 | This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spain, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Spain on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks. | |  B | This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. | | Mid | This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. | | |  | Western Sahara was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: September 5, 2006 |  | This article is about a person, place, or concept whose name is originally rendered in the Berber script; however, the article does not have that version of its name in the lead paragraph. Anyone who is knowledgeable enough with the original language is invited to assist in adding the Berber script. | Archives of older discussions may be found here: [edit] Codes and "minor" state Please stop Since there is no definition of a "minor" state, there is no need to put it there. Is Algeria "minor?" Iran? It's a nonsense phrase, so it should be deleted. As for making "MA" a country code for Western Sahara, it's not. MA is a code for Morocco, and so it is in Morocco's infobox. EH was created for Western Sahara, so that is its country code. As far as the territory being occupied, this is a clear fact and the position of the United Nations; it is also mentioned in the article in other places. -Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC) - It does not need a definition to be in the article. A minor state is used as opposed to super-power states, permanent members of the security council, ... etc. As to the EH domain, it clearly states the .eh tld is intended for WS but it is not assigned, ".MA" being the one used in the territory. The same thing applies for the currency, the MAD is the currency of Morocco, but that is also the currency you will find in use in the territory. The same thing goes for the IAC 212, the Time zone +0 UTC, etc. They are the ones used in the territory. These things have been a matter of hotted debate before and they settled on the way they have been before you started tempering with them. As to your ridiculous claim of the UN considering the territory as occupied, I already explained to you the difference between a UN position through the security council that is reiterated again and again, and a voting poll in 1979 of the Algerian-Cuban drafted document, that has no obligation on the UN. The "Zionism=Racism" example is the brightest one for you to understand it. I will revert to the version that was in use before the anon IP started this mess.--A Jalil (talk) 14:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- It does Since "minor states" doesn't mean anything, you can't use it in this article; it's nonsense. What states that ".ma" is being used in the territory? Do you have any evidence of this at all? The same thing does not apply to currency, since there is no administrative body that assigns currencies to regions. To ask which currency is used in a region is different than to ask which top-level domain name has been assigned to the region; the former is defined entirely by usage, the latter is defined entirely by standards. Western Sahara is clearly occupied, as the article itself still states; I'm not going through this with you again. -Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ah we're back to having fun again arguing about trivialities. Minor states is indeed a value judgement - although arguably the states recognizing are largely minor on the global arena (Algeria is not a big newsmaker per se). But in the interest of neutrality, merely noting "African, Asian, and Latin American" states seems reasonable. At the same time, if Koavf gets to bleat on about minor, it seems reasonable that controlled be used rather than occupied. Same standards on language. (collounsbury (talk) 16:47, 6 May 2008 (UTC))
- Evidence on .ma usage would be found with sites for entities ostensibly domiciled in Western Sahara provinces using .ma. It is trivially easy to find that. Koavf's immature partisanship notwithstanding. (collounsbury (talk) 16:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC))
- What is an example of a website with an .ma domain name which has the server in Western Sahara? « D. Trebbien (talk) 23:40 2008 May 5 (UTC)
- Good question. Since effectively all internet service to the Western Sahara is via Maroc Telecom or other Moroccan operators, one would expect that most servers would be located in Moroccan territory (ex-WS provinces), largely in the Casa-Rabat area. Technically I am unaware of any way to determine where the physical server is actually located (versus the service). Presumably the Regional Investment Office of Laayoune (http://www.laayouneinvest.ma/fr/index.asp) may have its server physically in Laayoune. Other similar offices may also. It strikes me as useful for the article to indicate like country code, most sites use the Moroccan address (.ma). Polisario partisans may not like that, but its effective reality. (collounsbury (talk) 16:47, 6 May 2008 (UTC))
- Country codes I find it reasonable that there are .ma sites hosted in Western Sahara, but I also do not know of any. That having been said, it is still the case that the country code for Western Sahara is .eh, and not .ma. Cf. East Timor for instance; where a code has been assigned, but another is used (in addition to the new one.) -Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Poor Citation I would like to see a more credible citation than what is used as a justification for listing Spanish as one of Western Sahara's "Recognised regional languages". By the way, you have a typo; it should be "Recognized". The citation is "Instituto Cervantes" http://hispanismo.cervantes.es/faq.asp#105 which is a somewhat sketchy web page with several grammatical errors itself and barely mentions Western Sahara as a Spanish speaking country. The CIA World Factbook on the other hand doesn't mention Spanish as a language in Western Sahara (even though the Spanish did attempt a colony), so I have to think that the Spanish speaking population is quite minimal. The Factbook lists Hassaniya Arabic and Moroccan Arabic as the countries two languages https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/wi.html. Please find a more suitable reference that gives an idea about the size of the Spanish speaking population or consider removing it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.181.250.7 (talk) 16:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC) Just a note that recognised is an acceptable spelling, it's the non-American spelling (ie British and elsewhere in the world influenced by British English) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.189.194.185 (talk) 03:25, 3 November 2008 (UTC) -
- Spanish should be deleted. Morocco doesn't assign any specific legislation to Western Sahara, so the only officially recognized language there is the one recognized in Morocco, and that is Arabic (note that although French is treated as a co-official language in every way, it does not have legal status as such, and Spanish, however respected and sometimes considered the fourth language of the country, after Arabic, French and Berber, hasn't either). The Polisario may or may not consider Spanish as a co-official language, but that would only refer to the Polisario-controlled zones and has no effect on the territory depicted on the map. Unless, of course, you consider that, since the political status is not resolved, Spanish colonial law still applies legally, but that has no practical effect. So much for the official status; for the language in use, wether recognized or not, I can tell that many older sahrawis still speak fluently Spanish, but of course they have no opportunity to use it anywhere unless they meet a Spanish tourist. We should put better "Arabic and Hassaniya", the latter is an Arabic dialect/language which is the mother tongue of all Sahrawis and is recognized more or less in the same way as the Maghrebi Arabic in (the rest of) Morocco, i.e. it can be used in oral official instances, however it is almost never written. --Ilyacadiz (talk) 20:42, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Severely misplaced icon in google earth The icon for this article is way out of place in Google Earth. It is in the middle of a zoo in Madrid, Spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.253.180.125 (talk) 19:13, 7 February 2009 (UTC) [edit] Language hello, after some months of no answer to the Language question, I've made the changes myself - deleting Spanish as a recognised language in Western Sahara and putting Arabic and Hassaniya instead. My reasoning: Arabic is the only official language in both Morocco and for the Polisario Front, so whatever the outcome of the dispute, it would be considered the official language of the territory. For Hassaniya, I would suggest to delete the word "Recognised", but that word somehow doesn't show up when editing, maybe I'm just somewhat unhandy. Anyhow, although Hassaniya has never been recognised (nor standarized as far as I'm aware) for writing, it is commonly spoken among officials of the Polisario Front, and also among the CORCAS members, who are ethnic sahrawis recognised by Morocco as representants of the territory. So regardless of who has sovereignty over the territory, Hassaniya is used among the local authorities of either side. Spanish, on the other hand, was the official language until 1975, but it can't considered no longer as such, because Spain relinquished the territory and does not recognise its residents as Spanish citizens (except for those who had this status before 1975). So, if Spanish law does not apply there, not even from the Spanish point of view, Spanish cannot be considered an official language there. I apologize beforehand if anybody thinks that these changes are politically sensitive and shouldn't have been made, I have no intention to interfere in the discussion of sovereignty. Thanks for any comment.--Ilyacadiz (talk) 21:49, 9 February 2009 (UTC) -
- Perfectly correct in removing Spanish (which while still present has no particular legal status). However, calling Hassaniyah a "recognized language" is incorrect. It is certainly the dominant actual spoken language / dialect, but it also has no particular legal status (but of course is evidently vastly more prevalent than Spanish). (collounsbury (talk) 21:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC))
- I agree. Hassaniya is not recognized. It is not common policy to put in the infobox terms as "spoken languages", right? As far as I can see, only languages with legal status are shown in these infoboxes. So I'll delete Hassaniya. --Ilyacadiz (talk) 21:59, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
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- (I posted here the following message written on my talkpage, because I consider it interesting for the debate - I hope this is no violation of rules.--Ilyacadiz (talk) 14:43, 1 March 2009 (UTC))
- Hello, I just want to state that I consider removing Spanish as an official language is a mistake. Spanish is still in used in Republica Arabe Saharawi, and the Frente Polisario uses Spanish in all its communications. By the way, Frente Polisario is an anacronym from Spanish. I wonder why they prefer to use Spanish and not Arabic, English or French. Based in the following from you "... My reasoning: Arabic is the only official language in both Morocco and for the Polisario Front, so whatever the outcome of the dispute, it would be considered the official language of the territory", shows to me that there is a lack of research and therefore this information is not accurate and does not reflect the reality of language use in RASD. On the other hand, Spanish is still taught in schools by volunteers and Spanish-speaking saharawies who want to preserve it.RASD looks for recognition in Latin America and they have sent representatives who speak and communicate in Spanish only. I think this is a very important fact that add some value to the language topic in RASD.
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- It is true that you asked for feedback and nobody replied back with information. Then, I understand you had to take the decision yourself.
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- I want to request a change about language status, and ask you to add Spanish at least as a second language spoken in the RASD.
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- Regards, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Niconinis (talk • contribs) 09:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
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- Hello Niconini, thanks for the comment. I agree that the Frente Polisario bears a Spanish name and that many of its officials speak perfectly Spanish - but that it inself does not mean that Spanish is a language of the Sahrawi Republic (RASD). The Constitution is very clear about that: "Arabic language is the national official language" (art. 3). The widespread use of an European language is very common in many countries which do not recognise this language as official (nearly every official document in Morocco can be found in French and there is absotutely no civil servant who does not speak fluently French, but French is not an official language). So much for the official consideration of Spanish in the RASD. As for the "reality of language use in RASD", which you refer to, you might have noticed, if you ever visited the refugee camps, that the big majority of the population does not speak any Spanish - only the Polisario officials do, and translators must accompany the visitors as to allow communication. Of course Spanish is taught in schools there, just as English would be taught in Spain or France. So Spanish can be considered the second language of the refugee population, as it might be in the United States, but the Second Language is normally NOT shown in the infobox.
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- If you have any sources which say otherwise, please tell me, you might prove right after all, but sources are needed. Cheers.--Ilyacadiz (talk) 14:43, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Coords {{editsemiprotected}} Remove {{coord missing}} and add {{coord|25|N|13|W|display=title|type:country}} 79.64.154.181 (talk) 15:36, 11 March 2009 (UTC) - I have unprotected. Please make the edit yourself. Thanks, — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:31, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
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- it is vital as both Michael Snow and Jimmy Wales have send a letter for volunteers to come up with new ideas and possibly new strategie in order to make Wikipedia a reliable and accurate source of information, having said that i have followed the discussion related to the Sahara conflict , although i can see different views , for instance about the language that should be used in the Western sahara region, although we have to take into account that Sahraouis speak , in general, classical Arabic , and they have their own dialect called Hassania , which is ot not far awawy from Arabic but possibly a bit hard to understand because of the strong accent of Sahrahouis as to French or Spanish languages , it is worth mentioning that these two languages became a fait accompli in the area because of the presence of French protoctorate in the south of Morocco and Spanish colonization in the nothern part of Morocco up to the borders with Mauritania , so obviously the main language was and should remain arabic , in addition to the hassania which is a local slung .
- Now this isssue should not be a matter of discussion at all, but equally we would like to see Wikipedia as accurate and credible in its outlook and the way it does reflect facts and the reality of events , from this point of view it seems inappropriate to put the flag of such coutry that does not exist in practice the Sahraouis are besed either in the Shara region within the Moroccan borders , or those who are living in the refugee camps in Tindouf in Algeria , it is perfectly true that an organisation called the "Polisario front" is in conflict with Morocco about the future of W sahara , but in practical terms there is no state ; first of all according to international law a state is defined by two main factors ie: people and territory, secondly a recognition by the international community , up to now the polisario front is still based in Algeria and Sahraouis in the camps in the eyes of interrnational law are refugees , in addition to that there is no territory which is the main factor for any nation or people to claim an independant entity.
finally the United natons organization does not recognize the so -called RASD and most of the capitals of the world , in its resolution the UNSC talks about the polisario front. - Now it is obvious , and according to the argument above , in addition that Wikipedia is willing to maintain its credibility in terms of giving the right information, it will be wise to get rid of the flag until the conflict is over , if the Sahrouis managed to convince the international community and establish their own state in the W Sahara region then it will be appropriate to put the flag simply because we will witness the creation of a new state , otherwise i believe that the flag in question should be removed for the sake of credibilty that we all are trying hard to maintain it . Terry Batcher::::: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.248.121.205 (talk) 11:58, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Almoravids and Almohads "In the Middle Ages, the Almohads and Almoravids movements and dynasties both originated in the Saharan regions and were able to control the area." The Almohad region of origin was in the Atlas Mountains, The Almoravid came from the region round Wadi Noun (near Goulimin). That's not Western Sahara.S711 (talk) 20:05, 11 October 2009 (UTC) - It doesn't say Western Sahara, it says "in the Saharan regions". I think the point was to mention two dynasties which controlled the area, regardless of their origin. ¦ Reisio (talk) 21:37, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
The statement is a) unsourced and b) incorrect. Atlas mountains is the the origin of the Almohads not "Saharan regions". That the reason why I reverted your revert. S711 (talk) 11:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC) - Of course the Atlas mountains are sort of part of the Sahara… part of the range even being explicitly called the "Saharan Atlas". Not sure what you're thinking. ¦ Reisio (talk) 02:37, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Another revert. No, the Almohads did not come from the Saharan Atlas. That's the Eastern Atlas in Algeria. The High Atlas (the Almohads come from Tin Mal) is not part of the Saharan region. Completely different climate, completely different landscape, in Central Morocco, but if you think it is Saharan, please cite a source.S711 (talk) 12:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC) - I didn't say they came from the Saharan Atlas. Find someone else who thinks the area doesn't qualify as "Saharan", or change "originated in" to "originated near" — no need to delete it all (not for any reason on the whole you've stated thus far, anyways). ¦ Reisio (talk) 16:53, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
I have to agree that S711 that lumping the Atlas Mtns. in with the Sahara is pretty misleading. Especially in the context of Western Sahara - they're opposite directions, Almohads would've reached the area from the north while Almoravids would've come from the south. If you're trying to keep it to one sentence you could just describe them both as berber dynasties that conquered the region and leave their origins out of it, anyone interested can follow the links. Kmusser (talk) 17:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC) - Like I said, change a word or two and it's all over with. ¦ Reisio (talk) 18:49, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
You write "Find someone else who thinks the area doesn't qualify as "Saharan"". It is the other way araound. If you write that the High Atlas is a Saharan region, you will have to find a reliable source that it is. You cannot, bacause it is not.S711 (talk) 09:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC) - Never said it was. ¦ Reisio (talk) 15:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
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