| advertise add site services publishers database health videos | ![]() | about toolbar stats live show health store more stuff JOIN/LOGIN |
Ethical questions and unintended consequences... currentclinicalpractice.c... | Unintended Consequences: Children's Health and Diet renoalternativemedicine.c... | Unintended Consequences cranialtech.com | Talking Watch, Talking Watches, Talking Clock, Talking Bible, Talking... independentliving.com |
[edit] Topics from 2004-2006[edit] Wasn't ...Wasn't the phrase "unintended consequences" popularized by Karl Popper's book The Open Society and Its Enemies in the 1940s? If so, maybe that should be mentioned in this article. -- Mike Hardy
[edit] examplesi think some of the examples should be removed for the following reasons... Gun Control - as far as i can see there's still no reference for this. there are numerous reason why crime is higher in new jersey and Washington DC than Switzerland's and Vermont, to focus on it being an unintended consequence of gun control is, i believe, misleading. This example should be removed? Aid to poor countries - while aid to poor country many increase poverty i don't believe it is for the reason stated. i read (although i can't find the reference!) that poverty increases birth rates as people have more kids in the hope that some survive. the idea that people in countries reliant on aid 'breed' as much as the resource allow is, i think, nonsense. again this example should be removed?
[edit] firearm ownership"In countries where firearm ownership is or was recently legal, restrictions on legal ownership of firearms has been associated with increases in personal crimes as criminals have less to fear from victims who are more likely to be unarmed." I support Gun Rights, yet I have never heard credible claims to support the above. I would like to for this claim to be documented. All that would be necessary for this section of the article to stand would be one case where this is true. If such a case cannot be presented, I would like to see it removed until such evidence is provided. LegCircus 20:05, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC) [edit] SaddamThe example is out of place. Saddam never attacked the United States in any way. [edit] Low Quality of Articlemaybe it's just me, but i think this article seems original research-y and never really gets at the nub of the issue - the law of unintended consequences (as I understood it - maybe I'm wrong) is that a programme intended to have a certain corrective social effect in the community and which (ipso facto) doesn't reflect the current interests of the society when put out to general application in that society will tend to have, predominantly, another unintended effect whcih more properly reflects the values of that society. It's not just that any action has at least one unintended consequence. So, as the classic example, the imposition of a minimum wage is intended to make the poorest members of society better off, but instead it creates unemployment and/or drives up the cost of living, making those members actually worse off. There is clearly material (Merton, Levitt etc) which could and should be used to cite examples. Many of the examples cited, such as Royal hunting forests, and coral reefs made of sunk warships, are simply silly. -- ElectricRay 23:29, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I was thinking the same thing; if one doesn't agree with a term or concept, don't try to write a Wiki entry about something you don't agree with. It won't go well. 70.61.22.110 19:11, 29 October 2007 (UTC)Ubiquitousnewt Unintended consequences are often the result of looking either at the perceived costs ignoring the possible benefits or the benefits ignoring the costs, and starting an action or policy that gives the opposite of the desired effect. There should be better examples of this. As of Oct 2009 most examples given still meet ElectricRay's assessment of "simply silly". Naaman Brown (talk) 13:19, 16 October 2009 (UTC) [edit] An article about "Unintended consequence"??I think this article must be titled "Law of Unintended Consequences" and by no means "Unintended consequence". --euyyn 23:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Does this deserve an article?I think the said ' law of unintended consequences ' could deserve an article (an economic article), but by no means the subject "unintended consequence" does. It doesn't even deserve, in my opinion, a dictionary entry, as an "unintended consequence" isn't but a "consequence which is not intended". I dislike this article. We need to reengineer it. --euyyn 00:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Comments on movingSeeing this talk page is rather dead, I'm going to be bold and move tis article to "Law of Unintended Consequences". I'll add a redirect from this title to there, so nobody will be lost. Any opposition? --euyyn 21:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC) [edit] A great article - thanks!I think this article is great! It told me a lot about something I wasnt even concious of before. Hopefully I can use these ideas in the future. Thanks to the people or person who wrote it. Perhaps this is related to the theory of errors and reliability engineering. I think this article should stay as a separate article. [edit] Delete first two or three paragraphs?I think these paragraphs should be deleted: '"An unintended consequence comes about when a mechanism that has been installed in the world with the intention of producing one result is used to produce a different (and often conflicting) result. The notion of "gaming the system" illustrates the idea of an unintended consequence. One "games a system" (for example, the tax code) when one acts in such a way that one gains tax advantages by exploiting a tax rule that was intended for some other purpose. Similarly, computer viruses, worms, and other such plagues are unintended consequences of the way certain computer systems are designed. Spam is an unintended consequence of the way the email system works.' 'It's important to distinguish between unintended consequences in this sense and simple historical contingencies. It would not be appropriate to characterize—as this page does below—a negative side effect of a drug as an unintended consequence. It certainly is true that negative side effects are consequences that were not intended. But much of what happens in the world is not (directly) intended. The term unintended consequence should be reserved for the exploitation of a deliberately designed and deployed mechanism to produce an effect that the mechanism is capable of producing but which it was not intended to produce. See the Museum of Unintended Consequences for more examples.' 'Much of the rest of this page takes a broader view of unintended consequence and would (inappropriately) apply the term to virtually any (unexpected) historical contingency."' The paragraphs should be deleted as the assertions within them are not true or are nonsensical, and I've never heard of "gaming a system" before which may be an invention of the writer. Any objections? [edit] Article is in a bad stateThis article is in really bad shape. The first three paragraphs are talking about how the rest of the article is wrong. Also, the Examples section seems to be written by people pushing some agendas. --Apoc2400 08:47, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I concur. The first three paragraphs were written by a person with a particular uncommon interpretation of the words unforseen consequences. I'm going to move the first three paragraphs down to the end of the article, and try to make it less POV. --lk 15:30, 14 October 2006 (UTC) [edit] Topics from 2007-2008[edit] Law or Not LawI tried to clarify the good and bad reasons for calling this a "law". I [removed] someone's text that said roughly "well this isn't law as in legislation" saying instead "well this isn't scientific law". Hope that caused no offense but I think I got their intent and made it a little better. Law has two broad meanings anyway: (1) civil legislation, and (2) scientific law. No one ever claimed it was legistated law, that was rather obvious, so I thought it better to merely discuss it's weakness as scientific law. At the same time it has some of the properties of a law, and I hope I highlighted them well: the consistent expectation of inconsistency, and a principle those with power would do well to heed, almost as if it were a rule imposed on them. Bob Stein - VisiBone 12:58, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
[User Boscon (talk) 13:53, 26 December 2008 (UTC)<Forthcoming publication, 'The Sod Superstition', David Boswell>
[edit] HistoryI thought the Scottish Enlightenment mention deserved some slight elaboration, and anyway belonged closer to Merton's mention. Together they cohesively introduce the history. The original paragraph where Scottish Enlightenment appeared (at least before I edited it) seemed to deal with the law/not law question. [edit] Removing memetics categoryI am removing the memetics category from this article since you learn no more about the article's contents from the category and v.v. Since so many things may be memes we should try to keep the category closely defined in order to remain useful. Hope you're okay with that. The link to meme would be enough I suggest. Facius 10:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC) [edit] Prune down on number of examplesHere are the examples as the exist now. Can we discuss about what should stay and what should go? --lk (talk) 06:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC) Examples of Unexpected Benefits:
Examples of Perverse Results:
I'm suspicious of the minimum wage one: It appears to be just a survey of people, not an actual proof. 68.39.174.238 (talk) 22:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
My vote is for a short list of clear examples. Streisand Effect is a recent term for an internet phenomenon and sounds like an ephermeral TMZ style catch phrase that may not last long. The first example I recall for "an attempt to censor or ban something resulting in increased notoriety and distribution of the thing censored or banned" was when D.H. Lawrence's "Lady Chatterly's Lover" was "banned in Boston" insuring it was read by more people than ever. Encyclopedic should mean a few widely recognised examples illustrating the general understanding of the meaning of "Unintended Consequences", leaving application to controversial subjects like abortion or gun control to the soapboxes on those subjects. People look to an encyclopedia first to clarify understanding of general principles about a subject. Naaman Brown (talk) 15:25, 8 October 2009 (UTC) [edit] Please no minimum wageMinimum wage was listed as a perverse example, but it's a very bad one. It's very controversial, without a good empirical study showing a strong negative effect. For example most studies listed in Minimum_wage#Empirical_studies show percentage decrease in hours worked lower than percentage increase in hourly wages, what means that people will earn a bit more total money while working slightly less, hardly a major perverse consequence. Even if the effect was in its totality somewhat negative, it's just too weak and controversial to be worth the mention. There are just so many better examples than that, with strong and clear negative effects, there's no reason to use a weak one like that.
[edit] No Bastiat?WTF wikipedians? Ce qu'on voit et ce qu'on ne voit pas —189.6.28.35 (talk) 18:18, 25 December 2008 (UTC) [edit] Topics from 2009-2010[edit] Woulda/coulda/shoulda still needs sources18-Jan-2009: The article, up into 2009, has used nebulous wording (such as "one might consider" or "students of history often conjecture"), as if writing the article entirely with hypothetical phrases could dodge the need for sources, because none of those phrases actually claims to be true. I re-worded the top intro section with more direct phrasing, but beware other phrases suggesting that if something is the case, or if one could group the data, or using a particular perspective...then voila, the conclusion. The article has seemed to be a likely candidate as the wannabe "poster child" for policy WP:WEASEL. It really tries to dodge any concrete facts, while just speculating about everything. Perhaps back in 2004, articles could avoid citing sources, as a cop-out, when the wording was all hypothetical phrases, but too many people have complained. I suggest tying all wording & examples to cited sources, rather than claim that if a particular something were assumed, then the article could state a calculated conclusion. Unsourced writing here is too easily slanted as "POV pushing" for how something has failed compared to the hypothetical intentions, none of the comparisons tied to actual sources. -Wikid77 (talk) 02:43, 18 January 2009 (UTC) [edit] Too many examples, many controversial; cite from reliable source required for inclusionIt's been long noted on this talk page that the article has too many examples, and many are controversial too boot. We can't seem to get consensus on what to trim down. Therefore, unless there is some good reason otherwise, examples should henceforth be cited to a reliable source to show that it is a) notable, and b) widely accepted as an example of an unintended consequence. From now on, do not add (or add back) any examples that are not cited to a reliable source. LK (talk) 02:22, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
OK. How's this?
Why is the controversial abortion effect kept and the controversial gun control effect dropt?Naaman Brown (talk) 22:28, 23 October 2009 (UTC) [edit] Yet Another ExampleIt would be a witty addition to include Kennesaw County's Gun Law under 'Uninteded Consequence'. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennesaw,_Georgia#Gun_law —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.157.64.8 (talk) 11:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC) [edit] Gun control citationsChecking out the gun control paragraph, it seems that both of the references are just links to the Gun politics article. Moreover, the references in that article re: use of knives and other alternate weapons in response to gun control directly contradict the paragraph. Controversy aside, the paragraph seems topical enough, but I don't think it belongs on Wikipedia without references to a reliable primary source, so I've gone ahead and removed it for now. 85.64.3.6 (talk) 01:11, 11 September 2009 (UTC) [edit] Rabbit citationAn anonymous user tried to add the following citation for the rabbit example:
Unfortunately, the URL leads not to an article by Alfred Dunning, but to someone's summary of it. In addition, the summary article does not contain statements that back up the statements in the wikipedia text. I have deleted it, as irrelevant.--Toddy1 (talk) 15:24, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
[edit] "blowback"The covert ops term "blowback" is related to "hoist by one's own petard" or "victim of one's own device (infernal device or mal engine)"; the medieval petardier would nail a petard (gunpowder bomb) to a castle gate, light the match (fuse), then run like heck; they were often killed by the explosion intended to breech the gate. Reference to this unintended consequence dates back to the days of Shakespeare. Research for citable sources needed. But the Shakespearean "hoist by one's own petard" is the earliest recoginition of unintended consequences that I can recall. Naaman Brown (talk) 14:41, 8 October 2009 (UTC) Second thoughts. Covert Ops "blowback" may be an undesirable outcome, but like the medieval petard hoisting the petardier it is a reasonably predictable possible outcome that could be considered aforehand; such an outcome is often the result of looking only at possible benefits ignoring or downplaying possible costs, or vice versa, weighing costs ignoring benefits. An unintended consequence is a consequence not the same as the one intended, and usually one that is forseeable only with the proverbial 20-20 hindsight. The introduction of rabbits to Australia and kudzu to the American South fit this model. Naaman Brown (talk) 02:11, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Law of Unintended ConsequencesI've read this talk discussion, but I don't see how Murphy's Law is any different from this one. Neither are legislative or scientific laws, they are merely observations of human behavior. Furthermore, the second reference of this article states, "The law of unintended consequences, often cited but rarely defined, is that actions of people—and especially of government—always have effects that are unanticipated or unintended." If the sources call it a law, Wikipedia should call it a law too. To deviate would be original research. Mac520 (talk) 19:53, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
Categories: Wikipedia pages referenced by the press | Start-Class sociology articles | High-importance sociology articles | Start-Class Philosophy articles | Mid-importance Philosophy articles | Start-Class ethics articles | Mid-importance ethics articles | Ethics task force articles | Unassessed field Systems articles | Unassessed Systems articles | Start-Class Systems articles | Mid-importance Systems articles | Systems articles with no comments | Unassessed history articles | Unknown-importance history articles | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ↑ top of page ↑ | about thumbshots |