Talk:Skinhead/archive 1

[edit] Timeline

Uh call me crazy but weren't there skinheads in the 19th century? I've actually heard this from a skinhead. Can anyone verify this? 71.68.17.141 17:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

• The skinhead subculture started in England in the 1960s. Any other claims or theories are untrue. Spylab 23:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

• Working-class lads in the 19th and early 20th centuries were masculine and violent, wore scally caps, hung out at the pub with their brothers, and suffered poverty and disrespect. Just like skinheads. Actually it's the other way round, skinhead is an imitation of a working-class ideal that was already disappearing in the 1960s. Skins wore braces and tank tops because their grandfathers - coal miners and laborers -- did. They wanted to keep the working class spirit alive. But the shaved head and reggae music and skinhead identity were new inventions in the 1960s. For examples of skinhead-like people in the early 20th century, see Dick in "Flambards" (miniseries), and Billy Bathgate. For the 19th century, see Charles Dickens. Sluggoster (talk) 05:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The intro

It says in the intro: "They were really bad but they love puppies." What is the purpose of this sentence? It seems out of place and I think it should be removed. Benjaminmyklebust (talk) 14:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC) I see it already is.

[edit] The Foreign Baldies

The movie 'The Wanderers', which I think is set in the Bronx, 1963, features the gang the Foreign Baldies. They are clearly skinheads, but there is no explanation of them as a cultural phenomenon on this site. Did gangs like that exist, or were they just the invention of the 1970s filmmakers? Do tell. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.79.252.192 (talk) 10:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

• They were called the Fordham Baldies, which was the name of a real Bronx, New York gang. However, according to at least two sites, the "baldies" in the real-life gang's name has nothing to do with the length of their hair: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=%22Fordham+Baldies%22&btnG=Search&meta= The filmmakers were using creative license by portraying the gang members as actually being bald, and they don't have anything to do with skinheads. And even if the real gang members did shave their heads, skinhead-ism is a subculture involving various elements, not just a hairstyle. Spylab 17:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Skinhead with scooter?

1. Why Scooter? 2. He has Hair on his head!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.165.251.60 (talk) 15:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC). 3. That guy is me. Why the removal of pic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.82.64.62 (talk) 18:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

1. Scooters were a mod tradition, and some skinheads have continued that tradition.
2. The guy's hair in that picture is actually shorter than the hair of most skinheads in the 1960s. The name skinhead doesn't mean members of the subculture have to be totally bald like Mr. Clean. It was not until the late 1970s or early 1980s that some skinheads started to totally shave their hair off, based on personal choice. Spylab 16:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Traditional skinheads

The political part talks about how 'traditional' skinheads call certain other skinheads various names based on their political views, but it doesn't explain what 'traditional' skinheads are political wise Nil Einne 09:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

• Traditional skinheads are more concerned about the music, clothing, football and socializing aspect of the skinhead subculture. They generally keep their personal political beliefs (whether left or right) out of the skinhead scene, other than the occasional rant among friends, like any other type of person. Most of them are patriotic though, although even that isn't an absolute necessity. See Trojan skinhead and Spirit of 69 for some more info. Spylab 17:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Skinhed mowement in Russia

Thera are some articles, that most of worlds skinheads/neonazi live in Russia. (throught I don't find in english) Caucasian beats fat skinhead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-CsF0C5Xwg&mode=related&search=

[edit] Bigotry/Nationalism from the get-go (a contradiction)

There are some claims within the article that seem to me to be at odds with one another: If the "hard mods became commonly known as skinheads by about 1968" and then "In the late 1960s, some skinheads (including black skinheads) had engaged in random violence against Pakistanis and other South Asian immigrants (an act known as Paki bashing in common slang)", why is the the claim made that "race, religion and national origin were never a part of being a skinhead"?

Since there is little to no time in the "late 1960's" in-between the ~1968 birth of the Skins and when Paki-bashing began, I modified the text to read

While opinions on race, religion, and national origin were unifying components of some skinhead gangs, today there are many people within the skinhead subculture who have a wide variety of political and sociological ideologies.

Seekue 10:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

• I think the better thing to do is just delete the whole sentence, since it is not backed up by a reference. Spylab 12:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I restored the word random to the phrase "...some skinheads (including black skinheads) had engaged in random violence against..." because it means they chose a random person on the street to beat up based on their ethnicity, instead of beating them up for some specific personal reason (i.e. the person owed them money, slept with their girlfriend, stole their belongings etc.). They didn't go out and say, "There's so-and-so, I'm going to kick his ass." They picked a random Asian and beat him up for the hell of it.Spylab 13:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

• • I added a citation. The paragraph should not just go away because it may put Skins in a bad light. The introduction of the entry should be honest about the fact that there were bigot Skins from the beginning, even if the idea that they were all just part of a fun-loving group of working class boot boys is more appealing.Seekue 18:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

That citation was about a gang that started in 1977, which is about a decade after the skinhead subculture started, so it did not back up the statement about "early skinheads." It's not a matter of deleting content that puts skinheads in a bad light or a good light; the rest of the article delves into all the sociopolitical issues and doesn't attempt to change history. It's a matter of having accurate content backed up by references. As it stands, the intro has too much generalization and unencyclopedic language. I am now going to try to make it more formal and neutral.Spylab 21:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

• The same citation I used is also used later in the wiki article with mention of Paki-bashing. Specifically that it took place in the late 60's. Please note the following quotes from my cited article:

Paki-bashing during the late Sixties was very much of its time

“People harp on about the old days and in the Sixties and stuff like that with the reggae music,” says Paul Burnley. “Even back then there were racist skinheads, but not so much affiliated to political parties."

The facts show that nationalism and/or bigotry was part of the early Skin subculture. Sure it may be embarrassing, but them are the brass tacks. I look forward to see where you go with the article, but do not ignore that there were "original Skinheads" who were bigots.Seekue 23:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I concede your point about that reference, and in no way am I ignoring that some (not all) of the 1960s skinheads were bigots — like many British people in general at that time. As you can see, I deleted POV-ish phrases like "brotherhood/sisterhood" because that seemed to be too much editorializing. However, from what I've read (including in posts on message boards by people who were actually part of the 1960s skinhead scene) and seen in documentary videos, anti-Asian violence was not a big focus of the skinhead subculture at that time. It seems that the focus was mostly on things like fashion, music, football, girls, alcohol; and that most of the fighting was against other skinheads or people from other subcultures, not random people based on their ethnicity. Spylab 00:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

• It would be better to frame the issue as skinheads being about as racist (and not racist) as the rest of British working class society. Putting them in a broader social context removes the pressure somewhat while maintaining accuracy and full disclosure. Yes, some Skinheads were racist, but because British working class people in the 60s tended to be racist.

[edit] Skinheads in Russia

Why was the link to the article about the Russian skinheads removed? This is a verbatim quote from the recently released Human Rights Watch report:

In 2006 there were at least 439 racially-motivated attacks, including the stabbing of a nine-year-old Tajik girl. Forty-four of these attacks resulted in the victim’s death. Most often the perpetrators of these violent acts are groups of young men and women who profess a neo-fascist ideology and are known as "Neo-Nazis" or "skinheads".(see page 19)

. --Kober^Talk 15:11, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The futility of "most skinheads are..." statements

I'm removing the part:

although as early as 1970 there were already many skinheads in the White Nationalist British National Front]].[4] Since then racist attitudes have become predominant in the skinhead sub-culture. Today most Skinheads are racist(even if they aren't all Neo-Nazi) although some skinheads remain apolitical or aligned to the Far Left.

The first (partial) sentence contradicts the first part of the sentence it's in. That's perfectly fine in the body text, but the introductory paragraph needs to be simple and general. If you think this information is significant (I don't, but it has a citation so I'll be openminded), why not expand on it and merge it into the History section?

The rest of the quote is subjective impression at most. It can't be substantiated, because it speaks of skinheads worldwide, and nobody with any authority has made an attempt even to define who is or isn't a skinhead in different parts of the world, let alone survey them on their political attitudes or any other characteristic. Thus "most skinheads are" statements are unsupportable. This has been discussed before, on the archived talk page; see Talk:Skinhead/archive_1#Demographics --Unconventional 14:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Sviatoslav86 reverted these edits with the edit summary "Re-inserted FACTS. Including one which is backed up by a source."

Well, Sviatoslav86, let's talk about that "source" which I ignored earlier. It's a blurry YouTube clip of 0:25 duration which seems to be excerpted from a British documentary, based on the narrator's accent and tone. It shows an interminate number of young people, perhaps 20, marching with a police escort. Some are throwing Nazi salutes and shouting "Sieg Heil". It's not hard to identify at least some of the people as skinheads.

Unfortunately, it does nothing to establish the year as 1970, or that the skinheads are marching for the BNP. Those claims come only from the YouTube uploader Hora111, who claims to be 24 and Swedish and so couldn't know those facts first hand. There is no chain of verifiability here at all, hence it is a worthless source. In any event, you didn't address my argument that it belongs deeper in the body of the article, not in the introduction. I invited you to move it to the History section, but looking more closely I see it's already covered in the section following that.

As for the rest of the deletion, statements are not FACTS because you insist they are. Please respond to my argument above about why blanket statements classifying skinheads politically are unsupportable. If you have verifiable knowledge of worldwide skinhead demographics, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, you're just POV pushing. If you feel it's necessary, we can call in additional interested editors to join the discussion. --Unconventional 22:41, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Monkey Jackets

To the person who said there is no such thing as a monkey jacket, see the following link: http://www.modrevival.net/MonkeyJacket.jpg They have been worn by mods and skinheads. Spylab (talk) 21:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd have called that a Golf Jacket.

Though apparently that is what Americans call a Harrington.

Nuttyskin (talk) 18:49, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Footnote 24 is defunct

footnote 24 to [[1]] is dead (or at least it is on my machine). Move to have it deleted or if the original poster can find a mirrored version. --hubare (talk) 10:49, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• That means the book Skinhead Nation is no longer online at that URL, so in the meantime, all references to that book should be changed to Marshall, George. Skinhead Nation. ST Publishing, 1996. ISBN-10: 1898927456, ISBN-13: 978-1898927457. That info comes from http://www.amazon.co.uk/Skinhead-Nation-George-Marshall/dp/1898927456. Spylab (talk) 13:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] MP3 site in external links

I removed the link to the mp3 website because it violates copyright law. Wikipedia guidelines say

However, if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States (Intellectual Reserve v. Utah Lighthouse Ministry [2]). Linking to a page that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on Wikipedia and its editors.[3].

Spylab (talk) 21:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Hammerskinlogo.JPG

The image Image:Hammerskinlogo.JPG is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --10:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pearson quote

I'd delete the Geoff Pearson quote. It's abstract, says little about skinheads, and is full of conjecture ("liberal conscience has seen nothing on earth like the Skinhead ... his clothing forced a neat closure to any critical thought"). The two political sections are already disproportionately long (reflecting public perceptions of skinhead more than the reality), so cutting these eight lines would bring it closer to balance. I left the paragraph in for now in case there are objections. Sluggoster (talk) 06:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

• I deleted the Pearson quote for the reason you expressed, and deleted some other similar opinionated/speculative content that doesn't really belong in a neutral encyclopedic article.Spylab (talk) 12:47, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Regarding mainstream media's depiction of skinheads, does anybody have a link to that quote about "How would you feel if your picture was in the paper with the words 'Child Rapist' under it?" It describes what it's like when people assume all sorts of false things about you and your culture because that's what they read in the paper. Sluggoster (talk) 06:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fencewalkers

"Skinheads on either extreme of the political spectrum sometimes refer to [apolitical skins] as a fencesitter or fencewalker."

Fencewalker means more than this. An apolitical skinhead who gets along with everybody is a traditional skin, not a fencewalker. Often their personal views are known but they don't let politics get in the way of interpersonal relationships if the other guy is not an asshole. "I respect you until you disrespect me", as the saying goes.

A fencewalker is somebody who hangs out buddy-buddy with the white power guys most of the time, who seems to be fascinated by their culture (e.g., listens to Skrewdriver and RAC more than Agnostic Front and the Anti-Heroes), yet still claims to be non-racist. The implication is that he's lying (he is white power but he's not willing to say so), or something along those lines.

Condemned 84/Retaliator are sometimes considered a fencewalking band because their lyrics are nationalistic and contain themes popular in WP songs but they carefully avoid explicit racism. Does this mean they're white power but don't want to offend their fans who aren't? Or are they a non-WP band who just likes the aggression of their style? Who knows. The point is that they tread the line very close, and thus give the appearance of being fencewalkers. White people who tell pollsters they might vote for a black man but in reality they wouldn't are also a kind of fencewalker.

The other use of the term is somebody who hangs out with his WP buddies and claims to be for the white man, then goes to his SHARP buddies and claims to be non-racist. So he's lying to one of them or the other or both. More likely he's just saying whatever they want to hear. This flies against the skinhead value of integrity: you stand up for your own beliefs, you give the same answer to everybody who asks, and you know why you believe what you do. Most skins on either side respect somebody who does that even if he disagrees with him. Sluggoster (talk) 06:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

• I deleted that sentence (and the bonehead sentence) because they are uncited slang terms. The terms are fairly common knowledge within the skinhead subculture, but since there is no proof, it doesn't belong in an encyclopedic article.Spylab (talk) 13:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notable Skinheads

It would help to have a descriptive phrase for each of these. Readers unfamiliar with the names will learn nothing. On that note, does anyone remember "Lefty," an African American woman skinhead who lived in D.C. in the 1980s? She was sort of "known" but I wasn't in the loop enough to know why. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlg4104 (talk • contribs) 03:36, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• I deleted the section because it was unencyclopedic, uncited and totally based on personal opinion.Spylab (talk) 19:44, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• Lefty is mentioned several times in the book "Dance of Days: 20 Years of Punk in Our Nations Capital" so she has become rather infamous. It was a rather one sided book though, basically it was the story of Dischord records and their clique. They didn't get along with the skinheads. Most stories you've heard about Lefty are probably false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.93.201.145 (talk) 16:59, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

• Lefty is "known" for being a black woman who claims white power. She's still seen around D.C. occasionally. Not somebody I'd call "notable" though. --Unconventional (talk) 06:25, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

There are several celebrities (I use the term loosely) who are/were skinheads, and what's more even admit to it. Obvious examples from music would be Suggs (Graham Macpherson), Buster Bloodvessel (Doug Trendle) and Jimmy Pursey (from Sham69); from film, the writer/director Shane Meadows; the photographer Nick Knight, and the actor/photographer Gavin Watson.

There is also pictorial evidence that Paul O'Grady used to be a suedehead in the 1970s.

Nuttyskin (talk) 19:13, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] What a whitewashed article

I don't see how you can have a huge section on how skinheads are quite often anti-racist or neutral while the article only hints at racist associations. Before you provide an "argument to the contrary" you at least have to talk about the initial argument.--67.170.107.184 (talk) 03:28, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Looking for this? --Unconventional (talk) 05:52, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] More pictures

This article needs more pictures. -Axmann8 (Talk) 22:39, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] London, England

Crap Wiki entry, clearly written by an American. For a start, claiming that the Skinhead movement began in the "United Kingdom" is just too vague. There needs to be more information about the original east-London Skinheads of the late '60s. That's where it began and stayed for a number if years before it spread to the rest of the British isles. And if people outside the UK are going to comment on British culture, please try and get some basic facts correct. For instance, "Skinheads from the 70s marching for the BNP". The BNP wasn't formed until the early 1980s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GnosticM (talk • contribs) 15:16, 2 February 2010 (UTC)