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[edit] NamesPoles refer to all Germans "Shvabs" or "Shkops", (both terms being extremely derogatory); not just to Ukrainian ones, of whom knowledge in Poland is practically non - existent. The official slavonic name for Germans - Nemce, or Niemcy meant: "mutes" or "dumb people". [edit] Suevi = Sueones = Svear?The Svear of Sweden and the Suevi/Suebi/Suabi were all closely related Germanic people. What evidence or probability exists of the Suevi and the Svear being identical, i.e., a single tribe, during the first few centuries A.D.?
[edit] Suebi tied to Sorbi?The tribal names (etymology) for Suebis and Swedes are identical, their homeland was along the German Baltic coasts and perhaps are connected with Sweden by Jutland (Denmark) and the island of Bornholm. But to think about the Suebi may have possible Slavic origins is another possibility to rule out. The Sorbs or Sorbians are West Slavic-speaking inhabitants of modern-day Saxony in eastern Germany. They are closely related to the Serbs of Serbia in the Balkans, the two tribes separated when another moved south in the 7th century AD. For the Germanic Suebi to have a partial Slavic component if not by similar enonyms is in need for further investigation before any inclusion of my ethnological theory, it's what I have in mind. + 71.102.2.206 (talk) 05:25, 30 March 2009 (UTC) [edit] "Sueve" or "Suebic"?Which is the better adjectival form in English? --Wetman 00:00, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] ambuguity of Drususthe link of Drusus must be "de-ambuguiated"
[edit] Tacitus' "misunderstanding"The following is incomprehensible without some enlarging: "[Tacitus] included all North Germanic and East Germanic tribes that were not directly annexed by the Romans, but this was due to a misunderstanding." What misunderstanding? What then were the actual facts, according to modfern historians? --Wetman 09:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC) [edit] Drusus securing the frontierThe statement is made that the Suebi remained a threat until Drusus secured the frontier. I can't imagine what that can mean; it is an oversimplification by far. Which Suebi did he secure it against? Troubles on the Suebian border went on and on right to the end of the empire. The gains of Drusus were soon nullified; his brother Tiberius had to campaign again. Shortly the Marcomanni required military operations and they were under the name of Suebi. That region between the Rhine and the Danube was the most heavily fortified with 3 or more big bases, walls and river commands. If the border was secure, why maintain this apparatus? Well, I looked at the citation on this and it requires me to learn Swedish and buy access to the Swedish national encyclopedia! I bet, even if I did so, I would not find the statement there and if I did it would not mean what it implies in the article, that Drusus achieved a permanent security of the Rhine-Danube border against the Suebi on the other side. So, I am taking the liberty of changing a couple of words to make it fit.Dave 19:18, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The word ethnicHello Wetman. This is just a theoretical observation; I don't yet see where it impacts the article seriously, but "ethnic" even though you don't like it has a fairly concrete meaning in English and often nothing else will do. The classical writers certainly believed in it and used it often, and it formed their observations and beliefs, so we can't just drop it from the classics and from modern English. I understand why you don't like it as it has all sorts of unscientific and often deadly connotations and denotations and is vague and imprecise. Nevertheless we use it and so did the ancients. So any identity is likely to be a "race" or a "people" or a "tribe" on any basis whatever and it is up to us to figure out what they meant. We can't just excise ethnic from English.Dave 19:48, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The polaritiesRemoved from article: "as it was intended as a hortatory essay for a Roman public that set up cultural polarities," Objection your honor! The prosecutor is leading the witness! In the first place we have no idea at all what you mean by hortatory essay. And second, how can you say what it was intended for? That is a long and arduous task of scholarship for which you have not given a source. If it is your opinion, well, it is an interesting opinion. Publish it somewhere else, tip me off, and I will make sure it gets in there. As for the Roman public setting up the polarities, really, that goes too far. You are giving sociological conjectures as the reason why the words of Tacitus might not be taken at face value nowadays, thus involving yourself in cultural relativism. We don't care if he or they happened to be bipolar or if this condition mandated a hortatory approach, what we want to know is how trustworthy are the statements of Tacitus with regard to the truth. He himself admitted that he was relying on different sources with contradictory stories. You make it sound as though just now after 2000 years we are discovering that because of the sociology Tacitus can't be trusted, a fact never ever revealed before in the long history of Tacitean scholarship. Really.Dave 23:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
PS: the rest of it does not make any sense either: ", but it is now read with increasing caution for its passing remarks on geography and ethnology; nevertheless," Why would the caution be any greater now than it ever was? Are you trying to say the students should not necessarily take it at face value? That's an editorial opinion and is not necessary. If the topic is the unreliability of Tacitus' Germania it seems to me you would want to take that up under Tacitus' Germania. I don't think we are neglecting the problems in the sources. Its nothing new. They've always been there. Tacitus' remarks have been passing around for a couple of thousand years. You fail to present enough detail to make your assertions anything more than your opinion on Tacitus. And anyway anyone who reads the Germania from the beginning is already tipped off by Tacitus himself that he does not have a consistent picture.Dave 00:16, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The modern viewI removed this for now: Modern historians[1] consider this an over-simplification.[2] What it seems to say is exactly the opposite of what the scholars think. They think Tacitus has too many tribes in the Suebi. Thus Tacitus' view is not over-simple but over-elaborate, implying that the scholars have a view yet more elaborate of which Tacitus' is an oversimplification. I suppose you could argue that Tacitus is being oversimple in being overelaborate. This seems rather indirect to me. Now, the reference is on the oversimplification. What oversimplification? You have not in any way said and so the reader has to read the 2 volumes to find out what you mean. Unfortunately they are in German, so he has to learn German. We expect too much of him, don't you think? Moreover, the volumes are presented as "The modern view." Oh really? Is there any other or is it all there in those two volumes? Do they present one view or many? By what world-wide authority did it get to be "the"? This is really a weasel word, isn't it? You are trying to weasel out of saying anything.Dave 01:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC) [edit] Repetitious or wrong textI removed this: Tacitus hypothesized that other tribes emanated from it, such as the Quadi and the Marcomanni and probably also the Hermunduri.[2] The Suebi tribal group also included the Alamanni and the Langobards,[3] but whether the latter group were part of the Suebi is doubtful.[2] In the 1st century AD, the Suebi were concentrated at the Elbe river, but the Huns would make some of them cross the Rhine and reach the Iberian Peninsula[3]. Tacitus makes no such implication and the on-line Britannica - what we can see of it without buying - does not mention the topic. As for the Swedish ref, most of us can't read that so I don't know what it does say. If it says Tacitus says these tribes "come from" the the Suebi in the narrow sense, it is wrong. More generally, the problem with hypothesizing that all these tribes come from Caesar's Suebi is that first of all Tacitus does not take that view and second Suebia is a very large territory, over half of Germany. Although you can argue that the Marcomanni and Quadi came downstream from Caesar's Suebi, you can't deal at all with Suiones, the Balts and the Finno-Ugrians in this way and have no choice but to arbitrarily reject all parts of Tacitus except those that fit that narrow hypothesis; hence, the need to invent a great skepticism of Tacitus. But if Tacitus is unreliable in those parts, why would he be reliable in all the rest? We need to take the most general and open interpretation here and in fact all the articles on the Balts take Tacitus seriously about the Aestii and the etymologists do connect Suebi with Suiones. So, whatever the prehistoric migrational situation was we can't assume it all happened just before Caesar got there. Either we just throw Tacitus totally out as some kind of hortatory propaganda or we have to consider everything he says. I don't say we can't find evidence to dispute it. But in fact Tacitus corresponds more or less to Ptolemy and the other sources, which I will be bringing in below. As for the part about the Huns, well, that information is covered in the parts of the article that deal with that time, which is at the very end of the classical Suebic identity. Understand, the population of the Suebi did not suddenly vanish, they only started assuming other identites, such as Alamannic, Alsatian, Bavarian, Swiss, eventually Austrian, what have you. In any case only some of them were concentrated on the Elbe; that is, the statement takes the narrow view. On to the rest of the article.Dave 15:51, 14 October 2007 (UTC) [edit] Talessman's mapMr Talessman: what your map's contribution? There are better executed and more precise maps already in the article.Andrarias (talk) 04:58, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] SuppressedThe following sourced information might be valuable, though it's been deleted twice: John of Biclarum, however, places the Suebic conversion later and ascribes it, not to a Suebe, but to a Visigoth, placing it alongside that of the Goths, which occurred under Reccared I in 587–589. John of Biclarum might not be any more credible than Isidore of Seville, but wise readers of Wikipedia don't neglect to read the Talk pages. --Wetman (talk) 09:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] The Second Council of Braga and The ConversionWell, I`m a little upset now -and when I say little I mean it-. Recently I modified the article, adding a reference to the Second Council of Braga. It was a catholic council celebrated the Spanish Era 610, i.e. 572 A.D., under king Miro. Here is the headline "CONCILIUM BRACARENSE SECUNDUM DUODECIM EPISCOPORUM habitum anno secundo regis Mironis, die Kalendarum Iuniarum, aera DCX." So, the first council is not the only contemporary record, and there is some evolution from the first to the second one. Then, also, in the Third Council of Toledo, that met the year 589, the visigothic king expressed about the recent conversion of its kingdom: "Nec enim sola Gothorum conversio ad cumulum nostrae mercedis accessit, quin immo et Suevorum gentis infinita multitudo, quam praesidio caelesti nostro regno subiecimus." That is, king Reccared celebrates not only the conversion of the Goths, but also of an infinite number of Suevi. So, I would say that John Blicarense's Chronica is second hand to this conversion, thought it is a primary and reliable source for the time. Accordingly, I`m changing again the article, trying to be respectfull with other editors choices.--Cadroiolos (talk) 09:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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