(Rated C-Class, Top-importance)

Pakistan portal

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pakistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Pakistan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.

C

This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.

This article has not yet been checked against the criteria for B-Class status:
Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar and style: not checked Supporting materials: not checked Accessibility: not checked	To fill out this checklist, please add the following code to the template call: \| b1 <!--Referencing & citations--> = <yes/no> \| b2 <!--Coverage & accuracy --> = <yes/no> \| b3 <!--Structure --> = <yes/no> \| b4 <!--Grammar & style --> = <yes/no> \| b5 <!--Supporting materials --> = <yes/no> \| b6 <!--Accessibility --> = <yes/no> assessing the article against each criterion.

Top

This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject India

(Rated B-Class)

India portal

This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.

B

This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.

???

This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Languages

(Rated Start-Class)

Language portal

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Languages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of standardized, informative and easy-to-use resources about languages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.

Start

This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.

???

This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

1 It is Challengeable
2 Internal contradiction
3 Moved from Talk:Main Page
4 Kidnly Let Me Know How to Create A Page in Sindhi ARABIC Script
5 I have begun the process
6 Pronunciation questions
7 "Gujrat and Rajasthan"
8 translators needed at Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Translation
9 Order of scripts
10 How many Sindhi speakers??
- 10.1 IPA...
- 10.2 Verifiabilty

[edit] It is Challengeable

The following statement : "The answer is that Hindus generally use the Devnagri script and Muslims use the Arabic script with something like 20 or 30 extra characters."

is chaleangeable. The Devenagri script is NOT GENERALLY used anywhere in the world. It is the script that has never gained accpetablity even among Sindhi Hidus of India. You can conduct survey (S'il Vous Plait) on this question. I think there is some malafied intention of someone who has somehow convinced you to put support for Sindhi Devenagri script instead of Sindhi Arabic script. It is a way of keeping Sindhi language OUT OF the rich internet resources of Wikipedia and Wikitionary.

Ahsan Ahmad Ursani

My dear friend, no one has evil intentions to keep Sindhi out of Wikipedia. There is no Danish-Zionist plot afoot, I assure you. I hope you figure out how to start and develop the Sindhi in Arabic script website. But there are a lot of people who use Sindhi in Devanagri. I have a bunch of Sindhi Hindu friends who only know Sindhi in Devanagri. I am sure that globally there are not that many people who use Sindhi in Devanagri, but the fact is there are people who do and you need to respect there right to write on Wikipedia in Sindhi. Wikipedia is open to everyone, there is no one stopping you from developing a seperate Wikipedia in Sindhi. Kashmiri is currently in Arabic script and Devanagri. I think Punjabi has pages in Gurumukhi and Arabic script. Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian all have parallel sites. I am busy this weekend but next week I will help show you how to develop Sindhi in Arabic script. But please stop acting as though there is a conspiracy against Sindhi in Arabic script. Its just that until now no one seems to have been interested in developing Sindhi in Arabic script. It is very nice that you want to develop it. But stop acting so paranoid. Ahassan05 11:54, 18 February 2006 (UTC)ahassan05

(Another user)

I wish to add a few points. My grandmother who was born in Hyderabad, Sindh in the early 1900s. Could write Sindhi in both the Arabic script (i.e. the one with the extra letters for Sindhi sounds) and also in Gurmukhi. Following Partition of India, many Hindu Sindhis were forced to leave Sindh and are now scattered in other parts of India. The these Sindhi grew up in India, they would have learned the Devanagri script, so this is more popular over in India. So it is logical the Sindhi would be writting in the Devanagri scrip. Having said this, it is also possible that Devanagri script was used in Sindh before partition (will have to ask elders about this!). I have also in my posession a book "An Intensive Course in Sindhi" By Kanhaiyalal Lekhwani published by Central Institute of Indian Languages. I bought this book from Amazon!! In this there as the Sindhi Alphabet in Devanagari. It teaches Sindhi in both Arabic (Sindhi flavour) and also Devanagari. Some Sindhis in India who have special interest lierature still learn the Arabic script, since many Sindhis books are only available in the Arabic script....
People are making a big deal about this... for instance you can write Sindhi in English (with difficulty)....

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.169.82 (talk) 23:46, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Internal contradiction

"The language can be written using the Devanagari or Arabic scripts."

and

"Sindhi has its own script which is similar to that of Arabic but with many extra accents and phonetics. There are 52 characters in the Sindhi language."

Which is it? Ethnologue only mentions that Arabic is used by a subset of speakers. | Keithlaw 18:17, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The answer is that Hindus generally use the Devnagri script and Muslims use the Arabic script with something like 20 or 30 extra characters. Just like French uses the Latin script but with several extra characters like é,è,ç,à,ù etc.

You can see that the word Sindhi in English is followed by the word Sindhi in Urdu and then in Sindhi. Whereas in Urdu we right dal (d) and then he (h) for the dh sound, in Sindhi they write dal with two dots on top to represent dh.

I added this site to clear up any questions http://www.omniglot.com/writing/sindhi.htm

[edit] Moved from Talk:Main Page

Dear Sir/Madam, It is mentioned on the page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_people

that there are 23 millio Sindhi speakers. Though this figure is much lower than the fatual figure, an other page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_language

states that the number of Sindhi speakers in only 19.7 millions. It is contradictions in what the Wikipedia states for Sindhi lanauge.

There is an other condradictory statement on

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_language

that Sindhi is written in Devnagri script. The fact is that the Devnagri script is never recognized officially. Even the govt. of India declares Sindhi as one of its official and national languages in ARABIC SINDHI script. Even if you consider the Devnagri script more acceptable to Sindhi Hindus in India, considering their smaller number (2.8 millions: as stated by one of your pages), the Sindhi article on the page

http://sd.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

must have been place in Sindhi Arabic script. Sindhi practically used as official language in Sindh in Sindhi Arabic Script. The official website of NATIONAL COUNCIL FOR PROMOTION OF SINDHI LANGUAGE (INDIA) provides a Sindhi font for downloading, which is an ARABIC-SINDHI font. This established the fact that even in INDIA, Sindhi is dominantly accepted and written in ARABIC-SINDHI script.

Kindly redress the issue; by placing the articles in ARABIC-SINDHHI script.

Ahsan Ahmad Ursani

The above was originally posted on Talk: Main Page by User:Aursani at 23:30 on 2006 February 14 (UTC). --PFHLai 07:30, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Sindhi is in fact used by a large community of Sindhis in India and abroad in Devanagri script. I do not believe that the government of India promotes Arabic script over Devanagri script. There is no special font for Sindhi in Devanagri but that doesn't mean anything. The government of India subsidizes books written in either alphabet. Furthermore if Hindu Sindhis choose to develop a Wikipedia in Sindhi in Devanagri script it is their right. They are free to do so. If you want to develop Sindhi Wikipedia in Arabic script no one is stopping you, go ahead and make as many articles as you want in Sindhi in Arabic script. But you cannot control the fact that other people do use Devanagri script. Ahassan05 12:55, 16 February 2006 (UTC)ahassan05

[edit] Kidnly Let Me Know How to Create A Page in Sindhi ARABIC Script

Can someone help me create a new page in Sindhi Arabic Script? While looking for the supported languages, I do not find the option of Sindhi (in Arabic Script). The fact is that the URL

http://sd.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

has been taken over by the Sindhi (Devenagri) script that is understood by less than 1000 people arround the world. Can someone help resolve this problem?

Ahsan Ahmad Ursani

Hi, I have begun the procedure to create a Sindhi Arabic webpage. You can go to this website to find more information:

This is going to be a lot of work. I do not speak Sindhi so I doubt I will be that much help beyond getting the Wikipedia Sindhi for you started. Do you have like five or six friends who could help you do this? As you doing this by yourself will find that it is hard to do alone. Perhaps you can advertise in the Sindhi community to get people excited to help? Also please read this: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/How_to_start_a_new_Wikipedia Ahassan05 19:11, 19 February 2006 (UTC)ahassan05

[edit] I have begun the process

I have begun the process of creating a Sindhi in Arabic wikipedia. Please get your friends to help out so that we can make it large. Ahassan05 19:13, 19 February 2006 (UTC)ahassan05

[edit] Pronunciation questions

The article says:

The /r/ is usually pronounced as an alveolar tap, [ɾ], though occasionally reminiscent of a trill with two or more contacts.

Why not just say it is an alveolar trill that is – as in most languages with such a sound! – commonly reduced to a single contact? This would avoid confusion with the alveolar flap of American English, which is traditionally transcribed as [ɾ] but is a completely different sound from a one-contact trill.

The affricates /c, cʰ, ɟ, ɟʱ/ are pronounced with a relatively short release and corresponding plosives symbols have therefore been used.

This is confusing. What are they?

Are they real true palatal plosives – IPA [c cʰ ɟ ɟʱ]?
Are they palato-alveolar affricates like ch, j in English – IPA [tʃ tʃʰ dʒ dʒʱ] (for clarity the tie bars are omitted)? These sounds have allegedly often been transcribed with the symbols for palatal plosives.
Are they retroflex affricates like in Russian and Chinese [ʈʂ ʈʂʰ ɖʐ ɖʐʱ]? These would be "palatal" as in "articulated on the palate", but coronal rather than dorsal.
Or are they maybe palatal affricates ending in "shibilants" [cç͡ɕ cç͡ɕʰ ɟʝ͡ʑ ɟʝ͡ʑʱ]? These are very rare sounds, but Standard Mandarin has them: Pinyin q [cç͡ɕʰ], j [ ɟ̊ ʝ ͡ʑ] (I have distorted this one so it becomes halfway legible in Arial Unicode MS).
Or does more than one of these possibilities occur in Sindhi, perhaps in different dialects?

Inquiring minds want to know!

David Marjanović | david.marjanovic_at_gmx.at | 14:30 CEST | 1006/4/27

This is straight out of the IPA handbook. /c/ are laminal postalveolars, so <c> isn't very precise. I'll change them to simple affricates with a note that the affrication is brief. kwami (talk) 14:12, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

The Handbook is so imprecise that it's impossible to know exactly what they mean. They don't say that the "palatal" implosive is an affricate, and being implosive it may very well not be. However, it's not clear if it's also a palatalized postalveolar, or truly palatal. (It says "the consonants" in the palatal column (which includes the four I moved to postalveolar) are laminal postalveolars, but that would include /j/, so I can't tell which are intended.) Likewise, the retroflex rhotics are said to "tend to be flaps". I assume they actually are flaps, since retroflex trills are unknown, but it shows how poor the description is. They vowels are also imprecise. The image is straight from the handbook, and you can see how poor the match to symbol is. One of the short vowels is right on /ɜ/, but it's lower than /ɔ/, so I transcribed it with an /ɐ̆/. True, it's also higher than /æ/, but it's also shorter, and mid-centering can be expected in such cases. (Look how low the /ɪ̆/ is.) kwami (talk) 14:50, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Gujrat and Rajasthan"

At one point, this page included the word "Rajasthan" with a different spelling. I then changed the spelling so that this page would link to information concerning that northern Indian state. However, this page also links to "Gujrat," but I think it really meant "GujArat." I will change "Gujrat" to "Gujarat" as soon as possible so that the word links to the Indian state, not the Pakistani location. (The sentence in which "Gujrat" currently appears refers to the Indian states "Gujrat" and Rajasthan.)--70.112.164.32 15:04, 28 July 2006 (UTC) Vijay

[edit] translators needed at Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Translation

Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Translation--D-Boy 19:30, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Order of scripts

On 29 November 2006, a user changed the order of the scripts at the top of this page. Now, Devanagari script is first, preceding the Perso-Arabic script. This change should not reverted as there is clearly a majority of Sindhi speakers from Pakistan who use Perso-Arabic script (over 18 million) compared to the 2 million that use Devanagari in India. Although order should not matter excessively on Wikipedia, this is an article of a major language and that should be accurate and relevance-based, as well as in accordance with Wikipedia policy. After all, the major script source Omniglot gives only the Arabic script at the top of the Sindhi script page but introduces Devanagari at the bottom. User:Dangerous-Boy opposes this reversion by stating that the Sindhi script based on the Perso-Arabic script is "as foreign as the moguls, ghazni and the sultanates"[1] and that "the sindhi language is indic in origin and therefore the devangari should come first" [2]. I hope to hear what other users think about this topic, even though it's importance is rather low and it should not be a big issue. Thank you. Mar de Sin ^{Speak up!} 20:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

More to say on this topic: The NCPSL [3], an organization in India dedicated to the Sindhi language, uses both the Arabic Sindhi script and the Devanagari script for its purposes, as proved by documents in both languages here and as well as the banners shown in the photo gallery which has Arabic-Sindhi script on top. This shows that the Arabic Sindhi script is the most influential even in India with its 2 million or so Sindhi speakers.

And to point out a flaw in User:Dangerous-Boy's argument: Devanagari script is actually more foreign to Sindhi than Arabic Sindhi script as it was introduced by the Government of India in 1948 and has very limited popularity. Mar de Sin ^{Speak up!} 21:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

uh, you just stated that's it arabic script. you basically contradicted you're whole arguement. devangari has been around since early common era centuries on Indian subcontinent. it developed from the bhrami script. Sindhi itself is an indo-european language.--D-Boy 02:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Basawala just made a bogus argument. Devanagari came out around 1200 CE. Urdu, as a language, did not exist back then so it clearly predates Urdu (though not Persian, but Devanagari is descended from the Gupta script just like Urdu script from Persian, and the Gupta Empire ruled the region long before the Muslims had even invented themselves). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hkelkar (talk • contribs) 06:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

Where is Gurumukhi? You do know that a large majority of Hindu Sindhis use Gurumukhi as well?[4][5]. Gurumukhi should come last out of the three scripts, but should be addedBaka man 03:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Addressing Hkelkar's points, history doesn't matter for language. And I haven't even mentioned the Urdu language, that is completely irrelevent. My argument is not bogus. I never challenged the fact that Devanagari's older. How old a script is has nothing to do with pure demographics and how commonly it is used.

Bakaman, in your argument that Gurmukhi is used by Hindus Sindhis, I must point out that your claim Gurmukhi is used by the majority of Hindu Sindhis is wrong. Your first source says: Sindhi is primarily written in Arabic script. But some Sindhi Hindus, especially women, read and write Sindhi in Gurumukhi script. Since that says Sindhi is primarily written in Arabic script, your first source contradicts your argument. Onle "some Sindhi Hindus" use Gurmukhi. Your second source only mentions the word Sindhi once and only says "Gurmukhi is the name of the script used in writing primarily Punjabi and, secondarily, Sindhi language". Nothing on the prevalence of G-mukhi. And more importantly, you are not addressing the fact that the Sindhi speakers in Pakistan use the Perso-Arabic script (also called "Sindhi" on a NCPSL page which once again is an official Sindhi organisation in India), and they vastly outnumber Indian Hindu Sindhis. 19 million-ish to 2 million-ish.

"uh, you just stated that's it arabic script. you basically contradicted you're whole arguement." Yes, I did say is was Perso-Arabic script. You must understand however that Arabic is a language, and Arabic script is something different. Scripts, although are develop for language, evolve and fit into other languages too. Consider the Roman alphabet which is used for languages as different as English and Swahili; you wouldn't say that just because English was originally represented by runes, it needs to have then on every article pertinent to English. So how exactly is "arabic script" contradicting my argument? Your accusation is very unclear.

I think it is perfectly evident that the large majority of Sindhi speakers, combining both Pakistan and India, or even just India alone (not to suggest India is more important than Pakistan), use a derivative of the Sindhi script. Basically every source on Sindhi concurs with this, and this is an accepted fact too. And historically, the Sindhi language did not just use Devanagari but also other Brahmic script as old as than Devanagari which have faded away from modern usage. Therefore, Sindhi Arabic script before Devanagari is more than well justified. Mar de Sin ^{Speak up!} 01:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

um, this is a minor point, but a very straightforward one. The history of the scripts don't matter, this is an article about a contemporary language, and we'll give priority to the script that is predominantly used to write it today. I don't see what the respective origin and history of the Brahmi or Arabic scripts have to do with it. (not to mention Hkelkar is banned from Wikipedia anyway by virtue of being a troll's sock, so I don't think the point needs further discussion) dab (𒁳) 09:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with dab and Mar de Sin here. It amazes me that a very minor issue like this is being discussed in great detail. Right now, most native Sindhi speakers live in Pakistan therefore more would be familiar with the Arabic script. Period

Secondly, look at the "Writing system" section (which is important unlike this) and you'll notice that Arabic is mentioned first there anyway. So changing the scripts at the top ultimately has no significant impact whatsoever. Gizza^Chat ^© 10:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinions; I know this is a small issue, but during writing my comments I seem to have forgotten on how large exactly the issue is. Thanks! Mar de Sin ^{Speak up!} 20:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I wasnt in agreement with Hkelkar. Most Sindhis use Arabic (even Hindus) then Devanagari, then Gurumukhi (refer to Arora and related groups, not all Sindhi Hindus are -ani's)Baka man 22:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

If sources are provided, you are most welcome to add a section on Gurmukhi in the article. Gizza^Chat ^© 23:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Well many Hindus Sindhis (esp those from partition era) do prefer Arabic script over Devnagri. My grandfather (a Sindhi) would use Arabic script but my mum grew up learning Sindhi in devnagri script. अमेय आर्यन DaBrood^© 20:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, language and script are not directly related to religion. The famous old Bollywood actor Raaj Kumar preferred to speak in the Urdu literary form rather than the Hindi because of where he was brought up. And for Sindhis, most of them now (past doesn't matter) use Arabic script. It doesn't matter whether you think it is a good or an unfortunate thing. This article has to reflect that. Gizza^Chat ^© 21:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How many Sindhi speakers??

On the Sindhi language page it says there are 35 million speakers in Pakistan, (8 in India) but on the Sindh (the region) page it says there are 15 and 2.5 million speakers in Pakistan and India respectively. What are the right figures and where do they come from (source)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.215.194.139 (talk) 11:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

About Sindhi speakers in Pakistan: last census shows 14.1 % speakers in Pakistan which means 18.661.632 speakers in the country in 1998. This also means that Sindhi is the THIRD largest language in Pakistan (Pushto being second - 15.42 %). With official Pakistani 2008 population estimations (from Pakistani Population Census Organization) we can assume there are roughly 23.2 million Sindhi speakers in Pakistan today but with more realistical estimation (based on 2.0 - 2.8 pop. growth) we must assume there are about 24.5 M Sindhi speakers in Pakistan. This puts the 41 M statement in the article way off and should be corrected. If anyone thinks 41 (or some other) figure is more accurate (s)he should cite the source. --Rok42 (talk) 18:32, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IPA...

... does not use the empty set sign. It uses ø. See Close-mid front rounded vowel -- Prince Kassad (talk) 11:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

...and if you do mean the empty set sign, I wonder why. It does not make sense in this context. -- Prince Kassad (talk) 11:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Verifiabilty

As discussed above, the speakers' figures are totally wrong. Also, I'd like to see a source for the statement about "heavy Dravidian influence" on Sindhi. --BishkekRocks (talk) 21:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Contents