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[edit] Districts of Kraków (You wrote)
Hi, there seems to be a bit of inconsistency with these, since we have an article called Districts of Kraków which concerns the 18 dzielnice, and we have a Category:Districts of Kraków which contains mainly articles on various other neighbourhoods of Kraków. Could we agree to follow the example of Warsaw, call the dzielnice "boroughs" and smaller districts "neighbourhoods", at least for categorization purposes? (There's also a Category:Boroughs of Kraków, but it only has one page in it - not sure how that came about.) --Kotniski (talk) 11:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC) - Thank you for mentioning this. The Categories are a big mess, and need to be straighten out. First of all, the term Borough is unpopular in North America where I live. We use the word District instead, because boroughs originate from British English, with far less readership worldwide. Therefore, I would suggest to stick to Category: Districts of Kraków without renaming it, and remove the subcategory about the Boroughs of Kraków. In the past, there used to be a stub for each of the Districts separately, but they were all merged recently into one article called Districts of Kraków and disappeared from the page of categories. Please note that in the Category: Boroughs of Poland there are only four cities listed: Kraków, Poznań, Warsaw, and Wrocław. Meanwhile, we all know that most Polish cities have Districts (or Boroughs) just like them; so, they should eventually populate the categories as well, but that might take time. Not all Districts deserve an article in Wikipedia as of now, but they should at least appear in our Categories. We can do that by adding new categories at the bottom of articles about other cites as well. --Poeticbent talk 17:27, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
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- I'm not sure what you mean by that last bit. But as far as the naming of categories go, you'd suggest renaming Category:Boroughs of Warsaw to Category:Districts of Warsaw, and similarly with the other cities (Poznań, Wrocław)? Sounds OK to me.--Kotniski (talk) 17:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for supporting my proposal. What I meant by the last bit however, was an option I'd like you to consider. For example, in an article about Łódź there are no districts mentioned in text at all, but there is an article in Polish Wikipedia called pl:Dzielnice Łodzi listing Bałuty, Górna, Polesie, Śródmieście and Widzew. These districts could appear in our future Category: Districts of Łódź providing that they were somehow linked from the article's own list of cats. That's what I meant. --Poeticbent talk 18:09, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see how it's possible to do that - the article's own list of cats can only contain links to the categories the article is in. But about renaming the borough categories to districts - I'll mention it at the Poland project talk page, and if no-one objects then I'll do it.--Kotniski (talk) 08:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks. I see your point about the list of cats mentioned inside articles about cities, thus making it impossible to specify the districts in this way. The only solution is to create a series of stubs i.e. Districts of Łódź and so on (for all major aglomerations), so the Category: Boroughs of Poland would at least include the names of most other big Polish cities linked from it. --Poeticbent talk 15:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi after a visit to krakow a few months ago I have been quietly and irregularly tagging categories for the polish project - have no fear - my polish is zilch - it was impenetrable as hungarian was for me - so its just a maintenance of categories and project thing i have :) SatuSuro 08:34, 11 December 2009 (UTC) [edit] Białystok I noticed your work on the administrative divisions of Białystok. The main article lists "osiedla" as "districts", which is a gross misunderstanding. Polish "osiedle" is a "neighbourhood" in North America, similar to a residential neighbourhood Strathcona, Vancouver in the city of Vancouver, Canada. To give you a more direct Polish example - from our last discussion - District XVIII Nowa Huta of Kraków has a number of the so called "obszary" (former villages) and "osiedla" listed at pl:Szablon:Dzielnica XVIII Nowa Huta. The question is, how should we name our "osiedla" in English to avoid further mistakes of this kind? --Poeticbent talk 18:30, 11 December 2009 (UTC) - Well, I've seen the word "neighbourhood" used (as in Category:Neighbourhoods of Warsaw). Though there are actually two meanings (at least) of "osiedle" - if it means something like a specific housing development than I would call it "estate" (though I think that's British English). In the case of Białystok I'm not sure it's so wrong to call them districts - they seem to be the top-level divisions of the city, so in fact similar to the dzielnice of Kraków, just with a different name. (But maybe there's some difference I'm not aware of.)--Kotniski (talk) 18:42, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Please take a look at the article in Polish Wikipedia called pl:Podział administracyjny Białegostoku. It clearly states that the 28 divisions are not called "dzielnice", but "osiedla". Apparently, the city is not large enough to have its own administrative divisions known as "dzielnice" in the Polish administrative law similar to Kraków and Warsaw. I don't think we have to stick to American English in this instance, because British "estates" seem to describe "osiedla" better in the European context. However, if we were to create a new merged article for Białystok similar to Districts of Kraków, it should be named Neighborhoods of Białystok, because it includes not only "osiedla" (estates), but also the so called "obszary" (former villages). --Poeticbent talk 19:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm still thinking about how best to resolve this. Please take a look at the following draft, based on the corresponding article in Polish Wikipedia, with my proposed translation for a possible series of similar articles about other cities. | Podział administracyjny Białegostoku | Administrative division of Białystok | | Obecny podział administracyjny Białegostoku ukształtował się w wyniku uchwały Rady Miejskiej nr XXXI/331/04 z dnia 25 października 2004 roku, zgodnie z którą Białystok został podzielony na 27 pomocniczych jednostek administracyjnych, nazwanych osiedlami. Ponadto uchwałą nr LXII/787/06 z dnia 23 października 2006 roku z przyłączonych do Białegostoku miejscowości Dojlidy Górne, Kolonia Halickie i Zagórki zostało utworzone osiedle Dojlidy Górne.[1] | | The city of Białystok is divided into 27 administrative units known in Polish as osiedle (housing estate, or residential neighborhood) in accordance with the City Hall bylaw no. XXXI/331/04 dated October 25, 2004. In addition, the city bylaw no. LXII/787/06 from October 23, 2006 incorporated the following settlements into the city as obszar (locality): Dojlidy Górne, Kolonia Halickie and Zagórki, forming osiedle Dojlidy Górne. |
What do you think? --Poeticbent talk 01:10, 12 December 2009 (UTC) - Yes, that looks good. You can actually link osiedle, since we have a short article on it (written mainly by me). By the way, can you have a look at my move request on Kraków - Stare Miasto? Am I right in thinking the article is strictly about the Old Town neighbourhood, and that Dzielnica I Stare Miasto is something larger (and therefore not the subject of the article)? If so, then the section of Districts of Kraków should also be rewritten to make that clear.--Kotniski (talk) 09:54, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Please take a look at this new article I created hoping that we could use the same format also for other Polish cities divided into osiedla (rather than dzielnice): Administrative division of Białystok. Feedback appreciated. Cheers, Poeticbent talk 20:57, 12 December 2009 (UTC) - Yes, I think the article is good (I just made a few small changes). By the way, are you happy now about moving Kraków - Stare Miasto to Kraków Old Town? I looked at some street maps and there's definitely a difference between Dzielnica I Stare Miasto and the old town district itself (which the article is about).--Kotniski (talk) 16:02, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Kraków The article Kraków - Stare Miasto was originally created as part of a series of stubs on all districts of Krakow. It was expanded many times since, even though most other districts (except Nowa Huta) were never developed beyond that point. The further expansion of Stare Miasto concentrated on the cultural significance of the Old Town. So, I suppose, the proper title of our article (in its present form) could be changed accordingly. On top of that, we already have a fairly new, separate article called the Districts of Kraków where Administrative District No. 1 Stare Miasto is included, but not yet properly described. The problem is, I don’t know what the actual difference is in terms of territorial boundaries of both. According to the official map provided by Urząd Miasta Krakowa at Biuletyn Informacji Publicznej - BIP (please take a look) Stare Miasto and the Old Town are identical. --Poeticbent talk 17:07, 14 December 2009 (UTC) - That map seems to show the obszar of Stare Miasto. It certainly isn't the same as Dzielnica I, which includes that area plus several others which can be clearly seen to be outside it, such as Piaski and Nowy Świat. You can check with the Polish article pl:Dzielnica I Stare Miasto and at http://www.dzielnica1.krakow.pl/ . --Kotniski (talk) 18:11, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- What I see is that Dzielnica I and the Old Town as we know it, don't match. The boundaries of Stare Miasto as defined by BIP (see above) don't include Kleparz for example. Meanwhile, the Royal Road in Kraków extends into Kleparz and than further up across Jan Matejko Square towards the Polytechnic. So, the Old Town includes more than a single district from the modern tourist perspective. --Poeticbent talk 18:35, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- But you realise that the BIP map is not of Dzielnica I? I suppose there are really three entities: (a)Dzielnica I Stare Miasto; (b) the obszar of Stare Miasto as shown on the BIP map (basically the area within the old city walls); and (c) the tourist's old town (which doesn't necessarily have any constant defined boundaries). Certainly (a) is considerably larger than (b), and then (c) is somewhere in between them (but closer to (b), probably). I think the article in question is basically about (b), or possibly stretching into (c) - but it certainly isn't about (a).--Kotniski (talk) 18:44, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
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