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Archive 1.

Contents 1 White space bug and proposal 2 TheyWorkForYou link 3 Coat of arms 4 statutelaw 5 Terriotorial extent

[edit] White space bug and proposal

Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007
United Kingdom Parliament
Long title:	An Act to create a new offence that, in England and Wales or Northern Ireland, is to be called corporate manslaughter and, in Scotland, is to be called corporate homicide; and to make provision in connection with that offence.
Statute book chapter:	2007 c. 19
Introduced by:	Home Secretary John Reid, July 20 2006
Territorial extent:	England and Wales; Scotland; Northern Ireland
Dates
Date of Royal Assent:	26 July 2007
Commencement:	April 6, 2008 (2008-04-06)
Repeal date:	—
Other legislation
Amendments:	—
Related legislation:	—
Repealing legislation:	—
Status: Not yet in force
History of passage through Parliament
Text of statute as originally enacted
Official text of the statute as amended and in force today within the United Kingdom, from the UK Statute Law Database
This box: view • talk

The current version of the template is bugged as it introduces random amounts of white space at the top of each article it is used on. The amount of white space generated appears to be linked to the use of the external link fields at the bottom of the template, though I have been unable to find a solution that doesn't break another part of the infobox code.

Rather than waste more time with debugging the current template, I have taken the opportunity to recreate the infobox based on the generic {{infobox}} template. This has the advantages of simplifying and standardising most of the code while at the same time removing the white space bug. The only draw back is that the template has had a marked change in style that some editors may not find appealing. I have prepared the replacement template in one of my sandboxes, and transcluded both the current and replacement version onto this other page for comparison.

I would welcome comments on this new proposal or assistance in making improvements (setting custom styles is not one of my strong points). Also, please note that the new template does not yet include the hCalendar Mark-up introduced to the current template a few hours ago. Road Wizard (talk) 21:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of adding hCalendar to your sandbox version; it's working well. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 21:41, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] TheyWorkForYou link

Road Wizard's comments copied from my talk page. This also follows on from a discussion on the help desk. --HughCharlesParker (talk - contribs) 13:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I have adopted the TheyWorkForYou link into my proposed revision of {{Infobox UK Legislation}}. This can be found at User:Road Wizard/Sandbox 4 where you can test how the code works. I am a little cautious about how it will work in practice though as the first test I tried (Peerage Act 1963) returned some very poor results. Restricting the field for use only on recent Acts may improve the quality of the search results. This will need further testing before inclusion in a live version of the template. Regards. Road Wizard (talk) 23:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I have identified another flaw with the search, as the Act is not called an Act until after Royal Assent. Therefore a search of Hansard for the Act will not return any debates except by shear chance. An alternative search would be Peerage+Bill (with no mention of year) though in the case of this search the results would be wildly off the mark (mainly pages that happen to mention peerage and bill). I am open to suggestions, but I am doubtful if we can find an acceptable solution. Road Wizard (talk) 23:27, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The other problem which I hadn't realised until just now is that their records only go back to 2001 for the Commons and 1999 for the Lords. The way you've set the template up in your sandbox, though, it's an optional parameter, so we can simply not use it on articles where TWFY's archive isn't useful. You've also set it up so that we don't have to pass the exact name of the act as the search parameter, so if it works better to search for "Example Bill" instead of "Example Act", we can do that. I think the field will be most useful, though, for searching for discussion of an act after it's passed - look at Extradition Act 2003 for an example of that. Are you happy for it to be added on that basis? --HughCharlesParker (talk - contribs) 13:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Bear in mind that http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/ has older records; searches of the form http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/search/peerage+bill+1963 might work well. 79.67.93.239 (talk) 16:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

This discussion might be connected to a the very trivial template {{UK Parliament}} which is intended to link to TheyWorkForYou transcripts, and could be reprogrammed to link to the millbanksystems webpage for earlier transcripts with an if-statement based on year. The people behind millbanksystems can be asked to redirect template-generated URLs so that things work better. (This is not the case for the Statute Law Database, which definitely should be coded by statute_book_chapter rather than this ridiculous database generated activeTextDocId number!)

Ideally, the TheyWorkForYou website should be serving the wiki-links from the pages for maximum convenience. You can see how it would work on the page: http://www.undemocracy.com/securitycouncil/meeting_5962 (Try also clicking on one of the grey "Link to this" boxes), which takes you the far more technical {{UN document}} citation template, linking to undemocracy.com whose purpose is to overcome some significant barriers to on-line access. The issues with UK Parliament and UN Resolutions are related enough to learn from the different practices.

Searching for Bills is a really tricky prospect, as they are undated and several Bills can have the same name in different years before it finally becomes an Act. No mistake: This is a very important feature to have, to be able to know the versions and amendments of the Bill, and which factors were voted on before it became the law, because it tells you what the alternatives were. Take Freedom of Information Act 2000, for example. This list on the PublicWhip is of all the votes on the Bill, and tells you what could have been, and puts the names the MPs who made each aspect of the law happen. This is a vital part of the history on close votes. There are other cases like this on the PublicWhip website. (It would be fantastic if all the votes on a Bill that became an Act were described and cited on Wikipedia so it could be imported into PublicWhip, but this is probably not quite practical.)

If you do implement it with a search for the text "Something Something Bill", it needs to be filtered by date range from the start of the session (year) to the date of Royal Assent. Perhaps this ought to be an automatic search feature actually embedded in TheyWorkForYou, which would make the URLs to it naturally formed from the Wikipedia Title. Unfortunately that website doesn't have Bills and Acts as recognized objects (as it does for MP's names). It's a feature people more people should request.Goatchurch (talk) 17:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your extensive comments. I think I will have to be equally extensive in replying to them.

One of the key problems I have with adding links to search result pages is that if the results are notable within the context of the article they should be mentioned in the article and referenced. If they are not notable then what is the point with linking them? It could even encourage laziness, as what is the point in mentioning a subject in the article when a single click will provide the result in a search? I will go with whatever consensus decides on this, but I would urge caution in its use if nothing else.

There is no real gain in searching for modern hansard records of bills as this is already provided by the "History of passage through parliament" link (which also includes reports, copies of the bills at different stages and details of amendments both accepted and not-accepted). Some argument could be made for a search of the archived hansard at millbanksystems for older acts, but as Goatchurch pointed out many bills share the same name as they are not dated before they become Acts. As a side issue, some way of searching for a fixed title would be useful rather than a combination of words. Is it possible to set a link to search for "Peerage Act 1963" as a whole phrase rather than the individual words Peerage, Act and 1963?

Goatchurch, can you please expand on the comment on the Statute Law links "definitely should be coded by statute_book_chapter rather than this ridiculous database generated activeTextDocId number"? Why is the current system ridiculous, what benefit would linking by statute chapter bring and can you suggest a link format that would provide the correct result in this way? I don't want to sound negative but {{UK-SLD}} is used on over 250 articles - there has to be some genuine benefit to justify all those corrective edits. Road Wizard (talk) 21:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

←TheyWorkForYou is run by MySociety. I've mentioned this discussion on their developers-public mailing list; feel free to raise requests for assistance, or changes to the way their site works, there. Andy Mabbett (aka Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy Mabbett; Andy Mabbett's contributions 21:27, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Road Wizard that there's no point searching hansard for debates on bills before they are passed, since we already have that information from the history of passage through parliament link. I do think it's useful to provide a link to search hansard for debates about the acts after they're passed, though. 79.67.93.239 has suggested a site that has older records, so we could create an optional parameter with a switch to select between the Mill Bank Systems site and TWFY. What do people think about that? --HughCharlesParker (talk - contribs) 01:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Another thought - I see what Road Wizard means - any debates on the act after it passes should be cited in the discussion of an Act. I still think the search is useful, though, to see a list of relevant parliamentary debates. --HughCharlesParker (talk - contribs) 01:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

As I seem to be the only dissenting voice in this discussion I will withdraw my objections for now. As it will be an optional parameter we can always remove it later if a consensus forms against it. Road Wizard (talk) 20:43, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed - and, since the parameter's optional, we don't have to use it in the articles where it won't add anything. --HughCharlesParker (talk - contribs) 14:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I have added the millbank code and replaced the existing template. I am still not completely happy with the style, but I am sure that can be improved as time goes on. I will just do a quick sweep to see if any unforeseen problems have cropped up on the existing transclusions and then update the documentation. Road Wizard (talk) 17:02, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Coat of arms

The coat of arms in this template is anachronistic for any Acts before the ascension of Queen Victoria to the throne in 1837; see Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom. I would put date switches in, but the earlier coats of arms are without supporters. Thoughts anyone? — OwenBlacker (Talk) 22:03, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

If it is incorrect to use it on Acts before 1837 then it needs to be removed. As far as I can tell it is only there for decorative purposes, so I don't see any need to retain it. Unless someone has an objection I will remove it from the new proposal. We can always add it back in with an optional parameter if there are strong objections. Road Wizard (talk) 20:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather have an image in there; we should just make sure it's the right one! Infoboxes without images look for less appealing and draw the eye less (which is a bad thing, given they're intended to be a brief summary of information for users new to the topic. We should definitely add the image back, just with date switches so we can make it the right image for the right Act  :o) — OwenBlacker (Talk) 08:57, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I have replaced the active template but retained the previous image code. You are welcome to add in some code restriction to limit the appearance of the image if you wish. Regards. Road Wizard (talk) 17:05, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Would it be possible to give the option to choose between the coats of arms of the UK Parliament and other legislatures in Britain, in order that the Infobox can be used for legislation from those bodies as well? There are a few Scottish statutes which already use this Infobox (e.g. Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002, Education (Additional Support for Learning) (Scotland) Act 2004) but the coat of arms belongs to the UK Parliament, and therefore is inappropriate - File:Scottish royal coat of arms.svg would be better. I don't know how to do this myself. Thanks! Johnhousefriday (talk) 19:28, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] statutelaw

Hello there; I don't know how, but can we change that long sentence about the active version of the legislation? "Text of current statute from statutelaw.gov" is sufficient, and will fit on two lines. Wikidea 11:19, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Terriotorial extent

I think that this should be replaced with three separate fields (or these should be added as alternatives to that field, if that causes less disruption):

1. Original extent
2. Where in force now?
3. Where repealed now?

The extent of Acts changes. They get extended to jurisdictions to which they did not originally apply. They get repealed in some of the jurisdictions to which they apply, but not others. Also a lot of UK legislation has been extended to and repealed in various Commonwealth countries.

At the moment it is impossible to explain this using the infobox. James500 (talk) 00:53, 5 February 2009 (UTC)