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Is that link relevant? It's merely an example of the usage of the term. Wouter Lievens 19:15, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] This page needs serious work.

I'm going to BE BOLD, as it were, and correct the various errors with this page I see, namely:

1. "Another suggestion is that "mob" is simply a corrupted form of "mop" in which consonantal transformation has occurred. The term "mop" was heavily used in the game Lineage to refer to all monsters. "MOP" is short for "machine operated player" according to the Lineage.com website. Groups of mops, as they are often hunted, were referred to as "mobs." It is possible that the term "mop" was corrupted and turned into "mob" by foreign players who did not understand the difference between the English "mob" (group of monsters) and "mop" (single monster). Then it made its way back into English parlance when those players migrated from Lineage to Everquest where the term "mob" suddenly came into heavy use to describe even single monsters. The term was then carried over to World of Warcraft as players from Everquest migrated from one game to another." - This is unsourced, and there are documented usages of "mob" in a similar context long before Lineage was even developed in 1998.

2. "At least one contrarian maintains that MOB stands for "Mean Old Bastard", and was "prettied up" to "Mobile OBject" when a student needed to turn in a formal paper and was required by a professor to explain the references to "MOB" in the code and documentation." - The source for this statement is the comment below. Original research is not permitted on Wikipedia.

-tommy.rousse (talk) 02:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Excellent. But why did you not cut the other unsourced statements? Changes well worth making... but I don't think you went far enough. sinneed (talk) 02:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I might look this over again in a few days and see if I can't add constructively to it after another vigorous pruning. Feel free to cut more content yourself. -tommy.rousse (talk)

Due to long squabbles involving emails, board postings, edit wars, revert wars, much pouting and general verbal sparring, I am only really willing to make changes I can back up with sourcing on this one. Sadly, as with a lot of online slang, sourcing is staggeringly difficult. In the 1970s, there was no email, little online activity at all. I remember when ARPANET (to be DARPANET and then later the Internet) 1st arrived at our university. But documents? Possibly the student papers at the time would have them. But I am in no way tempted to try to go to the archives there and try to find undergraduate and graduate papers that may never have been written. ;0)~ Even with newer slang like "nerf", the problem is almost insurmountable. Thank you for your work on the article. Sadly, what I perceive as the fact behind this term will live only on the discussion page. :) I do fully support its cutting, but ... *shrug*.sinneed (talk) 13:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mobiles

In a 1996 article on MUDs expanding on a 1990 article, the term "mobiles" for "mobs" is used several times. Is THIS perhaps the origin of the term? - BalthCat 04:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, and here's the URL. Oops! - BalthCat 05:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Dr. Richard Bartle, who co-wrote the original MUD, actually writes in his book Designing Virtual Worlds that he called them mobiles because they meandered randomly, like a hanging Mobile (Footnote 30 on page 102). 80.246.32.32 07:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Richard Bartle did not co-write the original MUD. http://www.ludd.luth.se/mud/aber/mud-history.html. By 1996 the term Mob/Mobiles had been around for quite a few years.

- Dr. Bartle most kindly recalled 1st using this term in 1980: "In terms of date, this would be 1980." in response to my request for a date. The 1996 date given by the above anon editor was the date of an update to a 1990 article about the early MUD history. Sinneed (talk) 20:27, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The ludd.luth.se link being dead, here is a current one http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/mudhist.htm Sinneed (talk) 00:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

In support of this I asked Richard in email

A little debate came up on the origin of the game term MOB. Some say it means "man or beast" some say it is Mobil OBject.

It's more like the latter than the former, but isn't that either. When I took over programming MUD1, all objects except player characters were static, ie. they didn't move. I wanted some objects that did move, so I could use them for monsters etc.. I needed a name, for programming reasons if nothing else (the variable names, the record structure name). I didn't want to call them "monsters", though, because I could see their being used for non-monsters, eg. helpful humans. I decided to go with "mobiles" as a familiar form of "mobile objects", and because of the happy coincidence of the name's existing use for a those hang-from-the- ceiling secorations that consist of a bunch of seemingly independent entities moving withing predefined constraints. Thus, mobiles were born. The name was passed down through generations of subsequent virtual worlds, until in the late 90s people started shortening it to "mobs". Thus, mob doesn't stand for Mobile OBject, it's a shortened form of "mobile", which in turn is the quick name I gave to mobile objects in MUD1. "Man Or Beast" is a retro-fit. Hope this helps. Richard —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.18.194.203 (talk) 18:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

- I followed up and got a wealth of other information, including a date of 1980 for the first use of "mobile" in this context. I will continue to investigate seeking 1970's information.Sinneed (talk) 20:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I think this page needs updating.

There are now a large number of computer games in which the term "mobs" is literal - it refers to large groups of monsters. Magnate

I would view that as the designers simply using the word "mob" literally, not a new use of the word, and so it doesn't need to be included. "A mob of monsters" = "A mob", etc. - BalthCat 16:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

? But the article starts with "a mob is a type of NPC", which is just not correct for a number of modern games. So at the very least it could start with "apart from where the word is used in its literal sense, a mob is ..." - or something. I agree we don't need a big exposition of what a literal mob is! - Magnate

Shall we add "When not referring to actual war machines, a Tank is ..." to tank? "When not referring to the fairy-like creatures..." to Sprite? Both things occur in computer gaming, in both forms. We might have to change an awful lot of articles where homonyms (er, I forget what "identically spelled" words are called... my bad) occur in the same situations. It seems unnecessary to me. A disambiguation link at the top might be best. - BalthCat 00:58, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I see your point. I guess it's not that important. I just felt that someone might come to this article thinking it was about dealing with large groups of enemies, only to find that it refers to something decades older. Never mind. Magnate 10:53, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I had to read the discussion page to find out that it wasn't a mistake or something. =/ 66.38.19.158 (talk) 15:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Definition

I always thought a 'mob' was a kind of monster that hangs out in large groups.

I'm pretty sure that's just "a mob". - BalthCat 19:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems a common mistake, possibly due to the use of the term 'the mob' in reference to Roman citizens. As most MUD and MMORPGs are fantasy based it seems an easy conclusion to jump to.

I was against the use of mob short for mobile. Im on record saying it sounds funny to me. However someone clued me into the etymology http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=mob&searchmode=none

Mob: 1688, "disorderly part of the population, rabble," slang shortening of mobile, mobility "common people, populace, rabble" (1676), from L. mobile vulgus "fickle common people" (1600), from mobile, neut. of mobilis "fickle, movable, mobile," from movere "to move" (see move). In Australia and N.Z., used without disparagement for "a crowd." Meaning "gang of criminals working together" is from 1839, originally of thieves or pick-pockets; Amer.Eng. sense of "organized crime in general" is from 1927. The verb meaning "to attack in a mob" is attested from 1709. Mobster is first attested 1917. Mob scene "crowded place" first recorded 1922. Mobocracy "mob rule" is attested from 1754.

So while it is short for mobile, it wasnt coined in 1970s MUD era. It originated in Latin. If anything the etymology on the page is inaccurate and needs changing.

Above comment was unsigned.

The usage of the word mob you've quoted above does not share a common etymology with the usage this page concerns, which is short for mobile. It is not related to the use of the term "mob" meaning a group of people. The above is merely a homonym of the topic discussed on this page. 216.36.186.2 (talk) 21:41, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

It did mention 'slang shortening of mobile'. the problem as I see it is that the two usages are the same word, short for the same word, allegedly unrelated. This just makes it that much more confusing for anyone who has always seen 'mob' associated with 'group of baddies' in the same genre of games. 66.38.19.158 (talk) 15:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I have a different perspective.

Back in my youth, MOB meant "Mean Old Bastard", and was used by some (perhaps very few) of us who wrote and played very early computer games (1970s).

Someone was writing about his game for a paper to turn in for credit. He (I recall it was a male, and I am unsure about the school - I think it was a California USA university) needed a socially acceptable meaning for "MOB", which appeared in a great deal of discussion, internal documentation, and variable names. The "Mobile OBject" or "MOBile object" or "MObile oBject" was suggested by someone, somewhere, and used. I graduated, went into industry, and years later (25ish) in 1999 I was introduced to MMORPGs. I greeted the "Mobile OBject" story with great laughter, and I fear I offended a few of my fellows who thought I was making fun of their newfound hobby.

So, bad news, NO, MOB does NOT mean "MObile oBject" or "Mobile OBject". That is a "prettying up" like "SLUF" being "Short Little Ugly Fellow" and "BUFF" meaning "Big Ugly Fat Fellow".

I haven't decided where, or even if, this is worth putting into the "face" of the article. I have no citations, have contact with no one else from those days, and certainly no notes.

Nevertheless, this is what I remember from the days of or before "Rogue" and "Hack" and "Colossal Cave" and "Empire" and many many other old games.

---

I decided to put it in, and welcome comment. If you take it out, please be ready to explain why, or I will put it back in. Thank you. :)

And yes I used "site" instead of "cite". I apologize.

Sinneed (talk) 04:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of "mob skill"

A quick Internet search for "maplestory mob skill" shows some usage, despite the anonymous deleting editor not having heard the term. I debate whether or not the deletion was a good idea. At the moment I think the deletion seems OK. Other thoughts? sinneed (talk) 12:10, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] MOBs vs. NPCs, Hostile or not.

Consider WoW: to an Alliance player, Horde NPCs are MOBs. The reverse is also true. Consider EQ, Velious expansion: If one is on Giant faction, the Dragons are MOBs. Again, the reverse is also true.

Many MOBs are not hostile. They may even be friendly. In DAoC, EQ, WoW, Conan, and other MMORPGs there are MOBs that will fight back if attacked, but which will not attack otherwise. sinneed (talk) 13:15, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

An older EQ example: Some who played Druids argued that Druids should not kill most animals, since the animals were friendly to Druid class PCs. The animals were still MOBs, and would attack any other class... the wolves and bears just liked Druids. sinneed (talk) 13:34, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

On a related point, all MOBs are NPCs (Non-Player Character). NPCs are not all MOBs. Some NPCs can't attack and can't be attacked. sinneed (talk) 16:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hatchetized

I cut out some more of the unsourced and unrelated.sinneed (talk) 08:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Dr. Bartle did use MOBILE ...

However, that does not mean that is where MOB comes from. Among other theories, the "mobile" or "sprite" used in graphics may have been the source. And no, even if Dr. Bartle did claim in his book that his use of MOBILE was the source of the neologism MOB in computer gaming, that would only mean it was a nicely documented theory.sinneed (talk) 06:02, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Removing unsourced vs. adding more.

I don't oppose hacking out every single unsourced bit... but adding more is just no good. Stating the most popular theory as fact is no good, without an independent source. I and other editors have corresponded with Dr. Bartle, and his thoughts are quite interesting, his knowledge of the history quite deep. But we can't use any of that.sinneed (talk) 06:05, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Why leave in the bit about emitters and such?

"Other MUDs and MUD-like software use a variety of terms to describe these as objects, emitters, and actors." The reason I did not kill it in the unsourced-stuff-killing was that it strengthens the proposal that the "mobile" was the source of current usage of "mob". It is unsourced and certainly killable, but... are you challenging it?sinneed (talk) 06:28, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Hmm, page 102, footnote

This conflicts with the use of the book to cover the part about mobiles in the MUD subsection. I *knew* I had read that somewhere.sinneed (talk) 06:33, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Further, I can't find the quote in the book.
"an incredibly beautiful analogy to those hanging toys, which appear to move around randomly as if alive, while in fact being composed of mechanical parts and operating in accordance with fixed scientific laws"
sinneed (talk) 06:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I dug back, and that citation was added in Dec 2007, removing a fact-flag from Feb. I think we can take Dr. Bartle's word for it from page 102, and eliminate that story. I will cut it out and block quote it here.sinneed (talk) 06:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

The term "mobile" was used by Richard Bartle in a paper describing an early MUD which was being constructed as a research project at the University of Essex. In the paper, he used it to refer to an object that could move, as opposed to one that could not. One reviewer of the paper misunderstood the term to be a reference to the classic children's toy or sculpture of the same name, and referred to it as "an incredibly beautiful analogy to those hanging toys, which appear to move around randomly as if alive, while in fact being composed of mechanical parts and operating in accordance with fixed scientific laws". Bartle stated that he was also impressed by the analogy, and wished he had thought of it.

...is what I cut.sinneed (talk) 06:57, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] MUDs (Multi-User Dungeons)

Dr. Bartle states in "Designing Virtual Worlds" that he first called virtual creatures "mobile objects" in MUD1. ref name="bartle1"/ Other MUDs and MUD-like software use a variety of terms to describe these as objects, emitters, and actors.

Well, I had readded what he actually said in the book... but it substantially duplicates the earlier text... I don't want to lose those early editors' work, but I am not sure how this fits in the article now, so I cut and paste it here for future editors to ignore or use.sinneed (talk) 07:06, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Monster versus monster (MvM)

"Monster versus monster (MvM) battles also take place in some games." Does this belong at all, right now? MvM seems to me to be used only for story-line, quests, and events. It is going to be complex to expand, I should think. It isn't rare, though... at least not in WoW.sinneed (talk) 07:22, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Citation concern.

I added a citation for the Diku/EQ link...but it concerned me that it would seem to cover the 1st part of the sentence. I am not fact-flagging that to show doubt... only to show the later citation doesn't cover it.sinneed (talk) 07:53, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

~~== Objection to the aggressive mob statement? ==~~

~~Why kill it?sinneed (talk) 07:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)~~ Nevermind... it was there. Sorry. :(sinneed (talk) 07:57, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

DikuMUD uses the term 'mobile' in the source code (verifiable), which is what the text originally referred to. Your sprite claim really has no place in Wikipedia. I'm sure monsters have been given a variety of names, and 'mobile' aka 'mob' by Bartle is the one that stuck. So even if your claim is correct it's irrelevant for an encyclopedic article, all primary and secondary sources point toward MUD1. --Scandum (talk) 15:53, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

"claim" - no. However, it does not have a source, and I am, as I said, happy to see any of the unsourced stuff cut, hopefully with a note that says something like "flagged for a year, cutting unsourced", rather than a number of edits with no edit summary.
"...is the one that stuck..." - no independent source. Dr. Bartle is an expert on what he did, not on whether or not the term he used is the source for the current slang. Surely his source is good enough to leave the possibility in. It certainly is not enough to turn the possibility into a fact. That would need an independent source.sinneed (talk) 16:18, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
I added a link to the Diku source code to provide backing for the source claim and reworded it a bit to hopefully reduce ambiguity. Kylotan (talk) 14:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I liked the source addition, but I don't think the change clarified things. I put in new proposed wording.- sinneed (talk) 19:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] MOB (sprite) cut

"Another suggestion is that the gaming usage is related to Movable Object Block (MOB), a synonym of sprite."

This was originally cut without comment. It is challenged above, and is without a source. Article as a whole has been tagged for sourcing. Cutsinneed (talk) 16:40, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Bacronyms - leave in or kill?

"Backronyms for "MOB" include "monster or beast" and "mere ordinary beast", among others."

Does it belong?

sinneed (talk) 16:49, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Removed first hand source cut

In Dr. Bartle's words:

When I took over programming MUD1, all objects except player characters were static, ie. they didn't move. I wanted some objects that did move, so I could use them for monsters etc.. I needed a name, for programming reasons if nothing else (the variable names, the record structure name). I didn't want to call them "monsters", though, because I could see their being used for non-monsters, eg. helpful humans.

I decided to go with "mobiles" as a familiar form of "mobile objects", and because of the happy coincidence of the name's existing use for a those hang-from-the-ceiling [d]ecorations that consist of a bunch of seemingly independent entities moving within predefined constraints. Thus, mobiles were born. The name was passed down through generations of subsequent virtual worlds, until in the late 90s people started shortening it to "mobs". Thus, mob doesn't stand for Mobile OBject, it's a shortened form of "mobile", which in turn is the quick name I gave to mobile objects in MUD1. "Man Or Beast" is a retro-fit.

<ref>Email conversation between Richard Bartle and Erik Anderson April 14th 2008</ref> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.18.187.23 (talk) 08:35, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Edited to show the source with nowiki/nowiki tags. - no content change. WP uses secondary sources, rather than primary.- sinneed (talk) 15:58, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Enemy

I have not heard the term MOB before reading it hear, I can accept it is used and that I have just never come across it. The term I have always known is "enemy" and seems to be virtually the same thing as the article describes. As I would describe it of the top of my head: An enemy is a character or unit in a video game that can harm or kill the player character(s) or player's units. Or a character or team the player competes against, in games that are not "kill" based. In one player games enemies are computer controlled and may have simple patterns of movement or varying levels of artificial intelligent. In multiplayer or online games enemies can also be computer controlled but may also be characters, teams or units that are controlled by other human players competing against each other and oneself. The term enemy would suggest that in the world of the game the thing called an enemy is or contains a character or animate being as opposed to to an inanimate obstacle, trap, or hazard that may just happen to harm the player character on contact. I think "enemy" should be mentioned as a term I am sure it very widely used with simular meaning but to find sources I have never looked, maybe easy to find maybe hard. I wouldn't be sure at creating another article at "Enemy (gaming)" as it is so similar and if I wrote it would be very short, there are already many gaming terms here on Wiki such as "Boss" and "level". I would think just to mention the term in this article. What are your thoughts about Mob and/or Enemy and how to put them in here Carlwev (talk) 05:47, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps, if there is notability, a new article called "Enemy (video games)" - I would not think it would belong here, except as a "see also".- sinneed (talk) 13:38, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Enemy is not really a specific gaming term. Mob may not be universal in use, but "enemy" is just an enemy, basic English. A mob is a particular type of entity, whereas "enemy" is just an adversary. Basic competition/challenge dynamic. The universal term for non-player entities that aren't necessarily mobs is "NPC" (which already exists) rather than "enemy". - BalthCat (talk) 22:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Enemy already used in Wikipedia

Done properly we should find source(s) using the term enemy (as well as mob for here) before including the term here. However I would like to point out Wikipedia itself already has these lists which use the term enemy in their title an text, enemy seems widely used for nintendo games (but officially?)

plus we had previously more lists that were deleted or merged, due to notability or game guide issues but seemed to have little or no problem with the term enemy.

Interestingly we have List of characters in the Kirby series which has protagonists and enemies in it. but we also have Recurring characters in the Mario series and Recurring characters in The Legend of Zelda series as separate articles to the enemy lists mentioned above. The assumed use I think is an enemy is a type of creature or being that there can be many of where as a character is an individual that there is only one of and maybe friendly/neutral or maybe hostile/an enemy. Bosses like Ganon/Ganondorf and Bowser appear on both enemy and character lists as they are enemies but individual ones as opposed to a type of creature. We are also using the term monster for some games like Character design of Final Fantasy#Monsters

My point is it would not be proper to state what the term means with no reference(s). But we are already using the term in articles and article titles with an assumed meaning which seems odd. Carlwev (talk) 01:04, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

It's an English word, "enemy", I'm not sure why you have to source it. Mob, you do, because its use would be unexpected or difficult to understand. "List of mobs in Mario" would make people think that there were either crime gang mobs, or large unruly group mobs. - BalthCat (talk) 05:56, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

What about from the Zelda series? Enemies were called MOBlins. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.30.125.33 (talk) 08:20, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Monster on board

Anecdote: In EverQuest, in the Ocean of Tears, there are Cyclops monsters. One day, long after MOB had entered the jargon, a bug allowed 2 Cyclops to get onto the boat, and they could not path off. The global chat of "MOB! MONSTER ON BOARD IN OOT!" was just a humorous bit about the situation. I am sure it has been used elsewhere, but it remains a non-notable backronym.- Sinneed 19:19, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

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