Template talk:Mafia Information & Template talk:Mafia Links at HealthHaven.com

[edit] Serious flaws

This template has serious flaws and should first be discussed before putting it up. I will give detailed comments later, but please refrain from inserting it. - Mafia Expert (talk) 01:59, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Frankly, allthough I do appreciate the effort, I have some serious reservations on how this template is set up. To be honest, I seriously consider to have it deleted. I am sorry to say so – probably some considerable time and energy is put into this constructing it – but it is simply not up to standards.

Let me first explain that my reservations do not only concern the template, but have to do with the quality of Mafia related articles. The first question you have to ask yourself if you want to make a template is: do the articles I am linking to have sufficient quality? That is the first problem. Most are poorly written, do not have sufficient reliable references (if they have them at all), and are significantly biased in the sense that they represent a US point of view on the issue. The one who made this template is not to blame for this, but that is the reality, unfortunately.

I will go into all the mistakes in detail later, but for a start:

The Mafia: You listed the 'Ndrangheta, Camorra, the Cosican Mafia under this heading. These organisations are not the Mafia: the Mafia, or rather Cosa Nostra, is a specifically Sicilian organisation, that migrated to the US as well. The ‘Ndrangheta, Camorra, the Cosican Mafia are NOT the Mafia. Furthermore, why is the Chicago Outfit in the first box, and is there a separate one for the Five Families of New York? If you list the Chicago Outfit here, why not other sub-groups? If you have a separate box for the Five Families of New York, why is their nothing about the Mafia in Sicily? The Sicilian Mafia Commission for instance. That is now under Other. The supreme level of organisation of the Mafia on Sicily and you list that under Other?

There are a lot of other serious mistakes, but I will go into them later. However, please refrain from putting this template on articles before it is properly discussed. - Mafia Expert (talk) 02:20, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

You have very valid concerns. I probably didn't give this enough thought when creating it, and it has grown larger than what I was first thinking.

First I'll address one point you made about the linked articles not being very good quality. That's probably the only point I would disagree with you on. Here's my reasoning, if you think it's flawed, please do refute it. Some of the articles might not be the best quality, but I don't see the problem with linking to them in the template: (1) If the articles are acceptable for inclusion in Wikipedia, in their imperfect state, then they are acceptable for inclusion in this navigational template. If they are not acceptable, then they should be deleted. (2) Including the poor articles in the template will help people find them, and those same people have the opportunity to improve the articles.

Your other concerns about poor organization and straying from a strict "mafia" topic in the template are quite understandable. As you pointed out, some of the linked articles are in some way related to the mafia, but are not about the mafia per se. Perhaps these should be removed, or we could also refactor the whole thing and call it "Template:Organized crime topics". That would allow including other organized crime organizations other than, but similar to the Mafia. Or we could decide to limit this strictly to the mafia, and work on paring down and organizing the template. Which would you recommend?

LinguistAtLarge • Msg 06:03, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed changes

I'll go ahead and propose some changes. First would be limiting this template strictly to the (Sicilian) Mafia. The following is a proposed structure-- what do you think? LinguistAtLarge • Msg 07:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

That looks a lot better, but I am still not really happy. For instance I don't particularly like the header "Dominant families". There are not all necessary dominant. Maybe it is better to link to Sicilian Mafia clans and maybe add Sicilian Mafiosi. The code section was not that bad, but I would delete Duel and Social banditry. I would also add a section on the Antimafia and , why not History of the Sicilian Mafia. I am sorry not to elaborate more, but I have litle time at the moment. - Mafia Expert (talk) 23:01, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I have updated the proposed template above.

1. "dominant families" has been changed to "Commission member families" for the American Mafia. For the US families, these are the families mentioned on the Commission page as the member families. For the Sicilian Commission, it's a lot more complicated, so I have taken your suggestion and only linked to Sicilian Mafia clans and maybe add Sicilian Mafiosi

2. I re-introduced the "codes" section.

3. Added the Anti-mafia and history links as well.

What's your take on this now? (Thanks for all your input by the way) LinguistAtLarge • Msg 18:30, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Much better, we could probably refine it a bit more, but I think this fine to use. I made some changes. The Antimafia is an Italian phenomenon, so I moved it up. - Mafia Expert (talk) 14:27, 7 February 2009 (UTC)