that line. I've left a message on your talk page suggesting an alternative resolution for this thread. See what you think. Jehochman Talk 16:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I don't have a problem with asking D4D to strike specific statements, and if he refuses to do so, jointly starting an RfC. It may take several days for me to write one up, though, busy busy, Jehochman, I know it is the same with you.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC) (edit conflict)Okay, I ask the community to suspend this proceeding and place an archive box around it. Wehwalt and I will deal with Die4Dixie and make sure things are fixed up, or else we will initiate an RfC that may result in a community ban. Jehochman Talk 16:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Jehochman, I really like your idea. These types of comments are already covered on the policy page for Wikipedia:No personal attacks, sort of--"Using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views [is a personal attack]...Speculating on the real life identity of another editor may constitute outing, which is a serious offense." Perhaps we could make it clearer, in "No personal attacks," that this is a serious offense? --AFriedman (talk) 16:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I also really like this idea. It would go a long way in resolving some disputes involving problem-editors a lot more quickly and efficiently. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Gladly something useful came of this discussion. Let's go to the policy pages and improve them. Jehochman Talk 16:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC) (edit conflict) Frankly I'm against that change as it's meant to apply to situations like this. Equally as frankly, and it seems at the risk of being labeled a bigot myself, were I a gentile, being reprimanded and then blocked by two people in power who were Jewish, for my supposed antisemitic remark, I would probably feel compelled to call attention to that fact as well, un-PC as it would be taken. Also frankly, and here's where it gets real touchy, but I'm going to say it anyway, I'd suggest that Jewish administrators think about recusing themselves in such situations, just as bakers should recuse themselves from situations involving editors insulting the baking industry... and so forth. I'm not sure why there should be a difference in an ethnic situation; and really, the more potential for personal offense exists, the more careful we should be in avoiding the appearance of potential impropriety. Anyway, any policy changes should probably not be discussed here. Equazcion (talk) 16:40, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Based on three requests from other people at Wikipedia: [21], I have reopened this thread. Please continue to spend more time on this. Thank you. --Jayron32 17:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I support a community ban as well. This was a really terrible unblock. AniMate 17:48, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Ugh. Strong support, per Durova. AniMate 05:57, 3 December 2009 (UTC) By that logic, Equaczion, us white folks should recuse ourselves on any dispute involving editors who insult a white person. Do you see the massive flaw in your logic here? — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 17:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC) See User talk:Stephan Schulz#ANI close, where I've answered that point. Equazcion (talk) 18:01, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Support community ban Editors examining genitalia to determine race and ethnicity smacks of something that is really hard to AGF. We're better off without that sort of thing. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 17:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Note - Jayron reopened this thread mistakenly, in response to concerns regarding his original close located way up this thread. It's already been agreed upon by the blocking admin and the unblocking admin that his matter be handled outside ANI. Equazcion (talk) 18:04, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) note: I've re-closed this per Jayron's talk page. Equazcion (talk) 18:08, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) So, because Jehochman and Wehwalt have decided to file an RfC we are no longer able to discuss a community ban? Sorry, but I was not aware that those two represent the community in totality. AniMate 18:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC) They are the blocking admin and the unblocking admin. They agreed to offer the user an ultimatum, and if he doesn't accept, to open an RFC/U where a community ban would be discussed, and you'll be welcome to comment. Equazcion (talk) 18:20, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Right. My unblock related to the process that was undertaken, that could have been done better. We are now addressing D4D's actual conduct, giving him a chance to back off and improve things, and if that fails, the community will make a decision on whether he is welcome at Wikipedia. I suspect I know how that will end.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Sorry for thinking community bans should be decided based on community input and not just the whims of the blocking and unblocking admins. AniMate 18:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Well, gee, go start your own RfC then. But I think when the two admins closest to the picture are waiting for a response from the editor in question, I think people will wait on that. There is no huge hurry, if D4D starts editing again, and doesn't respond to me, or if he responds negatively, we know what to do, and if he doesn't resume editing it is a moot point.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC) You're so close to the picture you forgot to inform the blocking admin that you reversed his block. Considering Protonk's involvement I think it fair that he be allowed to weigh in here. AniMate 18:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I, as an uninvolved editor, am uncollapsing the discussion. I would recommend that future commentors take into account the discussion between Jehochman and Wehwalt (link ?), but it was inappropriate for an editor participating in the discussion (User:Equazcion) to short-circuit and collapse a ban discussion that they opposed. Abecedare (talk) 18:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I wasn't the one who collapsed it originally. I only re-collapsed it following Jayorn's mistaken reopen. See here. Equazcion (talk) 18:43, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Support the community ban. D4D is obviously a racist troll and a hypocrite with no good intentions on WP. --Mista-X (talk) 19:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Support a ban, obviously. Protonk (talk) 19:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Discussion between Jehochman and me can be found here.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:45, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Anyone want to re-collapse this mess again, since my doing so is clearly an attempt to short-circuit a ban discussion that I oppose? Equazcion (talk) 18:47, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Support a community ban. Crafty (talk) 19:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Support @Kate (talk) 19:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Support with comments. Excusing an editor for "venting" is a rather bad proposition in any situation. More so when it carries overtones of bigotry. Durova371 20:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Changing to strong support per this.[22] Durova371 02:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Support a community ban for Die4Dixie. Since enough people have commented in this discussion that it can no longer be seen as being between the blocking and unblock admins, their agreement to continue in another forum has no bearing on whether this thread proceeds to a community ban consensus. Nathan T 20:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I agree with Nathan. Jehochman and my agreement has been overtaken by events. I will take no position on the community ban. Howver, I would ask that participants check WP:BAN and make sure that Die4Dixie is notified and that the process go the required amount of time before an uninvolved admin closes the matter.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Per Wehwalt, except my original procedural oppose still stands - no view on merits. Ncmvocalist (talk) 20:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)procedural oppose struck. Oppose community ban, because he helps make articles better (eventually), but support long-term block of 6 months to 1 year for racist remarks. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:45, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Support community ban for Die4Dixie. I have long admired this editor's ability to capitalize on disagreements between admins and to thereby emerge unscathed from contretemps that would have quickly done in lesser rhetoricians. However, his/her entertainment value has been depleted. — goethean ॐ 21:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Oppose - this has been blown way out of proportion. This is a good example of making a mountain out of a mole hill. --William S. Saturn (talk) 21:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Oppose if by "community ban" we mean an indefinite involuntary bye-bye from the project. Surely there is a more constructive, targeted approach, if required. I've known D4D as an editor for quite a while and initially tangled with him, but personally I've found that some goodwill and patience pays off. He's here in good faith and does make sincere, positive contributions to the encyclopedia. He is also passionate in certain beliefs about politics and race, from a conservative point of view (forgive me if I don't quite have it right, but the specifics aren't the issue here) and has tended to blow off steam if challenged. But if approached calmly he usually knows when he's gone too far, and backs down from the objectionable behavior. I don't see the holocaust / circumcision comments as necessarily antisemitic, at least not in intent. Assuming good faith rather than assuming trolling, these are legitimate questions: (1) should our conception of the genocide in the holocaust be limited primarily to Jews (and perhaps gypsies and gay and disabled people) or should we also include other victims such as resistance fighters, Russian civilians, etc., (2) were most Jewish victims of the holocaust indeed circumcised - an uncomfortable but possibly legitimate question, and (3) was that particular photograph authentic - it is, but D4D may have simply been asking an honest question about that. I'm not saying he should have posted such an uncomfortable question in such a sensitive place, just that doing so may have been innocent or simply insensitive rather than out-and-out racist. I think a factual explanation of the truth of the matter, coupled with a calm request to please respect people's sensitivities over discussing the most morbid details of the holocaust, would settle this with a lot less fuss and loss to the project as tossing yet another editor over the side of the boat. If we think the long-term incivility has gone too far then some kind of civility parole or mentorship would be a lot more helpful. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Per LHvU's comment below, is there a diff or link to the "ongoing campaign" - I know of the other two but have not noticed that, and it would be troubling. If there is to be a ban, why not limit it to the problem areas of race and politics? Both articles of the same, and any derogatory comments about the same. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Support community ban My recollections of past Noticeboard discussions re Die4Dixie; Username concerns - it was decided that a name evidencing an apparent strong allegiance to American Confederate sentiment was not inappropriate (or simply misunderstood, I cannot recall, as a mistaken perception). Flagrant celebration of death of Communist leader/icon/whatever, with commentary that inferred that liberals and socialists were the kin of such people and whose demise should likewise be celebrated. Ongoing campaign regarding Jews and the Holocaust, including suggestions that denialist claims should be included per WP:DUE or that general claims upon figures of Jewish deaths should be cited. I cannot recall specific references to either homosexuals or Catholics, but surely this would be a matter of time for such a stereotypical Southern States bigot? Further, while there is a (good) practice of allowing individuals to "let off steam" immediately post block - vis a vis comments regarding the blocking admin or those held responsible for producing the block - I am extremely concerned that there was an instant accusation of Jewish conspiracy. In vino veritus... anyone know the Latin for "anger"? LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Support community ban. Wehwalt's unilateral unblock against consensus has unfortunately made me change my voting in the ArbCom election: what he has written here seems extraordinarily clueless. Mathsci (talk) 23:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Support community ban and trout, at the least, Wehwalt for his/her unilateral unblock against consensus: I, too, am going to re-check my vote. The obvious trolling by Die4Dixie was bad enough, but the knee-jerk support for him has gone far past "reasonable doubt" into WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT excuse-making territory. --Calton | Talk 23:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Support community ban. Examining genitalia of Holocaust victims to determine whether they're Jews, complaining about being blocked by an admin he perceives as Jewish, and earlier in his history requesting a source to support that Jews don't use human blood in religious rituals. [23] There's no benefit to the project in harboring this kind of attitude. SlimVirgin 00:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Multiple explanations have been provided for the blood libel edit (mine originally, and finally D4D's recently), but you still point to it unilaterally. I can do that too, ignore further explanation in favor of continuing to express my initial disgust at something, but while that's easier it also hampers progress in any situation. As for the genitalia, I don't see what's so terrible about pointing out genitalia in a photo, even one as gruesome as this, in order to voice factual concerns. I might've done the same thing, had I the misconception about the article D4D did. Granted I would've approached the subject more delicately than D4D did -- if he had, we might not be here -- but frankly he doesn't seem to possess the language skills for it. Should that mean he's condemned? There's plenty of benefit to the project, because for two years the user made unproblematic edits. You're just focusing on two isolated incidents that occurred 2 years apart. Equazcion (talk) 08:56, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC) Wehwalt's unblock did not follow consensus in any form whatsoever. I support the community ban on the basis of D4D's destructive behavior, and his failure to understand what is wrong with his actions. —Dark 05:51, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Support. -FASTILY (TALK) 07:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Support community ban.   Will Beback  talk  08:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Oppose, That is, if I can do so.--Die4Dixie (talk) 08:44, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Support community ban.Synchronism (talk) 08:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Support This editor does not appear to appreciative neutrality in writing articles and is a distraction to other editors. The Four Deuces (talk) 09:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Oppose The comments were not per se antisemitic or violative of wikipedia rules that would deserve a ban. This is essentially people presuming a motive where none is apparent, and I feel that is insufficient justification. Questions about the content of a picture are not deserving of a ban, no matter what views of the editor may be plausibly inferred. Wikipedia is not censored as to viewpoints, and a presumably good faith comment on a talk page about a picture where no personal attack was made is not grounds for a ban.--Δζ (talk) 09:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Support community ban. After everything that has happened, posting this ("First I ran a search for Hochman using his first name that he gives here on Wikipedia. The article that pops up is about bull riding and has plenty of in-group humor of the "Nice Jewish Boy" type...") and similar shows that the editor is not going to be an asset to the encyclopedia. Johnuniq (talk) 09:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Ummm. That was supposed to be where we could discuss that. I´m not following your logical leap from A to B. My explaining to the offended editor how I arrived there is more evidence of why I should be banned? Oy Vey(smacks head). A Jewish publication specifically mentioned "Nice Jewish Boy" and bull riding. here, you read it and see if I mischaracterized it: http://www.jewishmag.com/102mag/bullrider/bullrider.htm--Die4Dixie (talk) 09:52, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Oppose community ban. We are all of us (in part) products of our environments, and I am too well aware of what sort of material circulates in the American South; should Southerners in general be banned from Wikipedia because so many have been raised in a background distrustful of Jews? D4D, believe it or not, seems to have managed to emerge affected, but relatively mildly and reasonably (by comparison), by that background. This progress, even though incomplete, should be taken into consideration. The blocks of him, on the other hand, quickly bypassed any other form of dispute resolution, and may easily have served to only harden his beliefs about bigotry against him. Perhaps rage was not helpful here. — Sizzle Flambé (☎/✍) 09:45, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Support — per Jehochman; per Durova, too, whose talk page I just looked at. We could have had closure yesterday. Cement this, please. The piece that utterly convinced me was the urging to scrutinize the image for details of the genitals of gruesome corpses. *That's* trolling 101. Sincerely, Jack Merridew 10:12, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Support - this has gone on long enough. I wasn't going to comment but D4D's responses have convinced me. Dougweller (talk) 11:52, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Support: LHvU has a better reasoning than I have. Additionally, I will note that I remember him trolling the Obama articles, where he was convinced that Obama was a secret Muslim communist who stole the election because of ACORN. Anyone who seriously believes that belongs on Conservapedia, not here. Sceptre (talk) 13:07, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Not quite how that went down. One to nurse a grudge, Sceptre? I am sure, bright young fellow that you are, that you know exactly what you have done. Building the strawman is not particularly crafty this late in the game. I had expected something a little more thoughtful from you after a year. Sigh. Are the tellietubies not on yet?--Die4Dixie (talk) 13:54, 3 December 2009 (UTC) The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. [edit] Alternatives to a ban Note: Jehochman and Wehwalt are currently discussing alternatives to a community ban for the user. Please see the discussion here before adding your !vote to the discussion above. Abecedare (talk) 18:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Comment Instead of unblocking and then offering D4D a compromise whereby he retracted his remarks, otherwise we go to an RFC (in other words, another complete waste of many editors time and effort), why on earth wasn't he left blocked until he withdrew those remarks and promised not to re-state them? Serious failure of WP:COMMON there, methinks. Black Kite 19:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Time is never wasted in dealing with an editor in a manner not only fair, but also seen to be fair.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:08, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Oh, it is, because an RFC/U is inevitably subsumed in a large amount of bickering, most of which isn't actually about the subject in hand. And a lot of the time it leads to a unanimous agreement that ... er ... something should be done, but we're not sure what. Black Kite 19:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC) And what alternative is better?--Wehwalt (talk) 19:34, 2 December 2009 (UTC) The one favoured by most contributors to this thread (i.e. leaving him indeffed until there's some evidence that there is recognition of the behaviour that caused the block, and some evidence that it won't recur). Black Kite 21:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Moot point. The community seems to be taking it out of our hands, which is its right. I can only say I didn't think of it, and it wasn't proposed at the time. Whether I would have done that had I or someone else thought of it? Hmmm, not sure. Possibly the best course was to defer decision for a bit and urge D4D to strike the language before making a decision. But hindsight and 20/20 and all that. Hard to say.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Only moot because you mooted it by unblocking. Protonk (talk) 22:34, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Well that's easy. Unblocking him forces the discussion, because only re-blocking him is wheel warring. :| Protonk (talk) 19:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC) <comment restored after being accidentally removed in an edit conflict. Sorry about that> My response was eaten in an edit conflict, but he was unblocked because the structure of wheel makes only the reblocking wheel warring. Protonk (talk) 19:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Regardless of what WP:WHEEL says, it's always been very bad form to undo another admin's block without the blocking admin's consent and when community discussion is strongly supportive of that block. I can tell you that I probably wouldn't be as conciliatory as Jehochman about it, if I were in his shoes. MastCell Talk 19:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Interesting characterization, MastCell. I read the discussion as deeply divided, and very powerful arguments made that no valid blocking rationale had been stated. That's what I limited myself to. Consent? I don't think that is the standard. That leaves things in the blocking admin's hands, which is not how things work. The blocking admin and I were part of a discussion at AN/I, and I looked at all the arguments in making a decision to unblock that I knew was not going to be wildly popular, but which was doing the right thing by an editor. It is the decision you have to make sometimes, even if you know you are going to take heat for it. Sorry if you feel offended on behalf of Jehochman, but he and I then engaged constuctively on how to move forward.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC) (Edit Conflict)I don't see community discussion as being "strongly supportive" of the block. There's definitely some issues with D4D's conduct, but there's also been some serious questions raised as to the manner in which the block was applied. The issue at hand is not D4D's conduct (which seems to have been blown out of proportion) but rather whether the block was applied in an appropriate manner. I contend that it was not. I'm not offering support to D4D, I'm expressing my reservations as to how the block was applied. Throwaway85 (talk) 19:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC) While I'm extremely unimpressed with D4D's conduct in general and am sitting on the fence regarding the prospect of a community ban, it seems clear to me that the original block was not applied correctly. The solution linked above looks like the right way to be moving. Brilliantine (talk) 20:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Had an editor stated any other nationality/religion/ethnicity/cultural identity regarding any other editor-admin, I am sure that many members of the admin community would not have escalated it in the same way. That is the problem. The only way to be fair is to make policy tighter on these issues and enforce it more consistently where applicable. Being less conciliatory than necessary is counterproductive, particularly for a discussion where established editors are deeply divided on a matter of principle and approach rather than on the matter of an individual. There are very limited situations where in such discussions we can afford to focus on improving principle and approach prior to reviewing the individual, and I firmly believe this is one of them. But I fear that we're so used to focussing on the individual that the principle and approach is slowly being forgotten and is gradually going to cause even more problems for future disputes, including those that end up in front of ArbCom. Oh well, not our problem I suppose. Ncmvocalist (talk) 20:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC) It is what it is. All you can do is continue to do what you feel to be right.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC) That's a very salient point, ncm. I've been involved in articles on Irish nationalism, and there have definitely been times where an admin was accused of using their tools to ban people on account of nationality. Never was it considered racist. I feel I must make this very clear: Insinuating that a Jewish admin was rushing to another's aid on account of their 'jewdom', rather than the merits of the case is not, repeat NOT racist. It may be wrong, or it may well be right. Either way, it's a legitimate concern, and one's particular religious or ethnic background does not give one immunity from such accusations. In no way is such an accusation a blockable offense, unless it contravened other established policies. Nor is it a personal attack, and must not be viewed as such. If an admin takes offense to an editor's claims about the motivation for their conduct, they need to seek a second opinion from another, uninvolved admin. Throwaway85 (talk) 20:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Concur. The only thing separating this from other such cases is the specific ethnicity concerned; and that's a very, very bad state of affairs. Equazcion (talk) 21:01, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Not sure this is true. I'm fairly certain there would be immense outrage if he requested that no black administrators review his block. In fact, I'm fairly certain that if it was any other ethnic or religious groups besides Jews, this block wouldn't be an issue. "I don't want any Asians reviewing my block". Indef without any objections. "I don't want any Jews reviewing my block." Fair enough. AniMate 21:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC) That's skewed phrasing in favor of your point. He said "Could a non involved gentile please look at this?" If someone were block by an Asian-sounding name on the belief that he insulted Asian culture, and said "Could an uninvolved non-Asian please look at this?", I don't think racism would've been suggested. Equazcion (talk) 21:12, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Actually, I disagree. Asking for uninvolved administrators is fine. Any administrator who reviews a block has to be uninvolved. We don't get to cherry pick by race, nationality, gender, or sexual orientation. No admin is infallible, but to disqualify an entire group of admins based on their religion, race, gender, or sexual orientation is flat out wrong. AniMate 21:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC) ┌─────────────────────────────────────┘ I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I see nothing wrong with requesting an uninvolved admin of a different ethnicity than the one you feel is conspiring against you. Throwaway85 (talk) 21:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Problem is that there wasn't a conspiracy and acquiescing to these kinds of demands is an insult to editors of any faith or race. AniMate 21:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC) It's really not, and despite the term conspiracy being thrown around here, he didn't use that word in his request. Furthermore he wasn't disqualifying an entire group *period*; he was rather disqualifying the group that his comments were perceived as offending. That makes his request a COI concern rather than racism as you imply. Equazcion (talk) 21:33, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) No, you aren't entitled to choose the race, ethnicity, or religion of admins to handle a matter. The US has considered the matter many times (for example here) with respect to court trials. Claiming that you can't be a fair administrator on a matter if you're Jewish is just wrong. The request is inappropriate but not terribly offensive on its face, but it does tend to inflame a delicate situation - best to give a firm "no" and move on. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Policy doesn't support his request. You're more than welcome to attempt to change WP:UNINVOLVED to conform with your views. AniMate 21:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Irrelevant since I didn't make any claims about whether policy supports the request. This isn't a question of whether or not it should have been granted -- only regarding whether or not it necessarily constituted racism, and whether he deserved to be blocked indefinitely for it. Again it was a COI concern and not racism. Unreasonable request maybe, racism no. Equazcion (talk) 21:49, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) This is getting pointless. The reviewing admin thought it was anti-Semitic and the majority of users here agree. The only place I can see major disagreements is over whether or not Jehochman's original block was warranted and if that tainted the indef block. Split hairs all you like, I'm pretty much done here. AniMate 21:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Equazcion and I are saying the same thing, I think. A comment can be racially offensive without being intentionally so. To those who consider it anti-Semitic and worthy of sanctions, I urge them to think twice about whether it is better to simply punish people for causing offense, or to educate them as to why you're offended. The first approach doesn't really change anything. My two cents is that both the original block and the indef were within the blocking administrators' discretion and should not have been undone without discussion. Not that I agree with them, but undoing other admins' actions unless they are clearly erroneous often triggers a lot of unnecessary hand-wringing, this discussion being a case in point. What's the hurry to unblock? There's no deadline here. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Basically yes, except on the procedural concerns of unblocking, which I don't have much of an opinion on. This is part ignorance and part not having thought about it... discussion prior to unblocking seems reasonable, but I also don't see much harm in unblocking as it seems to not have been preventative. It seems more harmful to me to keep someone blocked who might not deserve it, unless they're a potential immediate threat, and I didn't get the impression that that was a concern. This seemed to be one of the more "deterrent" type blocks. Equazcion (talk) 22:14, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) [edit] Request for non-Jewish admin "possibly legitimate" Resolved by the Official Soviet Red Herring This resolution deserves special comment. Many Wikipedians choose usernames that are unrelated to their religion, etc. Also due to adoptions and quirks of inheritance quite a few people even have surnames that bear little or no connection to their actual heritage. It is inappropriate and bad faith to presume that such types of coincidence impede administrative judgment. Durova371 02:15, 3 December 2009 (UTC) (unmarking resolution) I actually think granting the request for review from a non-jewish admin would have settled the matter quicker. Think about it: You have a belief that jewish admins are teaming up against you due to their ethnicity. What's going to do more good: Having an uninvovled gentile admin say "no, you were wrong", or having the two jewish admins say "no, you don't get to have a non-jew look at it". I'm not saying policy should be changed to reflect this, simply that in this case it might have prevented escalation. Throwaway85 (talk) 22:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC) There is dubious value to validating such a request in any way. Among other matters, the inheritance aspect of Judaism comes through the mother's side while surnames generally derive from the father's. So through intermarriage quite a few people with Jewish surnames belong to other faiths. Also names (both rl and usernames) may be selected to honor an individual's achievements (as opposed to religion or ethnicity). We wouldn't take such a demand seriously if it referred to gender or nationality, and indeed when blocked users presumed I was Russian it never garnered more than a belly laugh. Nothing has changed since then. Durova371 02:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Ok. I'm not jewish. I reviewed the block and determined that it needed to be lengthened considerably, not reversed. Protonk (talk) 22:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC) That's fine. At this point I'm just commenting on people's objection to D4D's request for non-jewish review, which people took exception to. I still think more discussion prior to your indef block would have been proper, but that's a seperate issue. It's also a moot one, as a course of action that allows D4D to acknowledge and apologize for his actions has already been undertaken. Throwaway85 (talk) 22:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC) (edit conflict) Doesn't count unless you tell him you're granting his request; plus the problems stated above of your reason for doing so; and the oddity of extending a block as a result of an unblock request, which makes your claim of granting the request seem rather after-the-fact; and there is the fact that it actually is after-the-fact; oh and you're right, this is the perfect time for flip and facetious responses to your opponents, what with the lighthearted nature of the subject matter. Good call. Equazcion (talk) 22:42, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Let's not escalate things any further here. Throwaway85 (talk) 22:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I'm not being flip or facetious, at least not in this comment. I'm unconvinced by your claim that unless I literally edit the unblock request it doesn't count. Besides, it is all premised on the absurd notion that D4D is somehow entitled to demand that a unitarian unblock him, or what-have you. Protonk (talk) 22:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC) If you consider the demand unreasonable (and I don't necessarily disagree), then your response implying that you granted it ("it" being the request for a non-jewish admin) is facetious, especially considering that you added the fact that you extended the block instead as a result of an unblock request. You were being humorous. It would've been good, had we not been in the lengthy argument we're in. Equazcion (talk) 23:07, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) I'm not sure we are connecting here. I wasn't joking when I suggested that indeffing him was an implicit unblock review, where the unblock request was that a non-jew review the block. Why we are even having an argument w/ the assumption that such a request is something done in polite society is pretty unclear to me. Protonk (talk) 23:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC) We are having the discussion because there's a couple of members of said polite society who believe the request could have some legitimacy. Throwaway85 (talk) 23:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I remember at some stage Alison (talk · contribs) was told by a fellow administrator that her Irish background meant that she should probably not administer issues connected with the Troubles. These statements about presumed Jewish administrators are similarly disturbing. This is a sad day for wikipedia. Mathsci (talk) 23:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Aw, it's not that bad! It's not a sad day, just an impermissible request for which a firm "no" is called for. I have chosen not to reveal my ethnicity, race, gender, nationality, location, political beliefs, etc., on Wikipedia (although some would be an easy guess). In this particular case it's moot because I'm not an admin, but in a more general sense if I have decided that ethnicity / religion is not part of my editing experience, I don't think that issue should be forced on me. That's a corollary of the right to edit anonymously, not to have your religion called into question. On the other hand if I loudly proclaimed everywhere that I was an activist on Jewish causes, then by my statements I was declaring a personal position. That's different, and it would be reasonable for someone to assert that this gave too much of an appearance of bias for me to pass judgment on someone's statements about the subject. If D4D were truly concerned and had a legitimate fear of being ganged up on, a more delicate thing to request would be to find administrators who do not have a content stake on articles reflecting Jews and the holocaust. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:05, 3 December 2009 (UTC) (edit conflict) Always the dramatic, Mathsci :) I view this portion of the discussion as more academic, as the main issue is really whether or not the request itself was enough of a problem to block indef for. Whether or not it should actually be granted in the future is an interesting subject, and I don't see it being "sad" to discuss it, but it's sort of beyond this particular incident. Equazcion (talk) 00:07, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC) I wouldn't be surprised if people commenting in favour of D4D in this thread were themselves blocked at some later stage. What some of them have written here seems ill-considered. Mathsci (talk) 00:17, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Absolutely. The number and vehemance of the anti-semitic apologists in this discussion is appalling. Crafty (talk) 00:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC) That's uncalled for. Come on guys, this is a discussion, not a riot. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:29, 3 December 2009 (UTC) ┌─────────────────────────────────────┘ Am I to understand that those calling for additional blocks don't see how that behaviour contributes to the perception, rightly or wrongly, that there are special interest groups on wikipedia who will band together to ensure that their views become official policy? Are you kidding me? You want to dole out a block for my saying that D4D's request for a non-jewish admin to review his case in light of his belief that he was being discriminated against could be valid? That I'm being anti-semitic? You are doing nothing to help your own position or wikipedia by so arguing. You are, in fact, lending credibility to the bigots and racists out there. Throwaway85 (talk) 00:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Let's just end this. What administrative action is required for this specific issue? To me this appears to be a policy discussion and AN/I is for incidents that require administrative action. If you want to change the rules for Jewish administrators, start a discussion at WP:Administrators or file an WP:RfC. The only aspect of this that we can really do anything about here is the community ban. Let's focus on that. AniMate 00:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC) I agree with your assessment, especially in light of the new action being taken in regards to D4D. For the record, I'm not saying anything about Jewish admins, just questioning the hasty remarks some editors have been making here. Throwaway85 (talk) 00:58, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Some users appear to have suggested on-wiki, and have requested clarification off-wiki, as to whether I'm "sympathetic" to Die4Dixie, or an "apologist" of anti-semitic commentary. The plain answer on both counts is no. I do hope that Craftyminion (talk · contribs) will take more care in his/her future on-wiki comments to avoid sparking something like this again. I don't recall interacting with Die4Dixie previously, nor have I expressed a view on the merits of anything beyond a block rationale, and I certainly don't find any sort of offensive commentary acceptable. What I am sympathetic towards, as my earlier comment was hinting at, is the inconsistent enforcement by the community at large. Be it the admins or the established editors who've responded here, none had responded as aggressively as they did here (if at all) to similar accusations of bad faith in some other cases, whether it's a European ethnic conflict (English/Irish), an Asian ethnic conflict (Indian subgroups), or some other conflict involving race/religion/ethnicity/nationality/cultural identity. Is there inconsistent enforcement because some people are more aware about history relating to a particular type (Jewish), and not others? Or is it because of how "well known" the individuals involved are? Is it a lack of clarity/awareness in policy? Or finally, is it because there is an genuine (but very unfortunate) divide in the community on this principle? Frankly, I don't know - I just want that to be remedied so everyone who makes a particular type of comment or demand is treated in the same way, regardless of which race/religion/ethnicity/nationality/cultural identity they touch on, and regardless of which individual (be it editor or admin) that the accusation goes against. Misrepresenting this as being apologistic to what is broadly unacceptable simply add heats to a discussion, not light. Sometimes users who raise an issue for community awareness are doing just that - nothing more. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Nmvocalist: grotesque discussions of the type that D4D was having about pictures of what Yad Vashem would normally classify as a "pile of corpses" are just not acceptable on wikipedia, nor are the ensuing Jewish conspiracy theories. Likewise a grotesque discussion about a picture of comparable atrocities elsewhere in the world should elicit a similar reaction. That is for example why Fourdee (talk · contribs) was banned by Jimbo. Indef blocked MoritzB (talk · contribs) for example was inserting material in Lynching from contemporary newspaper reports to suggest that the lynchings were merited. It's probably worth looking more carefully at the whole of D4D's recent contributions, including the remark left on Durova's talk page. In addition, there are others opposing the community ban such as William S. Saturn (talk · contribs) whose alternative accounts have been involved in Holocaust denial. [24] I think that in a more general context you are making a valid point; however in this particular case the extreme nature of D4D's remarks, just like those of Fourdee in the period leading up to his ban, go beyond reasonable limits. That is probably why Protonk extended the block to indefinite. Mathsci (talk) 07:47, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Thanks Mathsci. Raising the point in a more general context unfortunately does not receive enough input from the community and does little in the way of raising awareness effectively to those who need to be aware of it - the editors and admins who intervene to help resolve these sorts of issues. That's why I raised it during this incident when there is deep care and a lot of eyes, so that the process of addressing the issue finally begins. I hope that you will, at least in time, appreciate that it would not have been possible to do so effectively, without Wehwalt's intervention. In the meantime, I've struck my procedural oppose as it can no longer apply to this specific case. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Why not just ask D4D how he meant it? It's a troubling subject no matter how one comments on it - all talk of the Holocaust is difficult, and should be so. But did D4D mean to cause trouble, or were his comments earnest but insensitive? - Wikidemon (talk) 08:14, 3 December 2009 (UTC) [25] may help answer that. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC) EC x 2. Look, you will always be able to find something to be offended at. Hochman gives his name, posts his picture, links to his Linkdn page all from his userpage. That google search is not offensive in the slightest. I have not engaged in any Jewish conspiracy theory. No mention of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, no holocaust denial. Nice try at the association fallacy by suggesting that I am like someone like Fourdee. I never knew what the yad vashem was that keeps getting invoked here until I clicked on the link. The picture was put there to be looked at. It is a grotesque picture. I have struck those comments hours ago now. Please see the discussion on my talkpage that explains. What ever Saturn has done with his account does not mean that I am Saturn. Can you not do better than these tired ad hominems? Collect the diffs on this history of jew baiting, because that is what you are acusing me of, right? You are way too invested in this. Go have a cup of tea or read a book. You may think that your attacks are ok because you are discussing banning me, and twisting something to make it appear that I have claimed some conspiracy to try and tar me with antisemitism, but it is not. Nice trying to poison the well with mentioning lynching too.--Die4Dixie (talk) 08:22, 3 December 2009 (UTC) D4D, if you didn't / don't mean to offend why not just say that? Intended or not, you upset some people who have good reason to be offended. Some here lost loved ones in the tragedy, and even those who did not are keeping the memory alive so it won't be repeated. Whether you intended to bait or not your line snared some deep fish. I think it would be helpful to separate that question from the related issue of whether you were unfairly treated here for speaking your mind. If that's the case why not just apologize for having upset people and in the future try not to step on those landmines. Perhaps take your lumps? Sorry if this sounds PC but some subjects deserve deference to people's feelings. - Wikidemon (talk) 08:55, 3 December 2009 (UTC) D4D's explanations are not helpful, here or elsewhere. In the original discussion, he mentioned that he clicked on the image. At that point he could see all the data on the image in front of him, including a reference to the original photographic library from which the image was apparently copied. In fact for images of this kind that site uses captions which refer to "prisoners" without further qualification. The wikipedia article Holocaust is similar. Mathsci (talk) 09:20, 3 December 2009 (UTC) I clinked the link from ANI. I didn´t examine the pedigree or providence of the photo. I looked at the penises. Wikidemom, adversus solem ne loquitor. The hive is agitated. Axes were ground today. This is a bonding ritual for some. Have fun. You can read thaat tally up above.--Die4Dixie (talk) 09:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC) BTW Jehochman lives in Connecticut. Here is his linkedin page [26]. The Jonathan Hochman D4D unearthed lives in Texas. This seems to be his linkedin page [27], judging by the references to Mensa, information technology and rodeo riding. This is the kind of unfortunate error that happens when editors start writing about conspiracy theories. Mathsci (talk) 09:54, 3 December 2009 (UTC) And I apologized if it was not him. Nothing is going to satisfy you but a sacrificial rite. Where was the the conspiracy theory. I was concerned that he could not put his feelings aside, just like you can´t seem to do. I struck the G*d damn comments on the penis page, I have been roundly abused and all kinds of motives have been ascribed. You sound like I was writing some treatise on Some International Jewish Conspiracy. I wasn´t , and I didn´t. Me, I´m going to eat a bagel. You should have a cup of tea. And thank goodness I didn´t invert that order or you would have cranked up the Hague.--Die4Dixie (talk) 10:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Why is D4D still repeating this error [28]? What is the exact point of writing "Oy Vey (smacks head)."? Is it some form of joke? Mathsci (talk) 10:15, 3 December 2009 (UTC) What is the exact point of pointing that out? Is it some sort of assertion? Equazcion (talk) 10:31, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC) It shows that there are probably still problems with D4D's edits to wikipedia. Mathsci (talk) 10:55, 3 December 2009 (UTC) This is surreal. No, a request for a non-Jewish admin is not legitimate. If you think so, would you be willing to entertain requests for non-white admins on anything that has to do with slavery (well, we want non-black there as well) or the third world? For non-American admins on articles about the Iraq war, the Vietnam war, Waterboarding, or the election campaign? For non-Christian admins, for, say, work on Jesus? For non-male admins on Marie Curie or Divorce (where you could also ask on non-female ones, or non-divorced ones...). The suggestion that a whole large group of editors is biased because of their ethnicity, or gender, or hair color, is inherently offensive to all civilized society. . --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC) These are poor analogies. Are you suggesting that anyone who doesn´t share your rigid world view is uncivilized? Is that not the hight of cultural elitism? The least tolerant attitude that I have yet to see tonight? Are you suggesting that I am not civilized, herr Schulz? Unvarnished prose is to be perfered.--Die4Dixie (talk) 10:56, 3 December 2009 (UTC) They're poor analogies for another reason too: People in those situations wouldn't be nearly as likely to offend as easily due to the subject matter. Jewish admins acting on a perceived antisemitic remark, particularly on a Holocaust article, and particularly on a photo of dead Holocaust victims, is much more understandably called a possible conflict of interest. Not that I necessarily think D4D's request should have been granted, but still, it wasn't entirely disgusting either, nor worthy of the racism label. Equazcion (talk) 11:14, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC) I suggest that you (D4D) are intentionally offensive to make a WP:POINT, both in this last reply, in the original scuffle, and in your request for a non-Jewish admin. You may or may not be civilized, but with your behavior is not fit for civilized society. WP:AGF is not a suicide pact. You have exhausted my good faith a while ago. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Retreating to the original accusation doesn't advance the argument. This is the equivalent of "I still think you're wrong". Equazcion (talk) 11:26, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC) (ec) Are you joking? This guy has just been released from an indef block on condition that he starts behaving, immediately goes around saying "Oy vey" and "Herr Schulz", and you accuse Stephan Schulz of "retreating to the original accusation" when he points out the obvious problem? Are you from some strange civilisation where that would be considered normal or even deescalating behaviour? It's getting more and more obvious that I was right before: That guy simply tries to stay just below the level where it gets actionable. (The technical term for this is of course "trolling", and I am usually quite reluctant to use it. Here it's obvious by now.) Hans Adler 11:45, 3 December 2009 (UTC) "Pointing out the obvious problem" again isn't helpful. Providing rationale to back up why one sees a problem is a better way to go. Otherwise we're all just repeating ourselves ad nauseum. Equazcion (talk) 11:50, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC) Huh? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:35, 3 December 2009 (UTC) In other words, in your last response you didn't answer the last point brought, nor did you provide any further rationale to advance your argument. You instead repeated your feeling that the user was being intentionally offensive, which I think everyone already knows by now, and doesn't help the discussion. Equazcion (talk) 11:38, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC) To be fair Equazicon, if everybody knows the editor is being intentionally offensive, we're done. WP:POINT clearly states that this is being disruptive and that can lead to a block or ban. Are you honestly asking us to be thought police and determine why D$D is acting this way? Does it excuse his continued behavior? Is there really a set of empirical datum that would lead you to believe you knew anything about an anonymous user on an Internet web site? "Why" isn't the question, that the situation "is" is enough. If D4D wants to advance his social acumen he can open a dialog about what is offensive for himself. The impetus is on him to want to understand others and change. Or he can choose to continue and be subjected to these situations over and over again. I guess I need to ask, why is it beholden of us to understand him? (other than the painfully altruistic reasons) Padillah (talk) 17:43, 3 December 2009 (UTC) To Schulz: Now what did you find so offensive about me requesting that you clarify an extremely offensive post. Don´t even try to say that you came to this discussion with your good faith pants on. You have been twisting everything you could get your hands on to contort it to the least favorable and most inflammatory extreme that you possible could. You have engaged in logical fallacies, reductio ad you name its, and general nastiness. What were you so offended by? That someone you tried to minimize and dehumanize wasn´t inclined to entertain your melodramaticly waxing poetic bull shit?--Die4Dixie (talk) 11:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC) In fairness I think you're "contorting to the least favorable and most inflammatory extreme that you possible can" too, D4D. Summing up your opponents' arguments as bullshit isn't helpful. Most people in an argument with opponents they don't care for think similarly, and saying it doesn't help anyone. It's probably best to stick to intellectual arguments rather than resorting to hostile classifications. But I'm probably wasting my time, aren't I. Equazcion (talk) 11:48, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC) I think that I have suffered a great deal of abuse at this man´s hands. Pointed abuse, over the top personal attacks. If I crossed the line with BS, ok. Perhaps I might not be helping myself here now. But his civilized comments and dichotomizing was a little over the top. Your call.--Die4Dixie (talk) 11:56, 3 December 2009 (UTC) In my view most of the people commenting here are over the top. I've probably been guilty of the same at some point. Let's just all try to keep it under control and keep it civil/rational/fact-based, rather than seeking to strike emotional blows at one-another. Equazcion (talk) 12:00, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC) Equazcion, stop enabling this obvious racist troll or we will have to start a discussion on what to do about you. I am not familiar with you and therefore find it hard to judge if your current behaviour is in good faith or not. It certainly doesn't look as if it is. Hans Adler 12:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Whether or not this person is an "obvious racist troll" is precisely what we're trying to determine, through discussion, which is all I'm doing. I don't see anything particularly wrong with that, even if lots of people disagree with me. When it's a majority against a minority, flinging "you're wrong"s and "youre obviously this or that"s is unfortunately all that's needed, since the majority has more bullets. My "enabling", as you put it, is an attempt to level the playing field and get rid of the back-and-forth accusations in favor of forcing more intelligent discussion. Feel free to start a discussion about me though, if you feel that's a bad thing. Equazcion (talk) 12:16, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC) I guess obvious racist trolls need love, too! Seriously, if you're looking for a chance to get your Fightin' for the Underdog ya-yas out, you've picked the wrong cause to champion. --Calton | Talk 14:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC) So much for raising the intelligence bar of this discussion. If it were about who could develop the more clever and cutting line, I think I'd win. I'm totally good at that, in addition to waxing intellectica. But that's neither here nor there... right? Equazcion (talk) 14:31, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC) Hans Adler, I don't think we need to call Equazcion's motives into question. So far he has stuck to defending the editor, not the edits. He has asked some fair questions and has continuously decried the statements that D4D is being called out on. I see no reason not to continue to AGF with this guy. Padillah (talk) 17:47, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Comment, I've tried to stay out of this but would like to say some now. First, asking for a non Jewish administrator is never acceptable. Googling to find information about any editor is also very much against policy. I won't classify anyone but I was very angry at both of these things happening. I am also upset to read this whole thread to find that no one, not one editor or administrator comments on the searching admitted to. Dixie, I have no problems with you personally but these two things really irked the hell out of me. I just had to let Dixie and others here know that their are some of us lurking. These things need to stop asap. Thank you for your time, --CrohnieGalTalk 12:52, 3 December 2009 (UTC) It's a bit uncouth to bring up, in a dispute with another editor, personal details that you've found out about them through off-wiki methods, and in the case of revealing specific identifying information could be considered outing. The googling alone isn't against policy though. You can google whatever you want whenever you want. Equazcion (talk) 13:00, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC) It's a bit uncouth to bring up, in a dispute with another editor, personal details that you've found out about them through off-wiki methods, and in the case of revealing specific identifying information could be considered outing. "A bit uncouth"? He did the Googling and outed the editor in order to prove that the editor was a Jew and thus biased (as if that makes sense). There are several steps to D4D's logic, all of whch are not just stupid, not just racist and offensive, but all three. And of course this entire train of logic is to prove that he was not trolling when analyzing the foreskins on pictures of corpses and coming to conclusions about the Holocaust from the presumed existence of foreskins on one image. Are we obliged to allow insane people to edit the encyclopedia? — goethean ॐ 20:02, 3 December 2009 (UTC) (←) For the benefit of Ncmvocalist (and others of similar mind) I am entirely comfortable with the way I have conducted myself in this matter. I know a bigot when I see one. D4D's conduct was dreadful, blatantly anti-semitic and wantonly disruptive. By that conduct he placed himself outside of the Wikipedia community as confirmed by the passage of his ban. I would remind those of you currently styling yourselves as champions of free speech that D4D finds himself banned as a result of his actions alone. Crafty (talk) 19:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC) I think at this point we can mark this resolved, as this is now just debate for the sake of debate. We're not going to change policy to force all Jewish admins to be recused from anything related to the Holocaust and the editor in question has been community banned. We should all get back to editing the encyclopedia. AniMate 19:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC) [edit] Arb I agree with equz. If you want to vote, vote. But enough of the attacks and melodramatic flairs. If someone has a concrete thing they would like me to do, suggest it. If not, I´ll concede the field. What has happened here is and was wrong.--Die4Dixie (talk) 12:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC) [edit] Motion to Close Support - User banned, etc, etc, etc. Nothing else to do here.— Dædαlus Contribs 23:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC) Yupyup What he said. Durova371 01:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC) [edit] Motion to Collapse So it doesn't take up half of AN/I? Throwaway85 (talk) 02:51, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Unsupported attacks by Redheylin after warnings

Redheylin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) has received multiple different warnings from admins and established editors over a long period of time to cease making personal attacks and unsupported claims about other editors which amount to same. He has continued to do so [29]. Admin action is required here, as the multiple "final warnings" have had no effect.

• After an ANI thread was closed by admin Jehochman with a warning to Redheylin [30], I had hoped that the issue would be resolved. However it appears this is not the case, as Redheylin continues to make wholly unsupported claims that I "make changes to a page with a view to making a WP:POINT on another page", that I use "inadequate citations", and that this is "disruptive" [31].

• Comments by a third-party, previously uninvolved editor Brumski, show that this is not the case: The sources directly support the text, and subsequent analysis, Redheylin, it is not true that the references to back up the text in the article were only added after your recourse to ANI..

Warnings

• 01:01, 16 April 2009 - From Jennavecia: - Also, regarding the Osho Follower AFD, please keep comments in the AFD on-topic, commenting on the content, not the contributors. All things unrelated to the article in question for the matter of it's appropriateness for inclusion should be made on relevant talk pages. Avoid making comments that may be taken as personal attacks, and hopefully this can all be resolved quickly and without a lot of stress for those involved.
• 16:24, 16 April 2009 - From Peteforsyth: Personal attacks - Your personal attacks (as I explained here) are not welcome, especially in the course of a WP:AFD. ... if you choose to proceed, please build a case based on diffs and other specific evidence.
• 13:32, 29 November 2009 - From Georgewilliamherbert: ANI - Claims of falsified sources - Redheylin - In case it was not already clear, it is against Wikipedia policy to repeatedly claim that someone is using false sources without specifically naming what sources are false and what evidence that you have that they are false. It is disruptive behavior and a form of personal attack, alleging that someone else is violating policy without substantive evidence.
• 13:34, 29 November 2009 - From Georgewilliamherbert: Continuing to push for sanction on claims of misbehavior without providing evidence is disruptive and a form of violation of our no personal attacks policy.
• 13:47, 29 November 2009 - From Georgewilliamherbert: If you will not retract and will not provide details, you are violating our policy against disruptive editing and our policy against personal attacks and are subject to user sanction if you continue the behavior. This warning is a final notice. Please take it seriously.
• 14:06, 29 November 2009 - From Georgewilliamherbert: You have continued to make acusations on ANI without making specific, item by item descriptions of how the references were false. I requested that you do so both on ANI and here.
• 21:58, 29 November 2009 - From Georgewilliamherbert: Regarding this edit on ANI where you claim "User's willingness to deceive ANI also noted" regarding Cirt - This statement violates our policy against making personal attacks. ... If you make further personal attacks on Cirt or otherwise disrupt the process you are subject to being blocked. Please stay focused on the source issues and do not attack individual contributors.
• 14:58, 30 November 2009 - From John Carter - You should know violating WP:NPA is a very serious offense. Accusing someone of falsifying documentation without any evidence to support that claim is even more serious, and you have done both recently, on administrator noticeboards no less. You are very lucky you weren't blocked for that already. Don't expect your luck to continue should that sort of behavior continue as well.

ANI thread closed by Jehochman with warning to Redheylin

• 03:51, 30 November 2009 - Comment by Jehochman: There's a lot of verbage here, but from what I gather, Redheylin is violating the principle that Wikipedia is not for ideological battle. Various personal attacks and unsupported claims have been made, but if they end now, then nobody needs to be blocked. If they don't end, well, a block may be the result.
• 04:29, 30 November 2009 - ANI thread closed by Jehochman: It seems that the original complaint has been evaluated and there is a consensus that warnings that User:Redheylin avoid WP:BATTLE behavior are sufficient.

Redheylin recent unsupported claims

• 13:02, 29 November 2009 - My objection here and at ANI concerns the addition of references by Cirt that claim to support this requirement but do not. These are bogus links clearly added, I believe, purely to carry a point on a tangentially-related page.
• 16:31, 29 November 2009 - The references brought by user Cirt did not support the allegation (Cirt is a keen editor of pages hostile to the subject) and required ANI.
• 08:49, 2 December 2009 - At the time I notified Cirt of ANI report, the first two references provided by Cirt, both of which failed to support the text, were still the only two authoritative sources in place and both failed to give support to the assertion referred to them. After being informed of the report, Cirt added more references, who up to that point had asserted that these were sufficient - but the two sources in question were still cited as saying what they did not say, and have never at any time been cited on this page as examples of authoritative sources that DO NOT back Cirt's POV. ... Finally, when a user seeks to make changes to a page with a view to making a WP:POINT on another page, uses inadequate citations and refuses to desist without recourse to admin, that editor is disruptive.

---

Thank you for your time, Cirt (talk) 15:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I tend to agree with the above comments, that the editor in question has in fact continued to engage in what is clearly disruptive and tendentious editing, even after being warned repeatedly to cease such behavior. Unfortunately, I also know that I would be perceived as having a conflict of interest in actively imposing the deserved sanctions myself. John Carter (talk) 16:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I think we should invite the editor to comment here. If we cannot reach a mutual agreement with them to stop pestering you, then several of us can certify an RfC, and based upon the results there, we may be able to implement a community sanction forcing the editor to disengage for you or the topic areas where they habitually get into trouble. I recognize that this is a potentially time consuming process, but I think it is the only way to generate a solid consensus for a remedy that will provide lasting relief. Escalating blocks to the user will just result in more grief; I'd rather not kick the can down the road. We should deal with this problem seriously and decisively. Jehochman ^Talk 16:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Gave notice to user's talkpg when I filed it [32]. Cirt (talk) 16:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

• All of the above admin/editors have intervened on behalf of Cirt. Cirt has a long history of edit-warring on "new religious movements" and has been in dispute with many editors. I think you'll find that, outside these pages, these things do not happen much to me. On the other hand, as I say, these things "happen to" Cirt with many editors. This experience conditions my impression of this affair. Although I have spent only a short time involved with these pages, Cirt has secured several warnings from admins who allege that all objections to disruption, poor citation, incivility and lack of good faith are "personal attacks" on Cirt, whereas Cirt's own comments are above reproach as she is "highly respected". Well, she may be, but her application for sysop status drew great concern owing to repeated blocks for those very faults on these very articles. I have had no contact with any of these editors other than when they intervened on Cirt's behalf. Their minds were, I fear, made up, and their approaches often questionable. Just now user John Carter has ventured to forbid me ALL bold editing for no clear reason. As for Georgewilliamherbert, here's how we met on my talk page:

Redheylin - It has been suggested that this exchange of correspondence lead to you acting as Off2riorob's proxy, or collaboration between you two, in complaining about Cirt's conduct (your recent ANI posting). Given Off2riorob's recent disagreement with Cirt the combination of behavior is sort of suspicious. Would you like to comment on ANI regarding the nature of this discussion you two had? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:53, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

• This is to say, as Cirt has been in edit-war with ANOTHER editor YOU must be acting in bad faith. This IS an assumption of bad faith, based on another editor's asking to confer with me on some matter - I do not know which as the contact never occurred. But the above admin used this allegation to turn MY ANI report on Cirt's misuse of citations, which he avoided by repeatedly asking me to define the way in which the information claimed was not present, into a witch-hunt based on his own unsupported accusations of some unnamed nefarious collaboration. This stuff is hard to take seriously - and that seems to make these folks very mad. That's all. Redheylin (talk) 22:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Update: Continued violations by Redheylin

• [33], [34]

This comment violates WP:NPA, as it makes attacks not backed up or supported by anything. It violates WP:NOT#FORUM, as it is use of the talk page space for discussion not related to further improvement of this article but rather to increase drama and drag out attacks. And per both of those, it violates WP:BATTLE. I asked Redheylin to remove it. He refused, saying: If you think it's an attack, report it.. Cirt (talk) 02:25, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• See A dispute arose after an edit was reversed, with accusations of ownership and incivility FwiW Bzuk (talk) 14:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC).

[edit] Disagreement with Cirt's analysis

Stating that content isn't supported by the citations used is a personal attack? Since when? And I don't see saying someone has a POV as ideal, although it's sometimes accurate and worth pointing out. Is Cirt denying he has a point of view? I don't see how any of this behavior is blockable, but Cirt's aggressive battlefield approach has been extraordinarily disruptive. If accusign someone of having a POV is blockable then the diffs of Cirt saying the same thing repeatedly are problematic. He's also made numerous statements ascribing bad faith to others and accusing them of collusion. This ANI report is outrageous and some sanction against Cirt and his suitability to have admin tools may be worth considering. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Since it was about matters which had been resolved already, and the editor in question has continued to basically continued to beat a dead horse, which is a form of tendentious editing, which itself is a violation of WP:DE. I would have to think that calling someone an "outrageous hypocrite" is itself almost certainly a violation of WP:NPA, by the way, as you so clearly do above. Perhaps we are to take that as being an indication you are unable to understand the meaning of "personal attack"? John Carter (talk) 18:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

ChildofMidnight (talk · contribs) has been interjecting himself into disputes, pushing for the POV of Redheylin (talk · contribs) and supporting Redheylin in the prior ANI thread [35]. ChildofMidnight even went so far as to start a duplicate post at Wikipedia:Content noticeboard in support of Redheylin's POV - directly below a post I had just made at the same noticeboard [36]. This could have something to do with the fact that admin Georgewilliamherbert was one of the admins listed above that has warned Redheylin, and apparently ChildofMidnight does not like this particular admin [37]. In addition to Redheylin (talk · contribs), it would seem ChildofMidnight (talk · contribs) would also merit a warning regarding WP:NPA and WP:BATTLE. Cirt (talk) 18:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Here we go again with Cirt's accusations against those he disagrees with. I do not support Redheylin's views and I don't even know what they are fully. I've encouraged him and Cirt to use the dispute resolution process rather than ANI boards and accusations and counter accusations. When someone accuses someone else of doing something they themselves are doing that is by definition hypocrisy. And here again we see Cirt accusing me of something that isn't true after I've explained myself repeatedly (see my talk page). A block of Cirt and a desysop may be appropriate at this point. John Carter is involved and along with GWH has a long history of disruptive and unhelpful stoking the flames and side taking in this type of dispute. I encourage both of them to try to resolve disputes fairly and collegially instead of going after one side while failing to enforce the same standards on other parties (ie. their buddies). ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

But there are reasonable and acceptable terms which could be used instead of "hypocrisy", and you have yet completely and utterly failed to even offer a weak justification of the word "outrageous", which in context makes it a even more pronounced attack. I have to assume by failing to address that point you are in effect acknowledging misconduct. If that is so, the reasonable action to take would be to correct the mistake by removing it, rather than offering a rather self-serving defense of yourself. John Carter (talk) 19:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

When I quoted ChildofMidnight on his talk page:

"That's one of the reasons I didn't think it was important for me to read up on all the discussions, articles, and issues involved."

I pointed out to him that unless he reads discussions, articles and the issues involved, he's not really qualified to comment on those disputes and also he has not been asked to give input on these disputes it would be best if he stayed away from them. CoM, for your own good I would advise you to focus yourself on the articles you edit and the disputes related to those articles othewise what you're doing may be seen as disruption. It looks like you're ignoring all the diffs that Cirt has pointed out above which include comments about Redheylin's conduct from other editors. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 19:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Per WP:NPA I have amended the subtitle on this thread. Will not edit war if the poster wishes to restore the original wording, but please consider that a calm and factual expression of one's opinion is more likely to be persuasive. Durova³⁷¹ 19:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Requested block of User:ChildofMidnight

Please note that the above editor has engaged in further insults above after being given a final warning for blatant personal attacks. John Carter (talk) 19:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Diffs please? It should be noted that John Carter is involved and has a long history of disruptive and confrontational behavior that I have pointed out to him.

The irony of this whole outrageous thread is that Redheylin has moved on to other projects and the diffs are days old. I have no idea why Cirt is continuing his disruptive campaigning and battlefield behavior. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

• For the love of God/Buddha/FSM, yes - What this stems from is Cirt's issuance of warnings to ChildofMidnight months back, due to violations of Obama-article Arbcom restrictions. CoM has a long history in unrelated policy discussions of directing antagonism towards those that have had to use the stick against him in the past. Tarc (talk) 19:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Tarc was warned for his personal attacks and incivility related to the Obama articles. He was recently blocked for edit warring on those pages and has been trolling my contributions for a long time inserting himself in discussions where he has not involvement to pursue a vendetta. If John Carter and George William Herbert cared even a tiny bit about civility and stopping the battlefield disruption engaged in by POV warriors they would have put a stop to Tarc's behavior long ago. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Distortions and half-truths are very unbecoming of you, CoM. That ArbCom case gave a mild reminder to myself and several others to be a bit less snippy in edit summaries, that is all. Yes, 1 24h block (shortened to "time served" after ~15 or so) in several years of editing. I'll match that up against your checkered log any day. Finally, I have AN/I watchlisted, and contribute here regularly, there is no stalking. When you name pops up in a header, I'll certainly pop in to see what's up and provide evidence of your past transgressions and egregiously bad behavior as warranted. I have not done anything wrong by participating here, so please stop with the misdirection. Tarc (talk) 19:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

• CoM - please explain this edit. GiantSnowman 19:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Seems like a harmless edit conflict. Protonk (talk) 19:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
    • I didn't think edit conflicts happened that way, but fair enough. GiantSnowman 19:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
      • If the editor simply copy-pastes the entire bottom window to the top, they can. Also, even when I've picked out my edits to paste into the new version, I can sometimes delete the last contribution (when the last contribution was SineBot). --Thejadefalcon^{Sing your song}_{The bird's seeds} 19:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
        • That isn't what happened here. The last edit was by john carter, but protonk's comment is the one deleted. I've seen this happen as well, but its always undoing the last edit, not some random comment.--Crossmr (talk) 21:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
    • They do happen that way quite often. Eventually liquidthreads will obviate the problem. Protonk (talk) 19:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
      • What Proton said -- I've done this sort of thing myself without an edit conflict notice. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 22:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
• Support block of CoM or any other action to make him stop trying to solve people's disputes when he is not asked to give his input. Below he's asking for de-adminning of 3 admins. Only a block will solve this in my opinion, or a warning to stop. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 19:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
• Support block of CoM. Preferrably indefinite. Crafty (talk) 19:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
• Support permanent restriction of CoM to articles directly concerning food. CoM's presence on political and administrative pages is pure useless drama, and the same horns tooted over and over. PhGustaf (talk) 20:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose indef block, Support block of any other time period other than indef. I understand your position CoM but you have to learn that you butt-in in every ANI conversation. Especially if you are not involved or you don't not know what is going on. Im reluctant to support an indef block as he has not done anything harmful to the encyclopedia though.--Coldplay Expért ^{Let's talk} 19:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

If you're going to block for not knowing what's going on then you should start with yourself Coldplay. Your statement that I'm involved in "every" ANI thread is obviously ridiculous and false. I am very selective and most of my time is spent working on articles. I am well aware of the situation having been involved in the previous discussion and have tried to help the involved parties work through the dispute resolution process as the discussion on my talk page, the content noticeboard, and Redheylin's talk page indicate. It has been pointed out REPEATEDLY to Cirt that the dispute was over content and required no admin intervention. Cirt was asked REPEATEDLY to stop making bad faith accusations, yet he continues to go on the attack and to engage in disruption. I edit in good faith and I try to offer helpful comments. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Well I tried at least (watch him find a rollback mistake of mine and request my rollback be taken away) CoM If I were you I would tell the community that you are sorry and don't butt-in were your comments are not needed. PS im not an admin.--Coldplay Expért ^{Let's talk} 19:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

You wrote: "I understand your position CoM but you have to learn that you butt-in in every ANI conversation.". Thats what I've been trying to tell CoM on his talk as nicely as I could but it looks like this will end up in some kind of action since he's not stopping and he escalates disputes in his attempts to resolve them. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 19:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

"yet he continues to go on the attack and to engage in disruption" COM, please provide quotes, edit diff links, with dates here. Don't point to another page. Specific edit diffs, or your allegations may be dismissed by some. Ikip (talk) 19:02, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Support - I believe a substantial block of COM is called for. Calling for de-adminning three respected admins because he disagrees with their positions is disruptive, over-the-top drama that gives Wikipedia a black eye. Enough! Jusdafax 19:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose - un-officially calling for the firing of 3 administrators, isn't worth an indef-block. GoodDay (talk) 21:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

  No one said it would be an indef block. The question is whether something should be done. This poll wont go anywhere though, like most consensus seeking ventures on WP, but hopefully this will bring a change in CoM and Redheylin's conduct because now they know that a number of editors would like to see that change. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 22:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - this is one of the best content editors on wikipedia. --William S. Saturn (talk) 21:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

• Content creation is not a license to freely make personal attacks and harass. This is like saying it's right to pardon people like Bernie Maddoff simply because they're educated. -FASTILY ^(TALK) 05:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Endorse-he seems to call for desysops everytime he's in a tiff with an admin. Good content editor or not, disruptive behavior is uncalled for. Heironymous Rowe (talk) 21:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

• I do not know who ChildofMidnight is or how s/he became involved, but I do know that others on the ANI page agreed with me (see the talk-page barnstar) that this editor has mediated with kindness, good faith, good humour and accuracy here, and it is getting ever harder to avoid the conclusion that it is these very qualities that have caused these present attacks.

• In order to forestall any penalty - such as would be in my view an injustice brought about partly by myself - it is only decent that I offer this forum myself to resign for any decided period from wiki-editing. I know the worth of my contributions, I have nothing but contempt for anything and anyone that seeks to prevent or disrupt dedicated, good-faith editing in pursuit of narrow points of view, but if wikipedia cannot find a consensus of contributors able to see this matter in such a light, I prefer to resign rather than be responsible for the blocking of an editor who, without previous contact or article-involvement and without any obvious rancour towards any other party, but rather the opposite, has offered such a high standard of contribution on this page. Take this as oppose, I suppose. Redheylin (talk) 21:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

  Going by what an editor and his buddies say about him on his talk page is just about the worst way one can form a judgment about an editor's actions. A better and more objective place to start would be Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Obama articles. Tarc (talk) 21:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

"Going by what an editor and his buddies say about him on his talk page is just about the worst way one can form a judgment about an editor's actions." - I said "this shows (and the present page shows) that I am not alone in the first impression I got". Somehow what I said must have got twisted in your mind - maybe it's something to do with Obama - I do not care. I am simply saying, I prefer to go myself than have another editor blocked for what seems to me clear-headed, mediative wikipedianism. And that stands: that is my offer. Redheylin (talk) 22:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose . Calling for excessive blocks against editors in this way is plain silly. This whole drama should be closed, there is nothing actually going on here, one editor disagrees with another editors standpoint and a bit of adult communication has occurred, but there has been nothing excessive here... (imo). Off2riorob (talk) 21:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment- I would only say that, as the originator of this thread, I never gave an indication of the time span of the block I proposed, and I actually have no real agreement with the lengthy periods proposed above. However, I can and do believe engaging in blatant personal attacks, as this editor has repeatedly done, on noticeboards no less, has to receive some degree of sanction. John Carter (talk) 22:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

@Off2riorob. And what good will that solve anything? This only puts off the problem for later (sort of like how the US congress was putting off the healthcare debate for so long) and inevitably, we will have to deal with it. CoM's track record is strongly suggestive this will only happen again if it runs unchecked. -FASTILY ^(TALK) 05:35, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Please no, everyone. This whole drama is not productive. Blocking one of our best creators of interesting new articles from namespace is not going to help the project, nor is continuing this whole bruhaha. Let's go back to working on articles, please. Jonathunder (talk) 23:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

  Even the good editors (Betacommand, ScienceApologist, Ottava) don't get a free pass in the end for their uncivil disruptions. Giving a simply prolific editor a free pass for the same would be setting the bar quite a bit lower for acceptable behavior. Tarc (talk) 04:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose block. While the editor was, on one occasion in the past, rather impolite to me, the editor: (a) respected my request to stop; (b) seemsto try to be genuinely civil (although more success in this regard would be better); (c) is a very productive editor. Regarding the last point, it is my understanding that the issue of productivity vs. civility is an open ArbCom discussion (albeit regarding another editor) - until this issue is resolved (and policy updated), I think it fair to give productivity some weight in deliberation of blocks. I wish established editors, who should know better, would be nicer to other editors, but acknowledge that WP:AGF is really hard, sometimes - I'm assuming that something other than blocks and bans can lead to improvements in general civility. Cheers, --4wajzkd02 (talk) 23:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
• comment can someone point me to the policy page where it says if you're productive you're allowed to ignore other polices and guidelines?--Crossmr (talk) 00:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I was referring to this situation. --4wajzkd02 (talk) 01:00, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

which is an extraordinary circumstance involving the second most productive editor last year, who is not under prior ArbCom sanctions, as CoM is. There are remarkable differences between the two. John Carter (talk) 01:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

"not under prior ArbCom sanctions" - fair enough. My understanding from that case, however, was that ArbCom is considering some response to the appearance that contributions can trump civility requirements. I would like there to be some clear mandate on this (and I am in favor of rules applying equally to everyone) - but my view of reality is that the rules don't apply equally to everyone right now. --4wajzkd02 (talk) 01:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

While ArbCom may be considering such sanctions in that particular case, that is not necessarily reason to believe that they would necessarily be extended beyond that case. Also, as that is an existing case, and likely to be resolved fairly soon, even an indefinite block, which as I have now said I would myself oppose, could very likely be shortened by that ruling. I really don't think it makes sense to not act on the basis of current problems because of something ArbCom is factually only considering in one other extant case. John Carter (talk) 01:49, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, block The whole point of a final warning is that if the user does not stop violating the policy after a final warning they get a block, that is why we call them final warnings. When we give a final warning and the disruptive behavior continues we need to follow through. Civility is simply not optional, and nobody has ever gotten consensus that it should not be blockable, or that contributors of content should get a free ride. I hope this discussion is read by the acting admin in light of policy and not as a head count. ^Chillum 01:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose idenfinitely blocking per User:A_Nobody#Favorite_userpages on which the subject is listed and as he has largely been nice to me. Please note, I am not condoning incivility or personal attacks and strongly urge that all involved refrain from any such edits, but it seems unseemly for me to speak (write) against someone who likes basset hounds and has generally been nice to me. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 01:35, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

It's silly to ignore the obvious just because you like their userpage. This isn't a very productive edit. Nja²⁴⁷ 07:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

This is "silly." As for anything else, I see nothing "obvious." I am not going to endorse blocking someone who has generally been good to me as that would be a bit of back stab. I do not turn on those who have treated me well per The Golden Rule. Take care. --A Nobody^{My talk} 00:55, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment Seriously guys, this has gotten way out of hand. Either we block him or we dont. I cant belive that Im going to say this but I agree with Tan here. This Drama has got to stop.--Coldplay Expért ^{Let's talk} 01:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• I tend to agree, particularly considering the somewhat unusual nature of several of the comments here. I note that people have repeatedly opposed only an indefinite block, which I myself, the originator of this thread also oppose by the way, but that those other comments are made in such a way as to give the appearance of being opposed to any block. Like I said, I don't think an indefinite block is called for. I was myself thinking of something along the spectrum of 1 week to 1 month. If I had meant an indefinite block, I would have specified that. I did not state any terms because I did not think under the circumstances I should be the one to suggest them. I should also note that my own suggestions are not necessarily binding to the rest of you either. Perhaps in this way delimiting the terms we might be able to stop the extremist posts and actually reach some sort of solution to this matter. John Carter (talk) 01:44, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Usually, where a duration is unstated, the assumption is indef, regardless of the type of sanction. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

---

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,--Coldplay Expért ^{Let's talk} 01:57, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Support 1 week block--Coldplay Expért ^{Let's talk} 01:57, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose block ChildofMidnight is an excellent contributor to wikipedia. Just because a few people dislike some of his actions does not justify preventing this exceptionally fine editor from improving the encyclopedia. Wikipedia would be much worse off if the block happens. Grundle2600 (talk) 03:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

  So because I've made a few edits, you would be okay with me calling you an idiot or leveling other kinds of insults or attacks in your direction because I disagree with you?--Crossmr (talk) 05:17, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

  I'd be okay with you saying those things, regardless of how many edits you had made in the past. I certainly wouldn't want you blocked or banned. Grundle2600 (talk) 06:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Support Block for a week. Clearly does not know how to handle dealing with other users. A8UDI 03:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Given the thread below, perhaps an ANI topic ban would be a more targeted solution to the problem.   Will Beback  talk  04:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose block of ChildofMidnight. ChildofMidnight received a Diplomacy barnstar from respected mediator and admin Atama for his earlier attempt to mediate in this dispute. Half an hour later, he was repeatedly accused by Cirt of "interjecting" himself at User_talk:ChildofMidnight#Why_are_you_pushing_this_so_hard.3F and of taking Cirt's opponent's side. --JN466 04:12, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

  Well, that kind of sums up ChildofMidnight's approach to editing; he can be productive and sugary sweet in one forum, and then positively vile and destructive only minutes later in another venue. This good hand/bad hand approach is the epitome of disruptive. Tarc (talk) 04:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

  That is a bizarre comment, given that Atama's and Cirt's comments related to the same actions by CoM; what Atama praised as diplomacy, Cirt castigated as "interjecting". Go figure. --JN466 04:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose Of his last 500 edits, I count 44 AN/I edits, with the majority of the remaineder being front page edits on numerous articles. Blocking an editor because you disagree with, at most, less than 10% of his activity is counter-productive and unnecessarily harsh. If CoM's AN/I contributions are a problem, then a reminder should suffice, especially for such a prodigious content creator. Throwaway85 (talk) 04:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
• Powerful Support Indef. - _{Boeing7107isdelicious|SPRiCh miT meineN PiloteN} 04:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
• Strong Endorse, unfortunately. Child of Midnight has been given more than enough chances, and yet is granted amnesty each time. CoM is undoubtedly familiar with our core policies and despite the ridiculous number of blocks, continues to repeatedly flaunt our policies, particularity when there are opportunities for drama mongering. Why, how many ANI threads bearing CoM's name are there? 10, 15, 20? It's almost as if this user is above Wikipedia's policies! We're here to build an encyclopedia, not make drama. Wikipedia is not meant to be, and was never meant to be a "4chan" or "Encyclopedia Drammatica". -FASTILY ^(TALK) 05:21, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

In what way do CoM's edits make WP a 4chan or ED? I'm sorry, but I'm just not following your assertion. Throwaway85 (talk) 06:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Strong support. CoM can be lovely one moment and vile the next - the work he's done with a "lovely" persona should not exclude his vileness. Ironholds (talk) 10:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment Perhaps a topic ban-like what MoP suggested-would be a better idea. Unless it is an obvious breech in policy (Editwaring, Uncivility ect), CoM cannot be engaged in ANI disscussions unless he himself is affected or under discussion.--Coldplay Expért ^{Let's talk} 11:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Comment Actually all that is needed is that ANI discussions initiated by the user and specifically found meritless may then be followed by a one week block ... so this is an oppose as presented. Overkill is not warranted. Collect (talk) 13:02, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

  Initiated by who, CoM himself? As far as I can recall, he never has initiated a discussion in these parts. The disruption stems from his participation in the threads of others, most notably when he hounds admins who have taken action against him in the past. Tarc (talk) 13:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

  • I think that is in reference to the now closed (as presumably baseless?) and collaposed request to have myself, Cirt, and Georgewilliamherbert desysoped. Granted, in this case I might be prejudiced, but I'm not sure I myself would necessaarily agree with the proposal in all instances, as it would potentially have a quite chilling effect on newcomers to the boards, but am not so sure that it might not be an appropriate option to have available for more experienced editors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Carter (talk • contribs)

    • Ahh, ok, I had been considering it in terms of a completely new filing and not just an extension of an existing one as he did here. I was getting more at CoM's habit of always complaining about the alleged "abuse" and whgatnot that he claims to have suffered from others, and I have invited him on numerous occasions to either make a full filing here, or WQA, or RfC, etc...and he never does, claiming that diff-hunting is too much effort. And speaking of the below section, I have rehatted it as CoM has 2 or 3 times now re-opened it. I am fairly sure that the entiure sub-section has been deemed disruptive and pointy on his part, so if CoM opens it again, there may be grounds for action there too. (Also I tagged your reply with an unsigned template, feel free to remove that and put a real sig if you wish). Tarc (talk) 17:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

      My "~" key has been having intermittent problems lately, so it might be a good idea to have it on record somewhere. John Carter (talk) 18:45, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose community blocks of established editors are always suspect, I see them usually as an easy way to silence critics. If these editors have a problem, take it to RFC. Calling for three admins to be desopyed? Big deal. I might not agree with what COM said, but these kind of threats happen all the time, whether it be threats of arbcom, RFC, desop, etc., etc. When the community continues to have contrasting punishment for editors, the community loses faith in Wikipedia to treat all editors fairly. Ikip (talk) 18:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
• Support: 1 week block. Looks like another Giano II scenario with lots of user edits which divides the masses between "he's a fine editor" and the rest would like to see some action on the misconduct and believe that there's no justification for inappropriate conduct (as everyone is pointing out above). --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 19:29, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose block/Support WP:DR It's very hard for me to support blocking anyone with an adorable picture of a basset hound on their user page. In all seriousness, a block isn't going to solve the problem here and might drive away a prolific content contributor. What we need is something a little more tailored to the user, and AN/I is a terrible forum for crafting nuanced remedies. RfCs can be dramafests but might be a good forum for letting CoM know what areas he needs to improve in. Arbitration might not be a bad idea either. AniMate 19:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

  Well, let me put a kitten on my page and see what I can call you. For the sake of completeness, I support a block because I happen to be wearing a white shirt right now. I mean how can I not support a block while I'm wearing a white shirt. Prolific content contributor doesn't give him a pass to do whatever he wants.--Crossmr (talk) 21:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose block, support opening a Request for Comment. I agree with AniMate's thinking here. A block simply will do no good, and it would have no immediate effect in terms of preventing further disruption since disruption does not seem to be ongoing. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/ChildofMidnight remains a red link. On a couple of other occasions I have expressed my willingness to participate in an RfC regarding this user, so long as a couple of others were willing to assist in its preparation/certification. I have tried on multiple occasions in the past to resolve some of these problems with C of M to no avail (though not so much recently), which I think would give me standing to co-certify an RfC. Clearly many see some problems here, and an RfC (while I agree they can be dramafests) seems like the best way to gauge how the community feels and offer some constructive feedback and criticism. I don't think it's appropriate to jump right to ArbCom at this point when an RfC has not been attempted. As I said I'm quite willing to help get this going, but don't want to dive into a lengthy process without knowing that the RfC will be able to be certified by enough people. Feel free to contact me on my talk page if you'd be interested in working on that (obviously these should be editors who have tried and failed to resolve issues/disputes with C of M per whatever the exact rules for user conduct RfCs are). --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 20:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
• If I may ask, what are the specific edits on the basis of which a block is called for here? While I am aware that ChildofMidnight has been a problematic editor in several respects previously, it's not very clear what he's believed to have done wrong here. Calling for admins to be desysopped? Making silly demands is not sufficient grounds for blocking an editor.  Sandstein  21:44, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
  • As some point we simply get into straw territory; if this were an isolated incident, it'd probably be nothing. But as I pointed out in CoM's hopefully WP:Plaxico topic below, we are talking about and editor whose talk page once looked like this. Haven't we reached the enough is enough point yet? Tarc (talk) 22:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose - Agree with William S. Saturn and others. ^Izzedine 07:16, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment to any admin that might be reading this for any clear cut signs of a consensus. Seeing that since the relisting, the desision is tied 7-7 I would mark this as "no concensus" since there is no concensus, I guess that were all going to have to wait for CoM to do the same thing again before decideing whether or not to block/topic ban him.--Coldplay Expért ^{Let's talk} 11:44, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

• Comment: this is pure class, does no one have a sense of humour? I don't vote, even when I do have suffrage. Good luck CoM, I salute you! Alastair Haines (talk) 12:30, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
• (ec)Blocks are supposed to be preventative, not punitive, therefore I do not believe that one would be appropriate in this instance, and an indef could be a net loss to the encyclopaedia becuase, as has been pointed out above, CoM is a fine content contributor. I would recommend this discussion be taken to an RfC (per Bigtimepeace, who, as ever, articulately puts across a very sensible suggestion). I would also suggest, perhaps as an alternative, that CoM voluntarily take a long weekend to regain perspective and, on his return, try to keep his head down, stay out of trouble (no calling for desysoppings, no confrontation, no incivility) and focus his energies elsewhere than ANI. Hopefully that would lead to this being the last ANI thread about this editor which seems to be the objective of almost all here. HJMitchell You rang? 12:40, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Since there is a history and no evidence he's going to stop, it would be preventative, I'm still waiting for someone to show me the policy where it shows how many good contributions you can trade in to ignore other policies.--Crossmr (talk) 16:34, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Requested desysop of Cirt, GWH, and John Carter

This discussion has been archived. Please do not modify it.
The following is an archived debate. Please do not modify it.
Popcorn? The extraordinarily disruptive and confrontational approach to editing taken by these admins is inconsistent with our civility policy and our core values. I think some sort of action may be warranted to rein in their behavior, especially in light of the loss of so many content contributors. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:08, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Anyone else? Protonk (talk) 19:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I've had some complaints about your comments in the past Protonk, but I haven't seen anything too outrageous from you recently. In fact I agreed with you on a subject recently, which came as something of a surprise to me (sorry I can't remember off the top of my head what it was). So keep up the good work. I'm optimistic that you may be on the right track going forward. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC) CoM, I think you're going overboard now and perhaps need some kind of disciplinary action to make you realize you're on the wrong path. None of these admins has involved themselves in any objectionable behavior. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 19:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC) CoM is also failing to follow even basic etiquette now, such as well, notifying at least me of my being the subject to a thread here. My terms of desysoping are quite straightforward. I have said I will ask an uninvolved administrator to review the actions in question and go by their judgement. I am therefore asking User:Protonk to review the complaint. Nor did CoM give notice to Cirt of Georgewilliamherbert, or even give the latter of even using his full name. I have now myself rectifed that clear violation of etiquette, considering CoM apparently had no interest in doing so. John Carter (talk) 19:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC) You're not aware of this thread? You just left me a note about it on my talk page. Is this type of dishonest behavior allowed from admins? I don't think I'm going overboard at all. I think this type of outrageous conduct is why we are losing so many content contributors and why have so many disgruntled editors. This is a content dispute that was over and it's been reinflamed by Cirt's relentless battlefield campaigning. His accusations and assumptions of bad faith against me are almost as bad as Tarc's. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC) It is basic courtesy' to at least notify people that you are requesting that they be desysoped. Although you had the time to post the above comment, you apparently didn't think it worth notifying either Cirt or Georgewilliamherbert of this request. I think I'll let your own choice of actions speak here. John Carter (talk) 19:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Please refactor your false statement. You're certainly making my case for me that you're not well suited to possess administrative tools. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC) A big ol' YAWN - directed at this entire thread. Can we all move on now? Tan | 39 19:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Wowsers, these are the most simultanious calls for indef blocks, blocks & deseysops, I've ever seen. GoodDay (talk) 19:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC) In response to the allegation that I made a false statement, I note this quote from the top of the page: "You must notify any user that you discuss." CoM gave no such notice. I also note that Protonk has declined to review my actions. I therefore request any uninvolved admin seeing this thread to do so. I will abide by that decision. John Carter (talk) 19:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I already requested that you refactor your false statement once, and instead of doing so you now repeat it. I notified the editor who wasn't aware of the thread and I'm happy to provide a diff if necessary. Please refactor both your false statements pronto and cease your disruptive and civility violating behavior. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I'm closing this entire thread. This has degenerated into mud-slinging, finger-pointing and bickering. Nothing useful is happening. Tan | 39 19:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC) (edit conflict) CoM, I can read times just as well as anyone. John Carter made his "false statement" at 19:16. You notified Georgewilliamherbert at 19:22. We all make mistakes and you'll find people will be less annoyed at you if you own up to them. --ThejadefalconSing your songThe bird's seeds 19:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I haven't been involved at all here and don't know what it's about. But I just felt the need to comment on the demand for notification: I believe that courtesy only applies to editors who weren't already participating in a given thread. John appears to have been aware of this thread already, having commented within it. I don't really think admonishing CoM for not notifying him is warranted, and probably goes to show how much this thread has deteriorated into a slugfest on all sides. Equazcion (talk) 19:56, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) (sorry, I conflicted with the closing -- feel free to move it into the collapse) Equazcion (talk) 19:58, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) My statement was made on the basis of a new discussion taking place regarding me, and Cirt, and Georgewilliamherbert, specifically calling for us to be desysoped. It has been my understanding, perhaps erroneous, that if one were to start such a discussion, even as a subthread of a thread of which they were already aware, that, considering they themselves were not the subject of the prior thread, that the courtesy ruling extended there too. To my eyes, that would be the logical call in cases such as these, because even if one had commented on one section before, that does not mean that they would necessarily think to return to that page, particularly if they were involved in doing something else which might cause them to miss the discussion. If I am wrong in that, I apologize. And I do note, after the fact, that CoM did give Georgewilliamherbert some apparent indication that he was to be desysoped, although inclusion of that notice in such a literally parenthetical way made it at least to me unclear whether that were a warning of a request or a reference to a previous discussion calling for that desysoping. I apologize for my misunderstanding of that matter, but, if anyone does see this discussion, think it might be a good idea to amend the top of the page to indicate that notice should be given any time a new thread regarding an individual, or subthread in which they are themselves not clearly named as a party, would be a good idea. John Carter (talk) 20:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC) That'd be some major WP:CREEP. Erring on the side of over-notification is of course the best idea, probably, but my point was that it wasn't so clearcut an underhanded or negligent tactic as to warrant being admonished, is all. It more seems like you were peeved for other reasons (probably understandable) and tacked this on. No offense intended, I might've reacted similarly in this situation. Equazcion (talk) 20:35, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC) Closed due to nothing useful taking place. Start an RfC or go edit an article, one of the two. Tan | 39 19:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Actually, the first bit of it makes sense. Leave it for a bit to see if something good comes of it (Wikipedia might get a bit more drama but then the BBC hasn't suffered for that).  GARDEN  20:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC) Agree with Garden, believe Tan jumped the gun on closing this thread. Jusdafax 20:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC) When this finally fizzles out, please ping me with any useful resolutions that occur as a result of this bullshit. I won't hold my breath. Tan | 39 20:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC) This particular subsection should be closed, yes. Quibbling about who notified who when is getting a bit pedantic, and a call by the subject of the previous section for desysops of admins he has disagreements with is beyond disruptive. More eyes should be on "Requested block of User:ChildofMidnight", which has not seen a single oppose (other than an oppose of just the indef part). Tarc (talk) 21:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I think I have already made clear what I think of these editors and the way they use their admin powers. Redheylin (talk) 22:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I agree with Tan. Let me know if something useful comes of this thread. Protonk (talk) 22:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC) I'd suggest that what might come out of it that would be useful would be a system of sanctions against using ANI and other such pages as a means of disruption, so that wanton, disruptive, mischievous or POV-based actions would be subject to sanction without further action, and that this would particularly extend to admins who work in packs, who engage in baiting, side-taking, gang-buddyism and summary threats, with the ready possibility of sysop suspension at least. Otherwise these pages just become a sophisticated means of edit-warring that removes the debate from the subject of the article, which is clearly to the advantage of the weaker argument, and replaces it with lawyering, policy manipulation, dirty tricks and lynch-mob mentality, encouraging time-wasting argumentation at the expense of what we're supposedly here to do. To those who habitually represent this kind of sentiment as a "personal attack" - you know what to do. Redheylin (talk) 01:53, 3 December 2009 (UTC) It's okay, CoM. When I was new I was way overly arrogant and headstrong. You'd be better if you take a deep breath... take a break for a few days.. realize no one is perfect, and assume good faith by just being nice and not jumping the gun to demand sysopping perfectly fine admins. k? :) A8UDI 11:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Since this has come up, it's worth documenting that Cirt made two mistakes with regard to a top 15% journal Adamantius stubbed by a reliable editor: he closed a deletion discussion as delete, without there being evidence or consensus for such a decision; and when this was drawn to his attention he made personal attacks rather than seeking information. The results of Cirt's unwillingness to countenance an error on his own part have inevitably been obstruction and disharmony.

A fragile ego is not a crime deserving desysopping, though.

Cirt needs pressure taken off him so that he feels confident to be able to apologize, while keeping his credibility. Everyone makes mistakes, disharmony results when there is too much fear to leave space for apology. There is altogether too much drama at this page. I'm glad I don't use it, we've all got books to read and summarise for a hungry public.

Cheerio. Alastair Haines (talk) 13:07, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

For a review of my deletion closure in that AFD please see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2009 November 15 (Decision endorsed). For documentation of disruption by Alastair Haines (talk · contribs) involving the same article, please see [38]. Cirt (talk) 13:12, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Precisely. Still no apology. Still being obstructive and divisive, Cirt (I should add on this specific matter only).

The journal is peer-reviewed, and reviews by third parties are indexed.

A discussion that salts without seeking those facts is empty. It proves my point exactly.

People should never have been asked to share ignorance on the subject. Alastair Haines (talk) 15:25, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I support, but did not act, to salt the page. The protecting of Adamantius (journal) was done by admin Jayron32 (talk · contribs), and this shows why. Cirt (talk) 15:27, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I can't see the "this", Cirt. I do hope it is not defamatory. A personal attack on a proven reliable editor is never a good idea.

Whatever it is, it is not a reliable source regarding the notability of the journal, because that has only one answer.

Reliable sources create consensus, making decisions without them is an attempt to circumvent them.

I trust you won't attempt that again when I recreate the article. Alastair Haines (talk) 15:40, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed: Redheylin topic banned from Cirt

Preamble: I don't think anything remotely good is coming from this sequence of events.

Proposal:

1. Redheylin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has engaged in sustained disruption regarding Administrator Cirt. Redheylin is henceforth topic banned, interpreted broadly, from User:Cirt - may not respond to comments on Wikipedia, leave user talk page comments, mention, file ANI reports on, or revert article content changes by Cirt. Redheylin is not banned from common articles but must use dilligence to avoid responding to or confronting Cirt. This administrative sanction shall last for 90 days after enactment.
2. Administrator User:Cirt is deemed an involved party and requested to disengage equally on-wiki from Redheylin, without finding of fault.

• Proposed - Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose For posterity's sake, if this course of action is to be proposed then it should not be proposed by one of the parties named in the initial complaint. Throwaway85 (talk) 03:22, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

A. I'm not involved in the original complaint - Redheylin is upset with me for having intervened in the original complaint as an uninvolved administrator and attempting to resolve it; per WP:UNINVOLVED this specifically does not cause an admin to become involved and disqualified from actions. I have nothing to do with the content dispute that initiated this.

B. Anyone, even involved parties, can propose a community response.

C. As a community proposal, I'm not using any administrator powers to do anything here, anyways.

Do you believe that this is truly not past the time at which we need to disengage the parties who are butting heads? Do you believe that anything but further disruption will follow from these two continuing to interact on-wiki? If you believe that their relationship will suddenly become collegial and productive, working towards consensus, that's a perfectly great reason to oppose. But I believe the alternative is not only likely but obviously already true.

Oppose if you want more of this - or you think less will come from another better approach, but not for that reason, please. Think it through. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. The issue of disruption by Redheylin (talk · contribs) stems from his involvement in the topic of articles related to Rajneesh movement and the movement's deceased guru Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh; it is not tied to any one editor and will likely persist under this remedy and shift to disruption of the articles engaging with other editors. Cirt (talk) 03:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose and remove Cirt's admin tools.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 03:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. If there has been provocation, it is certainly not a one-way street. See Talk:Alford_plea. --JN466 03:45, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be indicating there that this goes back to bad blood between Cirt and you and others in the latest Arbcom case on Scientology... This does not make sense as a reason to avoid separating the parties now. If anything it seems to argue more strongly for it... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:04, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Wait... according to evidence in the last Scientology case you're another of the Osho followers, Jayen. Is that true? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

How is this Arbcom case going to apply itself to this proposal of yours?--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 04:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Previously arbcom sanctioned editors showing up here without prior involvement, who are personally involved in the topic (Osho / Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh ) which seems to actually underly the dispute, seems to provide strong evidence for Cirt's comment above that this is not tied to any editor but is a group activity by Rajneesh followers. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:35, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

George, to the best of my recollection, the only editors to have commented here and to have been parties to WP:ARBSCI are Will Beback, Cirt, John Carter and I. Will and Cirt presented evidence against me at ARBSCI, and John Carter supported me. John Carter and I were, more recently, in broad agreement at the Matisse arbcom case, and generally get along well. Will and I have our ups and downs, but he knows that I respect him as an editor, and he has been kind enough once or twice to say the same about me. This dispute is not about any fault lines left over from ARBSCI. --JN466 04:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you denying the claims made in the ARBSCI case that you are a member of the Rajneesh movement? Arbcom made a finding of fact citing Rick Ross' claim to that effect, and your rejoinder to Ross did not acknowledge or deny that part of the claim. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I do deny that. For your information, I could cite you diffs where I have been accused of being a follower of Prem Rawat and of Scientology as well. --JN466 04:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

In response to Jayen's comment about ARBSCI, there is one other editor from that case who has commented here: the filing party; myself. In order to avoid appearance of partiality I have commented only procedurally. It is an example which, in good faith, might be best if others also followed. Durova³⁷¹ 06:43, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Cirt's a hardworking, detailed, resourceful article writer, as I've said many times. I for my part have done a great deal of work on "Indian" articles, including recategorising all Indian music, providing illustrations, maintaining a watchlist and rewriting quite a few major articles such as Kabir panth, Meera, Ravidas, Kaula, Saiva Siddhanta and a dozen more. Indian religion has its share of factions and fanaticisms, but the record shows thousands of my edits on dozens of articles and very little friction. I am sorry to say I have found it impossible to reach consensus with Cirt, who seems to find a "personal attack" in every issue raised. I am absolutely capable of conciliation but, like Jayen and every other editor I've seen working on this group of articles, find myself in cases like this time after time, find myself reverted, insulted or met with blank denial. Perhaps it is a failure of mine also - we talk straight and blunt where I come from and won't be bullied - but I can neither negotiate nor walk away from articles that, according to my lights, are being subjected to a strongly negative POV. From my own view, with my own wiki history, I'd welcome any kind of oversight or mediation that achieved balanced articles, constantly improving by consensus. I am sorry, though, but I cannot perceive myself as solely to blame for this affair, and all the admins of wiki and all the blocks they can block cannot change that. However, if a way can be found to achieve harmony without abandoning the said articles to a single editor's viewpoint, I think you'll find me very tractable indeed, because I believe in what I am doing just as much as the other guy. When we are both working for the same goal.... so I'd ask for a more balanced summary of this affair, and, if I show impatience or even contempt, I apologise: I do not mean any offence, I do not have any POV to push, I just want a better wiki and a modicum of civility on the side. Thanks. Redheylin (talk) 04:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose: Redheylin has been saying things (diffs above are evidence) that a number of people have objected to. Cirt on the other hand has never engaged in personal attacks or undesirable behavior as far as I know for the little time I've known him. Thats why Cirt was able to collect diffs as evidence against Redheylin while I bet no one can do the same for Cirt. I came new into this whole Osho related business only a few days ago. I was impressed by Cirt's constant patience while dealing with Redheylin and Off2riorob and even Jayen in the old days ([39]). I suggest we give 2 or 3 more weeks to Redheylin and see if things are still the same as before. If they are, then it would be time to file an RfC and go from there. Cirt should not be punished by disallowing him to talk to Redheylin about Osho-related articles because they both edit these articles. Its Redheylin who has to improve his conduct. Red its simple: stay focused on the article, not the editor. See how Cirt does it. People have been editing controversy related articles with differing viewpoints for a long time and it can be done. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 05:17, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose sanction as presented. This is not about Cirt and Redheylin, but about Rajneesh. Any attempt to institute this ban would be counterproductive, because it would, basically, be completely dependent on the level of Cirt's activity involving that content at any given time. There are ways to deal effectively with matters like this. One is to call in other editors who deal with religion. I think I got involved because of Cirt's doing that, myself being an active religion editor. Should that fail, in all honesty, either an RfC or formal mediation would have a much better chance of effectiveness, and, with any luck, much less rancor. "Straight and blunt speaking" and its equivalents are as often as not used as euphemisms for other things which have policy or guideline pages named after them. Cirt has probably been subjected to more harrasment than most any of us for his contributions to wikipedia, includinhg off-wiki harrassment, and I can and do understand how it might give him, at times, a quick trigger finger. I'm not saying this is one of those times, however. I haven't reviewed the matter to that degree. In all honesty, I think the best approach in this instance would be for both to disengage for a while, maybe file an RfC or mediation on whatever they decide the core disagreement is, and go on from there. ALternately, if there were any sort of way of offering potential sanctions to any disruptive editors in discussions relating to the subject of Osho/Rajneesh, that would probably be more effective. John Carter (talk) 14:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Re: Jayen's "Yes, I do deny that", why then do you still use your sanyassin title? how come you don't make a statement about this on your user page (like Jalal). From information I see online, you left the movement following a leadership rift, (Keerti V Osho Foundation International?) can you clarify this for us? I think it would be helpful to know exactly where you stand on this matter. Semitransgenic (talk) 14:20, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

How is this question relevant to the thread itself, please? If it is not directly relevant, would it be asking too much to have the discussion taken elsewhere? John Carter (talk) 15:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Jayen466

In the above section, Jayen466 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) denied being a member of the Rajneesh organization. Quoting:

Are you denying the claims made in the ARBSCI case that you are a member of the Rajneesh movement? Arbcom made a finding of fact citing Rick Ross' claim to that effect, and your rejoinder to Ross did not acknowledge or deny that part of the claim. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I do deny that. For your information, I could cite you diffs where I have been accused of being a follower of Prem Rawat and of Scientology as well. --JN466 04:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Subsequent to that denial, I was emailed a set of links for web content which contradicts that assertion, or at least shows that it was materially misleading. These links include:

• Here at the ex-site website, he says that he was out of contact with his family for some time while a member original google translation
• This google groups post to the Caravansarai group.
• This thread at Rebellious Spirit, titled "Nishkam: Sannyas persecutions in France".

I told Jayen on his talk page, referencing those URLs, that they seemed to establish that he had in fact been a member and asked him to clarify or restate his position; he deleted the question without comment, with TW. I asked again, saying that I would leave the URLs off but that I felt that he really did have to answer the question, as there was now credible evidence on hand that he had misled ANI. He again deleted without comment. I stopped activity on his talk page at that point, as repeatedly continuing to repost deleted requests on user talk pages is specifically listed as harrassment. He still has not answered in the last several hours.

I believe that these, most specifically the "ex-site" link, demonstrate that there is credible cause to believe that Jayen466 was at one time a member of Osho's organization, at the time known as the Rajneesh movement. There is some sense in those links and others that Jayen is no longer a member; however, I believe that his answer above was materially misleading, in that it denied a connection which is still close enough for our conflict of interest policy to apply, and was materially misleading regarding the subthread's key question, as to whether Rajneesh connected accounts were ganging together to participate in the ANI discussion.

WP:CIVIL states in part ( Wikipedia:CIVIL#Identifying incivility 2.c. ) that other incivil behaviors includes "lying to mislead, including deliberately asserting false information;". Jayen has been editing here long enough (3+ years, 20,000 plus edits) enough to know that by now. He also was subject to a specific (non-Scientology, general cult critic) article / topic ban by Arbcom in the latest Scientology arbcom case, relative to allegations Jayen was involved with the Rajneesh movement, and that he was editing with a conflict of interest and disruptively pushing an agenda on that page.

The evidence is not perfect, but it's persuasive to me. I can no longer AGF.

I don't quite know what to do - We expect our longtime contributors to be doing so honestly and without gross deception. This appears to breach the communities trust by lying to us above, a specifically policy-listed uncivil behavior, and grossly breach the WP:COI guidelines over an extended period of time by denying that a conflict existed.

I would like to request uninvolved admin and general community review and input. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:07, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Georgewilliamherbert, I made a full disclosure to arbcom about what history I have with the Osho movement, more than a year ago. I do not have to justify myself to you.

I have also openly discussed this history several times on-wiki. There is no need for you to post links to Internet discussions, in a blatant abuse of my privacy, to make your point. Osho died 20 years ago; I am 30 years older than I was when I first heard of him. Believe me, I have grown up a little since then.

This is, as I said, a blatant abuse of my privacy. I am discussing family relationships and my father's death at one of these links. I will be asking for you to be desysopped.--JN466 02:38, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Let me make it once more clear to you: I am not a member of the Rajneesh movement. I don't regret the time when I was such a member, over 25 years ago, but it is not my lifestyle now, and it has not been for a long time. --JN466 02:49, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Semitransgenic, given that you received a warning by Will Beback in January for a very similar outing incident, am I correct in assuming that you supplied these links to Georgewilliamherbert? --JN466 02:43, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

The warning I gave to Semitransgenic, IIRC, concerned disclosing an editor's RL name. This matter seems different. If I post personal information under "Will Beback" on public website then it's publicly available and linking to those postings wouldn't be outing. The links that Georgewilliamherbert has posted all concern accounts with username "Jayen466", so I don't see how this information is outing. Osho (Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh) has been a contentious topic, and you have been extensively involved in editing it, having made more than 1300 out of a total of fewer than 3200 edits to that article. WP:COI calls on editors to make suitable disclosures if they are actively engaged in editing. The Rajneesh movement has always been relatively small, so far as I'm aware, and it's new so this is not comparable to editors who belong to large, established religious movements. If you prefer to maintain your privacy about your past or current involvement in this topic then it'd be best if you avoided editing it in the future. Having dealt with the user:Jossi's deep conflicts, and his disruptive refusal to recognize them, I think the community has recognizes that it's hard to be neutral in topics that one feels strongly about. If this matter is so sensitive that you're suggesting de-sysopping someone over it then perhaps it's too sensitive to be editing neutrally. There are millions of other topics to edit.   Will Beback  talk  04:06, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Taking your points in turn, (1) RL name – same situation here, at least in part. (2) I would consider my linking to your off-site forum posts as Will Beback (say on WikipediaReview etc.) here on Wikipedia as improper. I believe that is the general community understanding. (3) The Osho article has averaged an edit a day for the past year, and has been stable. There are talk page comments to that effect by multiple editors. So has the 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack FA, which I co-wrote with Cirt, and the other articles. To the extent that there has been controversy recently at Osho (Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh) and Rajneesh movement, I believe any fair-minded examination of the few talk page and article edits I have made will show that I have tried to mediate between more extreme views than my own. (4) If you search for Jayen466 and Osho on WP talk pages, you will find that I have talked on-wiki about my past involvement with the movement, including conversations you took part in. (5) I believe linking to editor's off-site activities is improper, especially so by an admin. There are limits, and that is what the proposed desysop is about. I have never seen an admin link to an editor's offsite posts, regardless where and under what name they were made. --JN466 04:36, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

1) If Jayen is your real name then I don't understand how using it would be outing. I don't see any other name on the linked pages. 2) I disagree that linking to posts by Newyorkbrad or Everyking on WR would be regarded by the community as instances of outing. If I'm not mistaken folks have linked to external forum postings and blogs before. 3) I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that you have not been involved in any conflicts concerning the Osho/Rajneesh article? Can you see how being an involved party with an undisclosed involvement in the topic could make it hard to be a neutral mediator? 4) Would you be willing to avoid editing the topic in the future? 5) I'd be surprised if there is no precedent for linking to off-site postings. Has anyone ever been de-sysopped someone for linking to such posts that have been written using the same name?   Will Beback  talk  05:05, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with Jayen's assertion of credit for that FA. Actually he slowed down progress during article improvement; he seemed unfamiliar with FA standards and was difficult to work with. [40], [41] Cirt (talk) 05:39, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I was indeed unfamiliar with FA standards at the time, but did contribute content which still stands in the article today. You did the lion's share of the work no doubt, yet we each have a half barnstar in our user space to remind us of the collaboration, so at least one observer thought something useful was going on. Cheers, --JN466 05:54, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

The learning curve of the Wikipedia project is fast in some areas and slow in others. We're still figuring out how to deal with various issues including long-running ethnic disputes, political debates, and intensive new religious movements. In regard to the latter, we have the example of user:Jossi, who used a variety of Wikipedia paths to promote his teacher. Jossi, another editor of a new religious movement of Indian origins who had a problematic conflict of interest, claimed credit for helping to promote FA where he was perhaps more of a hindrance than a help. Osho (Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh) and Prem Rawat are both Indian gurus who achieved prominence in the West in the 1970s. The followers of these spiritual leaders have a history of trouble editing related articles in a neutral fashion. Let's find a way to resolve that problem.   Will Beback  talk  11:24, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

You are not by any chance seeking to imply that I am in many ways like Jossi, and "more of a hindrance than a help" at the Prem Rawat articles that have taken your fancy, are you? It would only be human for you to consider me a hindrance there, but I feel compelled to point out that you were admonished for your Rawat editing at the most recent Prem Rawat arbcom, and I was one of the few parties who was not. Glasshouse, stones. Let us also remember that it takes two sides to make a POV problem. In the much-quoted WP:ARBSCI, the number of cult critics that arbcom saw fit to topic-ban outstripped the number of Scientologists sanctioned.

And just FYI, the only FA contribution credits I claim are those where I have received barnstars for my input, explicitly naming the article, or a thank you post from the author on my talk page. So why make a shoddy comment like that, Will? --JN466 12:45, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Outing: Excuse my butting-in. Contrary to what Will Beback says, I can confirm that given a RL detail in one of the links, I can find over 800 google results. At least one of those results provides sufficient detail to find out Jayen466's RL name, employment and location. Esowteric+Talk 07:54, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

You've looked more closely than I. I've been in contact with JN about it and I'm sure there's a way to redact this down to the relevant parts without any unnecessary disclosures.   Will Beback  talk  10:53, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

correction jayen, January 2008, almost 2 years ago, when I was still wet behind the ears. Following this I made a naive attempt at filing a COI report about you and Jalal when you were both actively tag-teaming on the article.

Yes, I did bring what I thought was a discrepancy to George's attention, privately, because I saw a denial which appears to be somewhat disingenuous, but I clearly stated I was not seeking a reprimand.

In terms of why I'm being cautious, I witnessed what I considered, at the time, to be biased and dishonest engagement with the Osho article; you downplayed your knowledge of the movement, and only when challenged on the sourcing did it become clear that your knowledge base was significantly greater than that evidenced in your initial contributions. You were actually very familiar with most of the notable literature on the subject but addressed it only when challenged on the articles content issues.

Since then you have become the paragon of neutrality, and I commend you on your efforts, but I still find you sometimes cagey (plus a bit of a religious zealot).

If you were genuinely no longer associated with the Rajneesh Movement, why did you use your Sanyassin title as a wikipedia username? In the interests of transparency, I asked you for an honest explanation for the use of this title, because I wasn't aware you had made a prior disclosure, I fail to see why any of this is problematic.

Also, this is hardly an outing offense, the link that I posted in January 2008 was not removed by admin for quite some time (though it appears to has since been scrubbed), and you made no explicit statement on that "outing" so I don't see what the fuss is now. If you are concerned about "privacy" why are you using the exact same user name across the internet? We could dig on many user names, and maybe find personal info, eventually, but no one here has ever posted Jayen's real name, address etc. so this is not an outing. Semitransgenic (talk) 11:12, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, thanks for your endorsement of my neutrality. Why I used my sannyasin name? Lack of imagination. I already had a pseudonym; I'd used it for posts online elsewhere before, and was too lazy to make up another one. I don't use it at home, if that is what you want to know. I find you cagey too (though I feel a strange bond of kinship when we defend present article status against "newcomers"), and I also suspect you turned up under two different sock accounts at two GA reviews of an article of mine. Well, perhaps your points had merit; I don't regret taking them on board. It was the edit to techno that gave it away. ;) --JN466 11:22, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

And sorry, I had meant to write January 2008. --JN466 11:22, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

might i also state that I have not, and will not, go so far as to search for your actual identity, as Esowteric appears to have done, it doesn't interest me in the least, it was solely a matter of confirming a direct connection with the movement, which did not involve outing. If you are stating that you are no longer affiliated with OFI or any of it's subsidiaries we should take your word on that. Semitransgenic (talk) 12:31, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. I am indeed not so affiliated. --JN466 12:49, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Buy me a new microwave as per WP:Overheat and WP:Humor

My old microwave is not doing the job. I propose we indef block it and buy me a new one.

• Support: No offense to Jayen or George or everyone else. Just trying to lighten up this drama filled page. I hereby announce the birth of a new movement on this magical date, 12/3: the NoSho movement: if there's a dispute, dont show up. It'll go away itself. Well no not really. Oh well. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 03:17, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
• Support Well, thanks for the humour, at any rate. :) --JN466 03:39, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
• Support It's great to be able to find lightness in this tense and abhorrent case of invasion of privacy. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 09:28, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
• What the hell, ban the silly thing indefinitely, block its IP, and tag it for sockpuppetry. (You ever try to dry out wet socks in a microwave, even a low setting? My brother did once years ago. Ewwww.) John Carter (talk) 14:05, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

• I have no idea if that's supposed to be sarcastic or not, its still hilarious--Jac16888^Talk 09:31, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - it's obviously just misunderstood and is doing what it thinks is right from its own POV. I suggest mentoring; my toaster only burns the bread about half the time, so it might be up to the job. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:57, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete- oops, sorry, I meant Strong Oppose. I'm convinced this toaster can learn from its mistakes. It just needs to understand that the way it toasts bread isn't the way we toast bread on Wikipedia. A little insignificant ^{Giving thanks to all that is me} 17:04, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
• Strong Support: Due to blatant sockpuppetry, revealed via it's confusion about whether it's a microwave or a toaster. Possible multiple personality disorder? --Thejadefalcon^{Sing your song}_{The bird's seeds} 17:12, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
• Neutral: My clutch cable broke. Redheylin (talk) 18:18, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
• Make that STRONG neutral.

[edit] Tarc's relentless antagonism and trolling

Tarc is continuing to hound me and to involve himself in discussions that have nothing to do with him in order to take shots at me and pursue a vendetta. Some sort of administrative action to put a stop to his battlefield behavior and disruption is needed. See his comments in above discussions. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:07, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I must be off shortly for an hour or so, so a proper response will have to wait. I am disappointed that CoM has yet again failed to note specific actions or words of mine that he feels necessitate administrative intervention. Yes I have weighed in, here and in the past, on his bad behavior. I do not feel any of that input rises to any sort of level of incivility or disruption. If CoM feels otherwise, please, lay out some facts. Tarc (talk) 17:22, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes COM, please provide quotes, edit differences, and dates. Right now you are offering an unsubstantiated opinion. This already is feeling like an RFC. Ikip (talk) 19:07, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

CoM's proximate concern is, as stated, Tarc's recent edits to this page. His edits since the beginning of this month to this page are:

• here at 13:50 December 2, on a matter unrelated to CoM on a thread CoM had not contributed to and before the contentious thread above was started,
• here at 16:13 on December 2, again on a subject CoM had not contributed to and before the contentious thread above was started
• here at 19:09 December 2, the first relevant to CoM in which Tarc says "CoM has a long history in unrelated policy discussions of directing antagonism towards those that have had to use the stick against him in the past",
• here at 19:24 December 2, in which he responds to what he indicates are CoM's early misrepresentation of earlier events regarding what he says is his one historic block and in which he indicates he has this page watchlisted]
• here at 21:21 on December 2, in which Tarc indicates that CoM's thread calling for various heads should be closed, but the thread regarding the possible block of CoM be kept open, at least in part because, as he says, that thread had yet to receive a single oppose
• here at 21:53 on December 2, in which he responds to a comment made by Redheylin
• here at 04:23 on December 3, in which he responds to another editor who had stated CoM should not be blocked because CoM is a productive ditor, citing examples of other productive editors who have been sanctioned
• here at 13:30 on December 3, in which he makes a statement regarding how CoM does not initiate topics here
• here aT 17:04 December 3, in which he closes again the call for heads which had been closed by someone else earlier and reopened by CoM, and in which he says in the edit summary that CoM should not make things worse for himself by reopening it
• here at 17:06 December 3, simply moving a hatnote
• here at 17:11 December 3, in which he responds to my comment about how placing blocks on editors who initiate unfounded complaints might be dubious, and noting that CoM had repeatedly reopened the call for heads section after others had closed it,
• here at 17:13 December 3, fixing his own addition of an unsigned template to my earlier comment (this machine is currently experiencing intermittent tilde failure, I'm afraid),
• and finally here at 1&;22 December 3, his own single addition to this thread above.

In my own opinion, I believe that the evidence indicates that Tarc's statement that he has the page watchlisted is seemingly accurate, and that in fact the claims made by CoM regarding Tarc are at best distortions of fact, very possibly violations of WP:HARRASS, and serves as further evidence of how CoM just likes starting threads to discipline people with whom he has had disagreements. I personally think that the thread should be closed as the available evidence seems to at least me to be much more critical of CoM than of Tarc himself, and that it should be closed with no action against Tarc. John Carter (talk) 20:37, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I know nothing about this dispute, nor do I want to get much involved. All I know is COM is an editor who is talked about often here on ANI.

John Carter, thanks for sharing those links. Okay, John Carter's edit differences are all the contributions that Tarc has made to ANI this month. That shows that Tarc regularly edits ANI, and claims that COM is being hounded by Tarc on ANI, if he said this, are probably not true.

Both of you are accusing the other party of hounding or harrassing. There are six sections of WP:HARASS:

1. Wikihounding, 2. Threats, 3. Perceived legal threats, 4. Posting of personal information WP:OUTING, 5. Private correspondence, 6. User space harassment

Is there evidence of Tarc following COM to pages and/or vice versa? (Wikihounding)

If not Com's hounding claim is bunk.

Is there evidence of COM violating any of the 6 sections of Harass?

If not, John carter's claim of harassment is bunk. John Carter wrote: "claims made by CoM regarding Tarc are at best distortions of fact" COMs statments alone maybe "Unfounded accusations of harassment" but COMs statments are not harassment themselves.

I hope both parties keep in mind that, "Unfounded accusations of harassment may be considered a serious personal attack and dealt with accordingly." Ikip (talk) 20:58, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

CoM has recently been posting to John Carter's talk page despite requests to stay off. Does that count? --Thejadefalcon^{Sing your song}_{The bird's seeds} 21:04, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:HUSH (6. User space harassment) part of WP:HARASS, also see the essay Wikipedia:Don't restore removed comments:

I think a good argument can be made of Harassment per WP:HUSH if Thejadefalcon edit differences are correct.

COM can probably claim ignorance though, and apologize to John Carter, as this is a section I have never heard of, and I never actually knew about until just now myself.

I don't know if "ignorance of the law is no excuse" applies on wikipedia. Ikip (talk) 21:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────────┘
I think you've gotta consider what is the one feature common to all these dramas? From where I sit, it appears to be CoM. Crafty (talk) 21:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

My claim is based on the comments of CoM at the top of this thread.

As per WP:HOUND, "Wiki-hounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on pages or topics they may edit or debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work, with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annonyance or distress to the other editor". "The important component of wiki-hounding is disruption to another user's enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, for no overriding reason." I believe requesting administrative action against someone without anything like just cause in such a setting as this probably constitutes a violation of the above.

As per that same page, the section "Threats" immediately below it states "Threatening another person is considered harassment. This may include threats to harm another person, to disrupt their work on wikipedia, or to otherwise harm them. Statements of intent to use normal wikipedia processes properly, such as dispute resolution, are not threats." Beyond the open question as to whether filing what I believe to be a baseless claim is considered using "wikipedia processes properly", there is the question as to whether this is not only a threat, but an explicit attempt "to disrupt their work on wikipedia." For what little it might be worth, CoM's warning to Tarc on his user page here is probably more civil than CoM's comments here.

Granted, this may fall within a grey zone in the eyes of some. I did however make my statements in such a way as to indicate it was my opinion. I stand by my earlier claim that this thread should be closed without action taken against Tarc. If anyone wishes to take action against me on the basis of an alleged personal attack, they are free to do so. John Carter (talk) 21:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I think right now we need to pick one of two things and actually do it. Was tarc bothering COM? if so block him. If he wasn't, block COM for a frivolous report.--Crossmr (talk) 21:32, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Ikip's "Both of you are accusing the other party of hounding or harrassing" statement, I would have to express disagreement there. CoM does not harass me personally, and I do not believe that I have ever put forth such a claim. What I have said is that he needs to put up or shut so to speak up in regards to "hounding", "battlefield", "disruption", and I am glad he has finally chosen to do so rather than leave vague hints and innuendo in other threads. I have also pointed out that CoM is a general nuisance and antagonist of numerous other editors, mostly admins, both in AN/I and on various user talk pages. This bad behavior stems from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Obama articles, where ChildofMidnight believed himself to be the aggrieved party, only to see the ArbCom committee determine that he was (rightly, IMO) one of the primary aggressors and instigators of the affair. Travesty in motion sat atop of his userpage for awhile, haranguing AC members at various times (Wizardman, and 2), the infamous episode of comparing other editors to Nazis, for starters. Tarc (talk) 21:45, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

CoM's comment at the start of this thread refers only to this page, quoting here, "See his comments in above discussions". Based on that comment, which refers only to this page, I had no choice but to assume that the complaint dealt only with edits to this page in the recent past such that they appeared on this page, rather than the archives, at the time that comment was posted. I am also very interested in the AE case linked to above regarding Nazis, in which the closer of the discussion indicated that perhaps it was time for the community to take action on its own regarding CoM. John Carter (talk) 22:22, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

See my comments toward the bottom of this section above in regard to starting a user conduct RfC. Nothing useful is going to come of these threads, but an RfC could be a good way to go. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 23:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

The diffs posted by John Carter speak for themselves. Tarc claims to be a regular contributor to ANI and yet how many (10 of 15 or so?) of his posts this month are pointed attacks towards me where he brings up irrelevancies in threads about issues in which he has ABSOLUTELY NO INVOLVEMENT. He also makes statements about my motivations and accuses me of all sorts of things.

If it's determined that this is appropriate behavior, then so be it. My understanding of civility, stalking, and harassment are perhaps different than some other editors. I know they are very different from John Carter's. And of course Tarc's involvement on other pages shows a similar focus on me. So while John Carter objects to my polite requests on his talk page asking him to refactor his false statements about me, this same admin thinks an editor following me around to pick fights is appropriate? So be it. I can't understand why we're losing content contributors... ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

It is hardly anyone else's fault but your own that you cut a wide swath across AN/I. Let's see if the one above produces a significant block; if it doesn't, then perhaps I will take Bigtimepeace up on his offer to turn that RfC link above from red to blue, if he wants to.

And regarding "asking him to refactor his false statements about me", could you please provide a diff of one of these? Thanks. Tarc (talk) 00:32, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

COM, I have noticed that whenever someone says "xxxx speak for themselves" this means the editor will not provide evidence in the form of edit differences, correct?

John Carter, you did state that COM was involved in: "Unfounded accusations of harassment" I never stated that COM's alleged harassment was directed to you.

The watered down term WP:HOUNDING originally was called "stalking", "requesting administrative action against someone" is not "stalking", it is not following someone around from page to page.

Wikipedia:Harass#Threats is more serious than filing administrative action against someone.

So regarding WP:HARASS, COM has violated WP:HUSH, if Thejadefalcon edit differences are correct.

The personal attacks:

User_talk:Wizardman/Archive25#Bias.2C_censorship.2C_and_Arbcom "I was just reading about your fellow Arbcom member's sockpuppeteering and POV pushing." Looks like a bad faith comment, but unfortunately, it is similar to many of the comments here directed at COM. If there is no proof of sockpuppeting then it is a personal attack too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AChildofMidnight&diff=310733806&oldid=310711181 The nazi comment, is pretty over the top, and should be the center piece of any RFC.

Anyway, COM, I recall now, I think I gave you a barnstar once, over a year ago.

COM, you better start apologizing quickly, and changing your behavior or you will be banned forever. You obviously either (a) have little evidence against those who want you banned or (b) you don't know how to effectively state your case. Since Bigtimepeace, an editor I respect more than almost every editor on Wikipedia, is willing to start a RFC against you, and I have seen your name many times on ANI, it is probably "a". Ikip (talk) 02:33, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

And that apology had better include a full acknowledfgement of your repeated distoriton of fact, at least possibly bordering on outright dishonesty. The claim you objected to my making at 19:16 Decdember 2 here, to the effect of your having given notice, was and remains factually accurate. You gave exactly one notice, six minutes after that posting, here, at 19:22 December 2. Let me make it clear to you CoM. I will not remove factually accurate information regardless of how often you attempt to distort it. Particularly considering that, given the length of time between my making my posting and your finally getting around to do what the page requires, I have every reason to believe that you only made the post after seeing how I had remarked on your failure to do so. If that is true, as I believe it is, then your persistently raising demonstrably false accusations against others for the purpose of hiding your ownn failure to abide by even basic civility is very definitely something that deserve serious consideration.

I also note that CoM persists in justifying this claim, now adding that unspecified comments elsewhere, which were not referenced in the original complaint, are relevant I look forward to seeing diffs of those comments elsewhere which CoM has now decided to include in the complaint, after the first version of his complaint was found to be what I and I believe others consider unsupported by the available evidence. John Carter (talk) 14:31, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

The record is quite clear John Carter. You made an absurd and disruptive claim complaining that I hadn't informed you about a thread that you were already involved in. I responded (as did other editors and admins letting you know you were out of line). I also notified GWH that he was included in the thread. You apparently didn't see the notification, and notified him again (as you've acknowledged on your talk page and is clear from GWH's talk page). You accused me of failing to notify him. I called you out on it because your statement was false. Instead of correcting it you repeated it. I called you out on it again.

You still refused to correct yourself. I reminded you on your talk page that making false claims is a civility violation. You then tried to excuse your incorrect accusations by saying you thought my notification was related to something old even though it's clearly dated. And, as far as I know, you still have not corrected you improper and completely false accusations.

And yet here you are again continuing to make grotesque distortions to cover up your abusive behavior. Please try to do some collegial content contributing instead of going after editors who dare to point out your improper behavior. Lying about the actions of other editors is a clear civility violation as is failing to correct them when they are pointed out to you. Your comments accusing me of not notifying GWH (posted after I had done so and after I had told you I had done so) remain to this very moment, a testament to your failure to comply with our policies. You should be aware that this type of misconduct may be grounds for you losing your tools. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:44, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I regret to say hat your comments above display what some might call a lack of contact with reality. I meant not only myself, but also Cirt and GWH, and at the time I said that you had, in fact, contacted no one. Therefore, there was no statement to correct, because the statement was accurate. There was no false claim. I have demonstrated through diffs above that the only person you ever did contact was GWH, and that after the fact of my comment. I did add a comment later in the thread, which in general is how such things are handled. The record is unfortunately become clearer and clearer regarding your behavior here. I and others specifically asked you to provide some evidence to support your as-yet completely unspported allegations for the comments starting this thread. You have pointedly refused to do so, instead once again insisting that reality be adjusted to your convenience after the fact. Regarding your threat regarding my adminship, perhaps if you read this page you will see that I had alreaady asked in that thread to have my conduct reviewed. I in fact asked two other admins, both of whom stated that was no evidence presented to support the claim. I would think, at this point, your primary concern would be regarding your own credibility in these matters, and that would best be served by providing the evidence which has been requested to support your claims against Tarc, which you have yet to provide any evidence to support, making, at this point, two threads you have started to discipline others based on no evidence whatsoever. I would point out, by the way, that I think I got on your enemies list because of blocking you on October 8 for disruptive editing. John Carter (talk) 18:44, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] IP used for reverts in Israeli-Palestinian disputes

Question regarding: 166.217.187.155 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

By the looks of things, this is an experienced user who's reverting things with an anti-Israeli perspective (they call it "consensus") without logging into their account. Reasons could be from laziness all the way up to being a topic banned or site banned editor undercutting their sanction. In any event, such conduct can only induce similar behavior from the other side of the conflict and could easily degenerate any discussion into an electric fence gaming where everyone's trying to figure out who's using an IP to get his favorite version into the article. Here's a sample of said IP fighting in such a manner with another IP and, just recently, this IP has made a revert on an article I'm discussing issues on that is very sensitive and could easily degenerate. Putting it succinctly, I'm concerned with said IP and was wondering if there's any suggestions/thoughts on the issue as how to handle such drive by possibly banned editors best. Warm regards, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 23:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Your question is vague and unspecified. The answer (to your non-question "I .. was wondering if there's any suggestions/thoughts on the issue as how to ..." etc etc), so far, is: 1st: Please specify --illustrated with diffs; multiple ones if you want to point a 'trend'--. 2nd: no, there are no "suggestions/thoughts" at this level. PS You are not new on Wikipedia. -DePiep (talk) 00:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I have notified the IP user about this discussion...GiantSnowman 00:56, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Note, a SPI case has been filed here: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/166.217.187.155 --nsaum75 ^¡שיחת! 02:19, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] People like me are the reason why people can never really trust Wikipedia.

I am posting this because I want other administrators, who are not so corrupt and morally bankrupt, to see this behavior for what it is: Poison to the reputation of Wikipedia.

Will someone please review the behavior of Gamaliel regarding the blocking of the account I just created, Technical_reasons. I posted anonymously to the talk page of this article [[42]], which User:Gamaliel then deleted and immediately banned the IP I had posted from. I then created an account in response to his concerns of anonymity and reposted my topic in the discussion page, which user:Gamaliel then called wp:van and removed. After contacting him on his talk page, he then proceeded to ban my account citing block evasion. An indef block with no coherent reasoning given.

When I posted on his talk page that I felt that he was misusing his admin privileges, the posting was immediately removed by newyorkbrad(talk) with no reason given. I reposted my concerns on Gamaliel's page and another admin, Craftyminion(talk) immediately removed it again, but this time with the potential threat "Don't do this..." Perhaps I should have listened to the voice of the Wikimafia because my account was quickly banned when I tried to follow the WP guidelines regarding my concerns. I assume the threat was in reference for trying to bring to light the unseemly abuse of Wikipedia and admin powers.

The threat from Crafty and bad faith behavior is in the edit history of the talk pages of Gamaliel(talk), Craftyminion(talk), newyorkbrad(talk).

142.104.160.216 (talk) 01:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

That account was blocked for block-evasion and being an attack-only account. But thanks for giving us your IP address. How are things in BC? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 01:58, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Bloody cold, I tell you what. Throwaway85 (talk) 06:10, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

What, no Plaxico, lol? Oops, forgot to sign. Heironymous Rowe (talk) 02:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Previous mischief was done with 142.104.215.217, so I think we already knew where the guy was coming from, but point made. WP:RBI is best here. -- Atama頭 02:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Heh. I'm in a Cabal. :D Crafty (talk) 02:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Apparently, you're also an admin.— Dædαlus ^Contribs 23:15, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

What a terrifying thought. >:) Crafty (talk) 19:04, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

142.104.215.217 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
142.104.160.216 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Technical_reasons (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

[edit] 98.234.169.63 = Fastily?

Pardon the digression, but is 98.234.169.63 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) actually the admin Fastily (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) in the discussion some distance up the page? Or is it an impostor? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:37, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be less drama inducing to ask him about it? That account has been editing for months ([43]), so I don't think it's an imposter. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Asking the IP would be rather pointless. I was going to ask Fastily, but he hasn't edited under that ID since the 26th. It just seems weird for an IP to sign as a user, especially an admin. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:15, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

He's been doing it for months [44], but I admit it's a bit odd. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether Fastily is doing that because he is deliberately or accidentally logged out at the time. The only issue I have is with the replacement of the IP signature with Fastily's signature. A better way would be to add a link in brackets after the IP signature. Mjroots (talk) 07:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Deliberately logged out. I'm busy in real life right now so I'm attempting to take a Wikibreak which hasn't been all that successful thus far. I usually end up spending less time on-wiki editing as an IP without the tools so I do that. Please feel free to email me if you need me to confirm this. Regards, FASTILY ^(TALK) 07:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Fastily, if you take up my suggestion above, we can mark this one as resolved. Mjroots (talk) 08:21, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Any others alternative identities you would like to admit to Fastily?--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 00:45, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Since you are asking about IP addresses, WP:OUTING may apply. Fastily, I would really suggest you try to avoid editing that much while logged out. If your IP address changes (and three months seems about right), finding out what you've said becomes unnecessarily complicated. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:32, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I would like to see some acknowledgment from Fastily's own logon confirming - not that IP address again saying, "Yes, it's me." The reason I brought this up in the first place is that the IP's comments didn't sound like an admin talking, they sounded pointy, like someone trying to fan the flames. We shouldn't have to send someone an e-mail. That also sounds fishy. If it's actually Fastily, he should log on once and post here, and confirm that that IP is him. Either that, or the IP should be blocked on suspicion of impersonation. Which, by the way, is what I was originally going to propose at AIV, but I thought it would be better to bring it here first. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:10, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Request a review of my block of Lomcevak

I have just blocked User:Lomcevak. I believe the user passes the duck test with regards being User:Dsmith1usa. They share similar editing patterns, specifically the articles Natascha Engel and Politico-media complex. The user appears to have continued editing the article Natasha Engel in a tendentious manner, and given that Politico-media complex is forming part of Wikipedia:School and university projects/User:Piotrus/Fall 2009, the user has proven unhelpful and disruptive at Talk:Politico-media complex. Given that teh user is attempting to evade a block issued to User:Dsmith1usa by creating a new sock puppet account, I have blocked indefinitely, although I bring the issue here for review. Hiding T 17:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Briefly looking at Talk:Politico-media complex and User talk:Sam Blacketer as well as the Dsmith1usa's contribs, I'd say they're the same. Good block. MuZemike 19:04, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, very likely - the two articles Natascha Engel and Politico-media complex are relatively obscure - a near-neologism and a backbench MP. You may wish to check User talk:Sam Blacketer/Archive 51-100#Natascha Engel and User talk:Sam Blacketer/Archive 51-100#Natascha Engel again et seq. Sam Blacketer (talk) 23:20, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Well User talk:Sam Blacketer#Guidance nails it for me that they are one and the same. Now I ponder if the block should stand? Do you think they're capable of contributing within the spirit of behavioural policy? Hiding T 14:21, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Incipient edit war at Josip Broz Tito

I am not an english native speaker. So I’m not sure if this is the right place to point out the following situation. If it isn’t, I beg for you to move it to the proper place.

User: AlasdairGreen27 and User: DIREKTOR keep engaging in persistent vandalism on Josip Broz Tito, removing every contents inserted by other users, as you can see from http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Josip_Broz_Tito&action=history. I noticed (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Josip_Broz_Tito and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Josip_Broz_Tito/Archive_2) that both users had keep deleting any new section of the article that may be perceived as critic towards Tito by the readers, supporting each others in doing so against a lot of different users. I’m not the first one to quarrel about this situation as you can see from the following links, which are mere examples of their behavior: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Josip_Broz_Tito/Archive_2#Discussion, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Josip_Broz_Tito/Archive_2#Whitewashing.3F, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Josip_Broz_Tito#Concerning_Wikipedia.27s_Article_Josip_Broz_Tito and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Josip_Broz_Tito#Josip_Broz_Tito. Particularly they keep deleting a passage (which was inserted by me in the article), which was heavily sourced, refusing to discuss the matter (“The foibe will not be mentioned in this article”, “End of story”, “I have no comments to make to you”, “There is nothing to discuss”). Despite my warnings (I advise them that they were committing vandalism a lot of times) and my efforts to start a true discussion (they keep refusing to comment their deletions), they seemed unnecessarily harsh towards me since their very first comment to me on the talk page (“you are here not to advance the encyclopedia, but merely to use Wikipedia as a vehicle for your own peculiar POV”, “You will notice that we have rather higher standards than that”, “you've so far clearly demonstrated you are here to push some kind of POV with biased wording”, “enwiki's burly security officers will no doubt show you to the exit fairly promptly”). They refuse to be reasonably cooperative and they show a persistent lack of good faith (“What you wrote was put there specifically and solely in an attempt to prejudice the reader against the subject of the article”) too. You can read the deleted passage here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Josip_Broz_Tito&oldid=329320296. You can read our discussion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Josip_Broz_Tito#Foibe and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Josip_Broz_Tito#New. I don’t want to start an edit war or to make things worse, so I’m asking you to please resolve the situation. Thanks. --AndreaFox2 (talk) 19:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I've notified the individuals involved of the discussion. —ShadowRanger ^(talk|