This template was considered for deletion or renaming on 2006 April 16. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents 1 (June 2005) 2 What is a subnational entity 3 Krai, kraj, okres, raion and oblast should be included, too 4 Federal 5 unexplained revert 6 Links to disambiguation pages 7 Council 8 Dominion 9 Reduce template size / Separate templates for separate types 10 Conversion to Navigation format 11 [[Quarter (administrative)] 12 Riding? 13 Template explanation link 14 More Historical units of measure 15 Template name

[edit] (June 2005)

I would prefer this version [1]

because here it is more clear that the names in the lower right cell are a mixture of low-left and up-right. Easier to see which terms are in which section. The content centered looks nicer, (for marketing) , but is less usefull IMO Tobias Conradi (Talk) 23:19, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I didn't understand your organizational scheme at first glance, so that's why I centered it, because I thought it was easier on the eyes that way. If you do want to revert it back, since you're the creator of the template I'll respect that, but I think colons to separate the data is good. --Barfooz (talk) 03:53, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I normally prefer when templates like this are centered, but in this particular case some of the lines contain so little information that centering them does not look particularly appealing. I would use the left-align version myself. And please please please remove that awful ugly Edit link!—Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis) 13:24, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you. That I was the original creator should not be important ;-) , but thanks. I left the edit link for now, it helps me a lot to be faster in edit mode. with templates it is so much clicking otherwise. of course can/should be removed one day. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 16:12, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What is a subnational entity

is hamlet a subnational entity? It's really difficult. I do not know the answer. Has any administrative meaning? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 12:39, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

• I'm not entirely sure. But if there's a place for town, and city... surely hamlet and village should be included? — CuaHL 13:01, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
  • maybe :-) Let's leave it until someone "finds out" hamlet is not Tobias Conradi (Talk) 13:49, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
    • I'd say a hamlet is smaller than a village; and "village" seems to be the smallest national administrative division used. Regards, David Kernow (talk) 01:38, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Krai, kraj, okres, raion and oblast should be included, too

But where to? Adam78 02:10, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

there are too much: List of terms for subnational entities Tobias Conradi (Talk) 19:35, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Federal

Shouldn't Federal be moved to federal/national, since many nations/countries have capitals (and/or capital districts) even if they aren't federations? --Dpr 20:48, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I would prefer correct names, i.e. names that the articles use in WP. Some federal districts/territories are never referred to as national districts/territories or there even may be both in one country. Of course these two lines in the template are very close. I thought about having them one follow the other. ... at the end, it is the easiest to only go by alphabet and decide nothing by what the entities might represent. Or shall federal be represented as a sub of national? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 19:35, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] unexplained revert

I reverted it back because this disambiguated version seems better. Perhaps there's a reason that just hasn't been stated yet which will make the other version seem better. Tedernst | talk 00:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Council needs dab. But "County council" and "City council" are not subnational entities. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 00:22, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Why does a "disambiguated version seem better"? What's the point of having a template that leads a reader to a dab page that lists a whole bunch of things, many of which are not related to local government? And what is "Council needs dab" supposed to mean? Why does it "need dab"? --Russ Blau (talk) 09:42, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

you are invited to write a better article, but don't destroy logic of this template Tobias Conradi (Talk) 18:51, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

If you would explain what you see as the logic, instead of just dismissing everyone else's opinion as irrelevant, perhaps I could understand what you are trying to accomplish. --Russ Blau (talk) 01:01, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

i don't think everyone else's opinion is irrelevant. where did i state this? BTW, maybe you explain why city council + county concil should be in this s. entity template? In the articles I could not see these are s. entities. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 02:35, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

First off, I was a bit frustrated when I posted the other night, and I apologize for my tone. Second, I was not the one who thought city council or county council should be in this template; you must have gotten edits mixed up. I agree they aren't appropriate; a city council is not a government entity any more than the U.K. Parliament is a nation-state.

My concern was over the link to Council, but I see that this has now been fixed and I don't consider it an issue any more.

While I'm here, though, what's up with Croft? I read both Croft (land) and Croft (Scotland), and it appears that the term refers to private landholdings, not a unit of government. Am I missing something?

Also, should "Dominion" be relinked to Dominion (colony)? That's the only item on that disambig page that is even remotely like a subnational entity, albeit only historically (and you'd probably get some argument that dominions in fact were nations even before they were fully sovereign states. --Russ Blau (talk) 15:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think I mixed edits, but I assume I thought your council question was related. whatever. let's go on. Dominion and croft seem very good questions. Maybe the whole template should be renamed and be called territorial units? Then we could also include kingdoms, duchy etc. Some terms can be both ("County"?), national and subnational. The German Empire included lots of kingdoms, duchies ... Tobias Conradi (Talk) 16:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Links to disambiguation pages

This template is loaded with links to disambiguation pages, including Banner (not labeled as a dab, but should be); Council; Department, and probably some others. This leads me to question the whole concept of this template. There are so many different systems of government around the world, each one of which has its own sui generis system of subnational entities, that a template trying to summarize all of them is pretty much useless. --Russ Blau (talk) 09:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

3 of 50 is loaded. maybe lessen your bias. Furthermore you can also help and start new articles. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 16:53, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Council

where can rural and local councils as SE (subnational entity) be found? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 02:55, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dominion

...Dominion (colony) was removed. I think it was in because a dominion is not fully sovereign? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 20:13, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reduce template size / Separate templates for separate types

In an experiment to try the above, I've created this as a prototype for perhaps three or four similar templates for national divisions other than administrative, e.g. electoral, environmental, developmental... I'm aware, however, that unlike the many varieties of administrative division, there may only be a few varieties of electoral/environmental/developmental/etc divisions. If so, perhaps a single (but efficiently filled) template is most appropriate. I haven't researched divisions other than administrative divisions yet, so perhaps someone might advise; apart from this, however, what do folk make of this approach...?  Regards, David Kernow (talk) 01:38, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

This has much less links, and some sub types are deleted. Not sure about the loanwords section. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 12:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The subtypes are meant to feature in or be linked from the main types' articles, e.g. "county borough" and "metropolitan borough" in or linked from the Borough article. This keeps the template from becoming unwieldy in size or overcomplex. Re the loanwords section, what are you unsure about...?  Thanks, David (talk) 23:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conversion to Navigation format

In converting the template to the {{Navigation}} format being used in country/territory articles, I've:

1. Removed Constituent country, City council and Local council as the first is not a country subdivision and the latter two not used as subdivisions in terms of areas (so far as I understand);
2. Removed Concelho and Freguesia as they have standard English equivalents (municipality, parish).

There are more terms to add, per here and probably elsewhere; I'll start work on the former anon. The emboldened terms on the template should correspond with the most popular terms appearing here. Regards, David Kernow (talk) 13:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Hoping my merged article on Capital districts and territories hasn't bollixed things up to much. on the linkto page for the new article, I notice the old template still seems to be linking through to the many merged articles separately. Don'tknow if time will take care of that or not... Anyway, please revise the template as you see fit; I have no agenda on the template beyond simplifying the unnecessarily complicated and redundant entries the new one replaces.--Natcase 07:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[[Quarter (administrative)]

I can't believe we missed such a key one.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  13:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Riding?

Shouldn't riding be included here too somewhere (a subdivision of county). Jameboy 17:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess so... Is it a current or historical term, though...?  (I'm not sure after a quick scan through the article...)  Thanks, David Kernow (talk) 02:11, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Mainly historical, certainly in terms of Yorkshire, but it is still used. For example East Yorkshire is more properly known as the East Riding of Yorkshire. Jameboy 18:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template explanation link

Should the redlinked List of terms for contemporary administrative country subdivisions on the template page instead point to Table of administrative country subdivisions by country, or something else? --Quiddity 19:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

AHH -- good catch... the other was either a redirect page or David Kernow's related workup page. He put one heck of a lot of work into this over six weeks back in 2006 with my occasional kibitzing. // FrankB 17:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] More Historical units of measure

May I suggest adding a Hide (unit). Also a Tithing is missing (being 1/10th of a Hundred (country subdivision) which you do list}. Exit2DOS2000^•T•C• 23:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC) Y Done - Also moved related hundred to archaic usages. // FrankB 18:20, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Template name

Anyone else wonder if this template might be better named "Country subdivision types" (per its category)? Sardanaphalus (talk) 12:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

• It's already been renamed a number of times... see the category's redirects... Country subdivision templates includes other templates specific to types, subtypes and regional templates, including by languages so would say no. Let it be. // FrankB 18:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC)