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Contents 1 Sub standard 2 Bravo 3 A word on origins 4 Proposition of change 5 Imagined Community 6 Proposition 7 Vagueness 8 "state-nations" as opposed to nation-states? 9 Nationalist bias throughout the text 10 Oxford Dictionary of Current English 11 Is the etimology section correct? 12 National Identity 13 POV from the get go. 14 Peer review of Zionism 15 Wikiproject Ethnic groups 16 Nations Vs. Ethnic Groups 17 About the reference tag at under "nationalism 18 Naturalization 19 See Also Deletion 20 Excellent introduction 21 "Share a common identity" 22 Revised opening paragraphs 23 nation defined 24 Suggesting an External link -- NationStates.net? 25 this whole article reads like a personal essay 26 cultural nation and religion 27 Common language

[edit] Sub standard

This article is clearly sub standard. I am putting a POV mark on it, because it does not recognise the third and most important definition of a nation and the nation versus the modern nation, according to Anthony D Smith. In other words, it falsely divides theory about nations into a primordialist versus constructivist dichotomy, where in fact there are three different interpretations of what a nation is. According to Anthony D. Smith, there is a more timeless but limited definition of what a nation is, and then a wider definition of what a modern nation is. Structure and wording of the text also suggest an author with insufficient skills to write this kind of text. I note and agree with the quality deficieny tag. [[[Special:Contributions/79.136.76.102|79.136.76.102]] (talk) 13:32, 23 October 2009 (UTC)]

[edit] Bravo

I am very happy to see this page being accurate in the facts and reasonable in its interpretation of the word and its meaning. Countless times did I have to explain that nation is synonym with people first and foremost. Thank you very much to the intelligent people who wrote this article. I hope this will help spread the knowledge that the majority of the peoples on this planet do not enjoy the freedom of living in a State they democratically govern. -- Mathieugp

It makes you happy, but that doesn't mean it is accurate. This "nation" page has been hijacked by poly-sci weenies. Yes, defining "nation" to be "people" could be a good idea, and especially convenient for those who wish to use words such as "nation-state". However, it is not how the word is commonly used, and it is not the sole definition of the word in the dictionary; it is just one narrow sense.

I have no objection to the material that is here. However, the page should be altered to add up front that the word "nation" is quite commonly used to mean "country", and that this page would like to explore a narrow but useful definition of the word.

My Oxford Dictionary includes the phrase "forming a state or inhabiting a territory" which is notably absent here. Some "nationalist" movements would prefer to leave this phrase out of the definition.

Also, I have a problem with the word "people". Again according to my dog-eared Oxford, "people" can mean "community, tribe, RACE, nation". Fourtildas 06:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fourtildas (talk • contribs) 06:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

...As in "A 'country' is a community of people created by a national ideology, to which certain norms and behavior are usually attributed?" But "country" is the equivalent in English of pays; it invariably refers to a territory. The article is perhaps too accurate to suit everyone. --(Wetman) 00:37, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Last but not Least, a nation as a group of people can include just those who life in the same territory as Wetman said... Herle King 02:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the definition of the word "nation" given on this page. A nation is a collective of a people who share a common national history. A community, on the other hand, is just a group of individuals. The synopsis given on this page was clearly written by individualists and I applaud those who show it's inaccuracy. Garrett365 (talk) 03:58, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] A word on origins

"treat nations as a relatively late human social grouping. The most widely quoted theories place their origin in the late 18th and 19th century,"

Is it relevant to mention the references to the nation (or the idea of the nation) in history? The nation has been mentioned in works as far back as Sun Tzu's Art of War (chapter 2) for example. "Thus it may be known that the leader of armies is the arbiter of the people's fate, the man on whom it depends whether the nation shall be in peace or in peril."

Or the numerous references to nation & 'peoples' in the Bible? Or the growth of nationhood in Japan as early as the 3rd century?

Remember that "nation" in Old Testament contexts is being employed in 16-17th century translations for a Hebrew word that took for granted genetic affiliations, I believe. One would also like to hear what word "nation" is translating in the Sun Tzu text, so that we might decide whether modern concepts of "nation" are being superimposed there too. Are there any texts to support such an early concept of "nation" in pre-Nara Japan?--Wetman 19:40, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposition of change

Since there are many attributes which can are used to define a nation, I propose we take those the United Nations and state it as such in the article. The United Nations generally defines a nation as "a human group who shares some or all of the following attributes: customs, culture, religion, institutions, language and history." What do you think? Mathieugp 23:10, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The United Nations is an assembly of political states. Any UN definition in this sphere must be a political compromise, for all modern political states claim to speak for nations. Wikipedia's several articles are on a clearer track than this proposed definition, but the UN definition might be analyzed: for a start, from what UN source does the quote actually come? --Wetman 19:40, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you do not understand that a state is the leadership of a nation and hence forth lead the nation to membership in the UN and thus making the nation a member of the UN.76.186.56.36 (talk) 14:20, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

"United Nations" is a misnomer--should be United States [of the World], and since its 192 members claim authority over virtually all of the earth, its definition might just well be self-serving. If you're not in the club, you don't count. Canada recognizes over 600 indigenous First Nations within its claimed border, yet the UN recognizes only one state, Canada, and Canada has just gone on record objecting to the U.N. Declaration of Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Interestingly, the most vocal opponents of that policy are the British imperial colonies: USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. They have the most at stake, being occupiers of the territory of other nations.

Doctoral Thesis for reference:

Sovereignty Challenged - The Changing Status and Moral Significance of Territorial Boundaries

The confusion between "nations", "peoples", and "States" is intentionally caused by politicians who want their domination of those around them to be justified by claiming the Governments represent the will of "the people" or the "nation". Nations are recognized BY THEIR MEMBERS and generally by their neighbors as well as separate peoples. While some States are also Nations, most have lost such an identity. In the USA, "nation" has come to mean anyone who the Government wants to govern. Citizenship is conveyed by States, not Nations. It should not be the function of Wikipedia to legitimize every State that claims nationhood. People should know that claiming something does not make it true, even if the claimant has an Army.

--Zerasmus (talk) 19:09, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

"A nation may be defined as 'A portion of mankind [that] are united among themselves by common sympathies that do not exist between them and any others – which make them co-operate with each other more willingly than with other people, desire to be under the same government, and desire that it should be governed by themselves or a portion of themselves exclusively' (Mill 1861/1991: 391).

Mill, John Stuart, 1861/1991. Considerations on Representative Government. Reprinted in Utilitarianism, On Liberty, Considerations on Representative Government. Edited by H. B. Acton. London: J. M. Dent & Sons, Everyman’s Library.

http://www.statsvitenskap.uio.no/fag/polit/disputas/fulltxt/FullThesisAnneJulieSemb.pdf

Qureus1 10:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The nation is a whole. A whole is a logical, mereolical concept. Wholes are sets, ordered and hierarchical wholes and collections. When people are trying to define nation, they refer to these different types of wholes, and also when they defines social groups. They are not aware of these wholes but try mostly to define "belonging characreristics: language etc, but what they describe is the set form of wholes, but there are other forms of wholes also with the same meaning that can be claimed to be the nation. The problem is linking the concept to the political power, or the establishment of the nation. The nation is defined when all men take control over the public sector making it a subset og the whole. All will tule. The whole is to rule. This is exemplified in the French and the American revolutions. It is a collection establishes itself. In society we need peace. Leibniz distinguished between different levels of peace: ars nedciendi, tolerantia civilis, tolerantia ecclesoastica and unio (eirene). Society is in tolerantia ecclesiastica, this is how to define society. 08.05.2006 StaraStara

[edit] Imagined Community

It seems as if there should be some consideration of Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities, in which he states that the definition of the nation is "an imagined political community" and that "Nationalism is not the awakening of nations to self-conciousness: it invents nations where they do not exist," (6). Thus, nations are not natural occurences of human collectives but instead percieved communities of people.

Someone has inserted this rather precious conceptualization— without linking it to Benedict Anderson— as if it were common usage. Would someone more knowledgable than I please disambiguate this specialized usage in our entry, and provide the Anderson reference at References?? --Wetman 14:33, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In the lede sentence, an Imagined Community as a political concept is perilously close to meaningless. I take as my starting point Thomas Paine's concept (Rights of Man) that "sovereignty of a government lies in the people (the nation)". This is the root of multiple nations such as the US and France, so it is not just academic.

Here is my counterexample to show the speciousness of Imagined Community as a nation: Clearly, Star Trek is a work of fiction, a work of imagination. Yet the current lede sentence would also apply to a 'Star Trek nation', which is not a political concept; rather it is a hobbyist or fandom concept.

The article would be improved if the lede were changed to apply to real things like our current Nation-States, and still exclude fanciful groups. Right now the lede's scope is so broad as to be useless. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 14:26, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Proposition

I propose this definition as a replacement for the current one: "A nation is a human community characterized by the consciousness of its historical or cultural identity, and often by it linguistic or religious unity". Then we can say that a nation generally shares some or all of these attributes: customs, culture, religion, institutions, language and history. Any objections? -- Mathieugp 18:19, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think it is a good definition, especially, since it is general and does not need the existance of a State or common territory (which is something more political). Moreover, other ones should stay, of course. Definitions as the ones given in the UN should absolutely be in the text and it should be remembered that the concept varies very much from place to place and from one ideological plane to the other.

The definiton above is general and lets for example complex definitions possible, as the one that a Nation can be divided in many Nations or that it can be formed out of many Nations. Such characterics of a Nation exist in some definitions and can be in some cases constructive (not always, of course).- N.M.B.R.Nbez 11:03, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The above definition omits the nation's characterization of its genetic identity, which is the essential element in the evolution of the modern idea. --Wetman 19:40, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vagueness

"The idea of a nation remains somewhat vague, in that there is generally no strict definition for exactly who is considered to be a member of any particular nation." ...and after all our hard work here! Let's further clarify the terms and remove this waffle. --Wetman 14:35, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

attempted to disambiguate "nation (ethnos)" from nation (country) whenever I saw the quoted term "nation", which appeared to bear some other connotation. Ancheta Wis 12:32, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

what, my brothers about the native american indians or aborigines of an native continent?

"many nations exist without a state, such as the Kurds, Assyrians, Gibraltarian and the native American nations" is in the text. --Wetman 12:52, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "state-nations" as opposed to nation-states?

"This sort of entity is sometimes referred to in political theory as a "state-nation", where citizens form a common identity because of their membership in the state. The key distinction is that a nation-state is a state formed by people with a common identity, while a state-nation is composed of individuals who form a common identity because of their membership in the state."

If this distinction has no other name, and if it were in use, it would be used somewhere that would provide a meaty quote. Otherwise it has a bogus feel to it... -Wetman 21:07, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Any chance of a citation for this usage? --Wetman 19:40, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nationalist bias throughout the text

The first sentence quite correctly asserts that the idea of nations is a doctrine = ideology/system of beliefs (which implies, by no means an objective fact). In spite of this, from the third sentence on it is pretended, by pervasive use of the indicative mood, that nations exist by nature, that national identity is an innate "sense of belonging" and not something attributed to people by societies and states. That it could be the latter isn't even mentioned. Any reference to the reasonable constructivist view mentioned above seems to have been eradicated by nationalists. This article is an extremely POV mess. I wouldn't know where to start so I didn't edit it.--84.188.173.232 22:55, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Were it not in the indicative mood, it would be in the conditional and subjunctive: this were a frivolous quibble, if it were substantiable. Once the idea's origins and its pre-suppositions have been laid out, normal discourse proceeds normally. --Wetman 02:39, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

The constructivist view is itself a doctrine, and it is often used in a political context, to justify the existence of a nation state, especially if it is disputed. Something like this, for example: 'Canada is not a nationalist boot camp, why no, Canada is a peaceful community of people who want to live as a community, and have taken the maple leaf and the caribou as symbols of their identification with each other in this community, so there is no reason at all for Quebec to be independent, and if you try we will lock you up'. So although the article should indeed be careful about suggesting that nations are an eternal fixed reality, there is no reason to take Benedict Anderson as the last word.Ruzmanci 11:12, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

To say nothing of the 600+ indigenous First Nations Canada 'recognizes' but for which it refuses to allow autonomy or sovereignty. Qureus1 16:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Note, I made one small change which I'd like to explain to anybody out there. The Czech and Polish nations - I added 'various' before Polish and changed 'Czech' to Bohemian. Although the Czech republic and Poland may be well established modern European countries with their own background and paraphernalia etc, there is nothing beyond modern propaganda from harliners in both countries to suggest that these nations existed centuries ago as they do now, in fact only the opposite is apparent: people often said that the Czechs and Slovaks were never one and the same nation, one reason for their break-up in 1993 from the 20th century Eastern European state of Czechoslovakia. For what people call nations, this may be true. On that premise it must also be said that even these subnations can divide further, and a denomination of Czech peoples shows that this country is mainly composed of Bohemians and Moravians BOTH of whom have a seperate past history and identity, as do the Silesians who are a small nation caught in a triangle of international frontiers, Czechia; Slovakia; Poland. Since Czechs and Slovaks (and Poles for that matter) are ALL based on Slavic descent, and so too are Silesians and Moravians, there can be no conceivable theory to support that Moravians and Bohemians, whilst not being each other are still Czech, but Slovaks remain different, either they are all one and the same, or they are all different. As for the Poles, well Polands borders have chopped and changed incredibly over the centuries, what is considered Polish is that where a governing power is in place, calling itself 'Polska/Poland etc', where-as Poland too comprises dozens of subnational communities past and present (Slovincians, Kashubians, Silesians, Pomeranians, Mazurians etc.) Curiously enough, the word 'Poland' is based on the word 'Pole' (cognate with English 'field' {see the 'f'+'l' and 'p'+'l' connection}) yet the only known nation to include the term 'Pol' in its title is the Poleszuks who are another Slavic subnation who live on both sides of the Belarussian/Ukranian borders (who both incidently are ALSO made up of subnations). Celtmist 1.10.05

[edit] Oxford Dictionary of Current English

The Oxford scholars have studied how the word is currently used and understood: "community of people of mainly common descent, history, language, etc., forming a State or inhabiting a territory."

Only one meaning in the "Current English" dictionary. If someone has the full OED maybe they could quote some non-current usages - I think it once meant "tribe" or "ethnicity".

Some ethnic/religious movements invent their own meaning of "Nation" to push their claims to "Ancestral/historic/promised Homelands/Fatherlands".

tribe", "ethnicity", "mainly common descent": not really that much disagreement there. A brief note on OED's report would surely be a welcome addition to the article, I think we'd all agree. --Wetman 07:40, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I think, the concept of "diaspora" is not in complete accordance with the definition of Nation given by the Oxford Dictionary, since the concept does not need the people of a Nation neither to form a State nor to inhabit one single territory (not even a majority of the people to live in one territory). Moreover, I know there are also definitions of a Nation having "Subnations", as is the case in the Spanish Constitution. It refers to a Spanish Nation (indivisible) and to nationalities that form it.-N.M.B.R.Nbez 10:55, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

All modern political states, including Spain, claim to represent nations, as in "United Nations". Thus in the particular case of Spain an imaginary category "sub-nation" must be constructed. Spain is a state. Spain is not a nation-state. Galicians, Basques, Catalans are nations. Other subdivisions within Spain, like Estremadura, currently wish to be accorded comparable "autonomous community" status. These local issues might best be discussed in the entry Politics of Spain. --Wetman 19:40, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Spain is a state composed of the Spanish nationalities, that's plural, not singular. One could call these nationalities the greater Spanish nation, however that is very inaccurate, for example, the Basques generally do not consider themselves part of a greater Spanish nation, or greater French nation for that matter either. The Basques are a people (nation) who live primarily in the states (geographic regions) of Spain and France, more precisely they live in the Pyrenees that form the modern Spanish-French state border.

A better example would be the UK. Three and a third nations in one unitary state. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:21, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is the etimology section correct?

Just trying to help here. I may have missed the point, as I am no expert in the term myself. The English Wikipedia etimology section claims that

• "The first recorded use of the word "nation" was in 968, when Liutprand, bishop of Cremona, while confronting Nicephorus II, etc."

My question is, when Cicero (106 B.C.–43 B.C.) mentions nation ("natio") in his Oratio in Catilinam Altera Ad Populum (Second Oration Against Catiline) in 63 B.C. isn't that a good enough use of the term "nation" that both (1) predates Liutprand, bishop of Cremona and (2) indicates that it was a well established term by 63 b.C.?

I quote Cicero in Latin and in an English translation published in 1906 and available on the web:

• Nulla est enim natio, quam pertimescamus, nullus rex, qui bellum populo Romano facere possit. Omnia sunt externa unius virtute terra marique pacata; domesticum bellum manet, intus insidiae sunt, intus inclusum periculum est, intus est hostis. Cum luxuria nobis, cum amentia, cum scelere certandum est. Huic ego me bello ducem profiteor, Quirites; suscipio inimicitias hominum perditorum; quae sanari poterunt, quacumque ratione sanabo, quae resecanda erunt, non patiar ad perniciem civitatis manere. Proinde aut exeant aut quiescant aut, si et in urbe et in eadem mente permanent, ea, quae merentur, expectent.

• For there is no nation for us to fear,—no king who can make war on the Roman people. All foreign affairs are tranquilized, both by land and sea, by the valor of one man. Domestic war alone remains. The only plots against us are within our own walls,—the danger is within,—the enemy is within. We must war with luxury, with madness, with wickedness. For this war, O citizens, I offer myself as the general. I take on myself the enmity of profligate men. What can be cured, I will cure, by whatever means it may be possible. What must be cut away, I will not suffer to spread, to the ruin of the republic. Let them depart, or let them stay quiet; or if they remain in the city and in the same disposition as at present, let them expect what they deserve.

D walker 03:47, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I had the same feeling about the section, so I reworked it, using another quote from Cicero.

-- Ziusudra 20:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] National Identity

Is this the same as the article 'nation'? Perhaps a separate article needs to be written.ok

[edit] POV from the get go.

One of the most influential doctrines in history is that all humans are divided into groups called nations

How has it been determined to be one of the most influential doctrine?--Eddylyons 18:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

That also just doesn't make sense, is nationhood really a doctrine? I'd consider it the status of an established government, there is the doctrine of nationalism, but a nation itself is no more a doctrine than electricity.

Need a better intro. The first sentence should contain some sort of definition for starters. Nurg 06:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, I really think it is one of the most influential doctrines (that humans are divided in nations)! And there are esays about it, some that state the nation as something natural and bound to the person, but that this was forgotten for some time (and even that these nations are almost static) and some that state that the concept of nation itself was formed out of nationalism, i.e. that nationalistic movements tend to create nations and a common national historyt hat did not exist before.

As I know, the concept of the nation and nationalism has ben widely used for political purposes (good and bad) and established governments have used it to gain force or to try to get a basis of existence, especially in hard times. In this way, long-existing states dissappeared (not all well-functioning and even democratic regimes have to claim to rule over a nation and the population does not have to feel they form a nation to feel bounded to this state and its people), too, following a doctrine of exclusive nationalism and of exclusive nations, and even lead to wars in order to "protect the space of the ruling nation or of the nation that should possess the state or region". On the other hand, inclusive nationalism lead to wars in order to "re-unite" the nation (one extreme case is the national socialism of Nazi-Germany).

Further, nationalism, as something that creates the feeling of a nation, is something that appeared in Western Europe and was in that way unknown in other places before. What existed were loyalty bounds that united people in dominance and solidary unions. However, when these bindings started to fall apart (there was the ending of the Middle Age and the 30-Years War in Germany, the Turk invasion and the formation of the absolutistic states as a consequence of all these) is when the concept of the nation began to take force.--Nbez 23:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC) N.M.B.R.

The definition of 'a nation' is among the most controversial political issues, see Zionism. It has a separate section now.Paul111 17:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

That's all well and good... but it's still not a "doctrine". Per Wikipedia: Doctrine (Latin: doctrina) is a code of beliefs or "a body of teachings" or "instructions", taught principles or positions, as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system. How is the concept of a "nation" a doctrine by this definition?--Eddylyons 00:45, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review of Zionism

I asked for a peer review of the Zionism article, where the 'what-is-a-nation' issue is very relevant: see here Wikipedia:Peer review/Zionism/archive1.Paul111 17:33, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiproject Ethnic groups

I've just added {{ethnic group}} to this article. There is no intention of implying that nations equal ethic groups. However, the scope of Wikipedia:Wikiproject Ethnic groups is broad enough to include nations; to quote from its statement of scope, "This WikiProject aims primarily to provide guidelines for articles about ethnic groups and nationalities independent of writing about nation-states." Hope this will be OK with everyone. Please let me know if you feel that there is a different, existing WikiProject with which this would more appropriately be associated. - Jmabel | Talk 23:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nations Vs. Ethnic Groups

Having read the debate(s) above I feel that the existing definition of a nation does not make a clear distinction from an ethnic group. I believe adding something stating "A nation seeks some form of political self-governance while an ethnic group seeks cultural recogition." This is a more widely accepted defintion of a nation vs. ethnic group (Guibernau [1995], Billig [1995] amongst others) and accounts for Welsh nationalism vs. Cornish\Southern USA cultural recognition.

62.136.170.79 11:50, 28 February 2007 (UTC)mattthac (can't sign in on this computer) 11:49 27 February 2007

Agree completely with above post ..

I have seen a definition of " Nation " as " a Polity that is not subject to the jurisdiction of any other Polity " . ( sorry I can't give references ).

To me this is the only use of the term which fits the modern concept of the term Nation .

In the modern world ethnicity , common culture or genetic type etc. are practicaly irrelevant to the concept of Nation . For example Condoleza Rice shares basicaly none of those with George Bush but both are American Nationals .

Depends on the definition. See ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism. For instance, non-immigrant Austrians are Germans, though they have a separate state. Volga Germans are German as well, even though they speak a different language. Personally, I believe that your usage of "nation" is just a byword for "country". Condoleeza Rice and George Bush are both citizens of the US. --Humanophage (talk) 13:10, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

In my Nation there are approximately 150 plus cultural groups but all make up one single Nation . All owe allegience to and come under the jurisdiction of a single overarching Polity .

Lejon 30 APRIL 07

[edit] About the reference tag at under "nationalism

I thought that the one only need references when there was a chance of anyone disputing something. If there is, it would be a lot better to put a "fact"-tag at the disputed phrase, wouldn't it? A very quick read now did not give me anything to obect to. I think the tag should be removed unless there is something to dispute. DanielDemaret 09:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Naturalization

I think the following wording should be removed from the Nationalism section:

If the nation was defined only by citizenship, then naturalised citizens would be accepted as equal members of the nation, and that is not always the case. Citizenship may itself be conditional on a citizenship test, which usually includes language and/or cultural knowledge tests, see Life in the United Kingdom test

This is just plain doublespeak. The test in question is a filter on who may obtain citizenship and not something that keeps naturalized citizens from being accepted and treated as equals. JrFace (talk) 14:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

This is clearly wrong. It pertains to nationality, not to nation. Lihaas (talk) 19:57, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] See Also Deletion

I deleted the wiki-link to the page for List of Divided Nations. The page has a lot of problems and even the original author says he washes his hands of it. I think its fate needs to be decided before/if it is listed here. --Eddylyons (talk) 20:53, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Excellent introduction

I really like the introduction this article. Well done! Aaker (talk) 00:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

See my comments above. A "nation" is not an influential doctrine. Such a statement makes no sense. Think "Monroe Doctrine". Look up WP's definition and tell me how "nation" meets that criteria. Then tell me how it is influential. --Eddylyons (talk) 21:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Share a common identity"

What's that suppost to mean? 122.105.217.71 (talk) 07:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. It's different in each "nation", as the article says so often.--Wetman (talk) 12:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Revised opening paragraphs

My revisions and footnotes are intended to make the text more specific, more pointed and accurate in these axiomatic statements, and to support statements with examples and footnotes. I'm hoping the edits will inspire further improvements, and deter the jejune deleters and taggers. --Wetman (talk) 12:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] nation defined

this totally deviated from the defition of a nation, the political meaning of its roots, to what it has come to mean. Certainly this should be included, in the lead even, but it is not the crux of the lead. the definition, in academia and plenty of tracts and volumns and columns on what a nation is can be found in a whole host of places. (offline, i've not tried online) Any volume talking about the nation-state and it's origins will start off defining a nation and a state.

It may very well be that a "nation is a human cultural and social community," but not to include something about ethnicity or cultural homogeniatity is deviating from the truth of the definition.

I don't have the books in front of me, but if you see the various Indian nations in the Americas or the Celtic nations, some idea of a nation would come about. Lihaas (talk) 19:43, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Suggesting an External link -- NationStates.net?

Hi, I had one link that I suggest adding. To run down the usual background check. I'm not affiliated with it in any way-- nor have I been paid by them nor will I be. Nor do they even know who I am... etc... etc... :-) but I think it might help readers. NationStates.net runs a small (free) simulator tool that helps to show users some of the complexities of running a functioning country. I haven't used it in a number of years but I feel after all this time it changed my entire outlook on politics. It teaches the complexities that nations face by making you a leader of a country. You are then propositioned with 1 piece of various legislation once a day and asked to take a vote. Through your actions over time it will build a demographic of the kind of nation you have. Whether you have a Free nation(democratic), not free nation (dictatorship), semi-free(middle of the road) etc. CaribDigita (talk) 08:11, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] this whole article reads like a personal essay

I tagged it for POV, and worldwide view. Will try to get some more historic information in there in the future. Jasy jatere (talk) 11:22, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

This is rather overkill. If the article really did read like an essay we have a more appropriate template for that: {{essay-like}}. Please explain why you think the articles biased and lacks worldview. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 16:48, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

POV mainly because close to no citations are given. The whole idea of "nation" is treated as a given throughout the article, and not problematized and put into its historical context. See German or Spanish wp for how this could be done. Take the first sentence: "A nation is a cultural and social community. In as much as most members never meet each other, yet feel a common bond, it may be considered an imagined community." This is presented as the gospel. From Spanish wp :"El concepto de nación cultural es uno de los que mayores problemas ha planteado y plantea a las ciencias sociales, pues no hay unanimidad a la hora de definirlo." (The concept of cultural nation is one of the concepts which has caused and continues to cause major problems in the social sciences, since there is no unanimity how to define it.) From German wp: "Der Nationsbegriff, mit dem in der vorbürgerlichen Zeit an den ersten Universitäten die Studenten aus bestimmten europäischen Regionen als Nation (nationes) bezeichnet wurden, ist von der staatsbezogenen Nationsentwicklung zu unterscheiden, bei dem die (eigentlich verschiedenen) Begriffe Staat und Nation zu Beginn des Bürgertums und der Moderne miteinander verbunden oder gleichgesetzt werden." (Roughly, state and nation are linked and equated only in Modern Times with the rise of the middle class).

That's for the POV tag

As for the worldwide-view tag, it seems to me that the US as a whole has a rather uncritical approach to nation and nationalism, which is different in Europe. The uncritical approach and the critical approach should both be reflected. Still, the whole thing is centered on the West then. "Nation" in one of its major interpretations today is basically a child of 19th century romanticism in Europe. It is not clear how it could be applied to India or most of the countries of Africa. A true worldwide view would explain the different conceptualizations and adaptations of "Nation" in the major geographical areas of the world. Jasy jatere (talk) 08:33, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] cultural nation and religion

while I agree that the recent deletion by Blue Haired Lawyer was probably correct in the great lines, I think the fact that Malaysia requires her citizens to be Muslims could still be significant. As for the Arab thing, it already sounded a bit bogus to me when I translated it ...;-) Jasy jatere (talk) 20:45, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

The bit where it said:

"The concept of cultural nation changes if the defining characteristic is religion. The interpretation of cultural nation along religious line did not have much importance during the formation of the European states."

was also completely bogus. Religion is also interwoven in European nations. Just look at the conflict in Northern Ireland. Since that just left the bit about Malaysia, I decided to delete the whole thing. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 15:00, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

without wanting to engage in original research, it could be the case that the formation of European nations in the 19th century was indeed untainted by religion. But religion is of course a cultural phenomenon, so it makes little sense to treat it as separate from culture Jasy jatere (talk) 21:14, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Common language

"A language is the primary ingredient in the making of a nation. Without a common language a nation cannot evolve. A common Culture, a common History is dependent on Language. Also to deal with everyday affairs within a group of people living in a specified boundary need a common mean of communication to trade and socialize." (my bold) I don't really understand the apparent zeal in this section. Without citations it comes across as rather weak. The concept of an ingredient suggests a common language somehow preceding the creation of a nation. I'm not sure that this would have to be true. I also don't think that the idea of "evolution" of a nation is clear at all.Jimjamjak (talk) 13:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I removed some of the problematic wording. Feel free to cut out and rearrange other stuff, this article is definitely in need of more editors to weed out unecyclopaedic stuff. Jasy jatere (talk) 08:21, 3 April 2009 (UTC)