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Contents 1 Quick question on wording 2 Islamic Finance and Green Econ. 3 NPOV 4 Goodoldpolonius2 and Me 5 Can I have help with this? 6 Economical 7 List of Muslim businesspeople 8 Business Method Patents 9 Calling Loans and Interest 10 History section 11 Jagged 85's new additions 12 Jagged 85's new additions and creating a new article 13 Bless sins additions 13.1 POV tag added because of unduewieght given to Nomani and Rahnema 14 Multiple tags added 15 Understanding Basic Islamic Texts 16 Christianization of Islamic finance 17 banking interest section 18 mention of success or failure of approach

[edit] Quick question on wording

The second sentence of the second paragraph states the following:

It seeks an economic system based on uplifting the deprived masses, a major role for the state in matters such as circulation and equitable distribution of wealth and ensuring participants in the marketplace are rewarded by being exposed to risk and/or liability. (emphasis added)

It seems to make sense to me that participants are rewarded FOR being exposed to risk, not BY being exposed to risk.

Perhaps we should change it??

Meson537 (talk) 09:54, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Islamic Finance and Green Econ.

I removed the following paragraph:

The modern idea of ecosystem valuation prevalent in such theories as Natural Capitalism is probably ultimately due to traditions that originated there. There are also parallels between the notions of khalifa and land stewardship. Some think green economics parallels the economics of Islam, with similar ethical base for society-wide economic decisions. The terminology Four Pillars of the Green Party seems to echo the Five Pillars of Islam.

The attempt to connect Green politics with Islamic economics seems extremely strained to me. If someone can provide sources indicating that there is really such a connection, rather than this speculation, I have no objection to them rewriting this for inclusion in the article. --Michael Snow 15:46, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

Somebody reverted my changed claiming they were POV. The original text was: "Some of these revived traditional micro venture capital and ethical investing frameworks that thrived in medieval times. However, they incorporated many modern techniques and technologies. Some consider the emergence of these economic practices to be part of a revival of Islam and an Islamization of knowledge. Others see them simply as a practical and wise response to problems of global debt and debt slavery." Words like "simply a practical and wise response" are very POV.

In an attempt to NPOV it a bit, I removed some of the more laden words and added a new sentence. The article I linked (which was removed) was hardly critical of Islamic Economics, it did argue however, that Islamic Economics has its genesis in attempts to create a sense of ethnic identity for Muslims in India, rather than because of concerns about ethics or religion. This seems like a sane addition, and is fully sourced and reputable. Please see the link [1], and tell me why it was removed, and why the current text is NPOV... --Goodoldpolonius2 01:58, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Goodoldpolonius2 and Me

Sorry Goodoldpolonius2, I wasn't looking well enough and I did revert too much, your last sentence and link has a place. Notes on what I hope you'll see as a respectable compromise. Sophistication isn't POV, most economic systems are relatively sophsiticated and I also think practical is fine because they are seen by many who support them as a practical response to debt problems and ethicism in the banking world. I shouldn't have removed your sentence so I only added that prepositional phrase reflecting that it is referring to the 20th century... since there were really early attempts (like instituted in Medina in 630...) gren 04:50, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Looks good, thanks for being helpful. --Goodoldpolonius2 04:55, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Sorry about my premature revert and all :( that wasn't very nice of me. gren 05:15, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Can I have help with this?

07:10, 27 August 2005 Free them (rv - prank edit?) (→Islamic law)

Islamic law advises against charging interest on loans for it can lead people to a life of servitude.

I believe this to be true can I have help with it? Political hack 16:51, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, firstly... I don't believe a US law such as that has any place in the Islam article. Secondly you have to source what you put in articles, what you believe is not so important. If you can find a source and show how it's relevant then maybe something of what you want might be added. But, I think this fits more into Islamic economics articles... hah, I read what you wrote incorrectly the first time... however the US law is irrelevant and I don't think it really belongs on this already over-crowded page. gren グレン 17:18, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Gren is right. Indeed, in the 7th century, there was no such law, neither in Islamic law nor in American law. Basically, charging interest on loans is forbidden in Islamic law because it is simply considered as "opportunistic". Cheers -- Svest 17:24, August 27, 2005 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up ™}

Can I use the words "advises against" instead of "forbidden"? Because millions of Muslim and me are charging or paying interest on loans. In 7th century and through out recorded time there were and are today "opportunistic" interest charging laws. Is it fair to say today under Islamic law that the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 (had a 30% interest rate cap removed form the bill) is a "opportunistic" law?

The Act contains a compulsory adult education program to forcibly teach people to pay there interest charging loans. Can a Muslim on religious grounds refuse to go to a compulsory adult education class that forcibly teaches about paying interest charging loans that is "forbidden" under Islamic law? Political hack 04:57, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

If you are planning to convert to Islam and then argue that you don't have to attend the program because it's haram (forbidden) -- that's not sincere, and in the current political climate, I don't think it would work anyway. Zora 05:40, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree, if the program is a "haram" many more people will convert to Islam. Political hack 08:36, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

There are important points of view in this field that have not been at all represented here: such as the view that efforts to hold finance within the Islamic world to medieval models is a regressive one, that impedes development. That obviously is a controversial POV and as such shouldn't be adopted here, but it should be mentioned. Here's a link to one schjolarly exposition of this point of view. --Christofurio 02:01, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=475205

[edit] Economical

Would suggest this page be called Islamic economic jurisprudence instead. Specifically what I'm driving at: there's no need to use the -al form just to be inline with Islamic political jurisprudence, etc. "Economic" itself is already an adjective, and has a different meaning than "economical" (which these days has basically degenerated into a fancy word for "cheap"). Similar change for the Fiqh infobox too. cab 19:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

If there is no objection to this I will be bold and move the page. cab 06:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of Muslim businesspeople

I merged the list which used to be on its own. See the talk page and its old AfD for more information. Like others who commented on it, I think the list is a bad idea unless it can be shown that the people's faith affects their business practices, for instance if someone explicitly says, "As a practicing Muslim I feel I should follow certain guidelines when making business arrangements." Otherwise the list is endless--there are millions of Muslim businessmen. At the very least they should be important enough to have their own articles, which is why I'm putting all red-link names here.

• Shamil Khakimov, publisher
• Abu Ahmed Fokyoo, CEO of National Bank of Australia
• Ryan Darvish Real Estate Developer
• Ayhan Hakimoglu, armaments
• Nemir Kirdar, venture capital
• Rashid A. Chaudhry, personal care products
• Yusef Haroon, consulting and managerial services
• Ali Nawaz khan
• Ahujan Chakkeri,investment,India
• Haitham Alfuqahaa CEO LUNA Industries
• Fahrudin Radoncic,famous Bosnian juournalist and businessman
• Yusuf Hameed, Indian Pharmacutical Giant

Tocharianne 18:29, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Business Method Patents

I added a short section on business method patents related to Sharia compliance of financial services. The number is admittedly small, but I thought it might be of interest to the readers. I have no financial interest in any of the inventions.--Nowa 21:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Calling Loans and Interest

Under a conventional interest based loan it is possible to "call" the loan if the interest rate drops and the borrower finds that he can find cheaper financing (i.e. pays off the entire loan before the end of its term, thus paying less interest). However, there is no way to call a loan issued by an Islamic bank. Thus, while the borrower from an Islamic bank is protected against interest rate increases, the borrower cannot benefit from interest rate drops.

Isn't this a redundant statement, because borrowers from Islamic Bank aren't subject to interest rate fluctuations anyway? --RawEgg1 01:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History section

Anon 61.5.134.68 added a large bit of text (18 paragraphs) to the history of Islamic economic jurisprudence section, that seem to be taken from an essay somewhere. It's all very interesting, but contains a lot of un-encylopedic opinions, e.g.:

Islam made a distinction between the economic system and economic science i.e. it views them as two separate issues. This is because there is a fundamental difference between the method of production of goods and services (economic science) from the manner of their distribution (economic system).

...with no citations, nor references to Sunna or Quran. Consequently I deleted it. --BoogaLouie 17:56, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jagged 85's new additions

Shouldn't much of the new text, such as Early Muslim commerce, be in Islamic economics in the world article? rather than Islamic economic jurisprudence? --BoogaLouie (talk) 01:12, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Point taken. I've moved the new text to Islamic economics in the world instead. Jagged 85 (talk) 00:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jagged 85's new additions and creating a new article

re: Early Muslim economic thought , Ibn Khaldun , etc.

To what extent were Ibn Khaldun ideas based on jurisprudence rather than his study of society? If they are based on the latter and not the former, then maybe we need an article on Muslim economic thought to join this article and Islamic economics in the world. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bless sins additions

Please argue for the reliability of the source Nomani and Rahnema. What are their qualifications, and is the publisher an academic press. Arrow740 (talk) 07:02, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Both Nomani and Rahnema are Professors of Economics at the American University of Paris.Bless sins (talk) 21:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the current version of the article is giving undue wieght to Nomani and Rahnema and probably some other imaginative Islamists. There ought to a number of additions to sentences saying "According to Prof. Nomani and Rahnema..." --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Who said that Nomani and Rahnema are "imaginitive Islamists"? They are perfectly reliable sources.Bless sins (talk) 23:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

They have interesting or noteworthy ideas that Muslims and/or academics may want to debate ... or they may not, but this is an encyclopedia.

What we have to know is who Nomani and Rahnema speak for? Mainstream Muslims? A movement of Muslims? Or just themselves? --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:54, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. If a university professor talks about economics, who does he speak for? The public? Businesses? Just himself?Bless sins (talk) 20:48, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

When they say Islam accepts markets as the basic co-ordinating mechanism of the economic system, who are they speaking for? Last time I checked the Muslmi world had not voted in a referendum on the status of the market mechanism. --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV tag added because of unduewieght given to Nomani and Rahnema

There are some 20 odd cites of Nomani and Rahnema in Property section. We need discussion of who they speak for. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Multiple tags added

Statements like these are just not acceptable in a legitimate article: The origins of capitalism and free markets can be traced back to the Islamic Golden Age and Muslim Agricultural Revolution,[9]

Islam accepts markets as the basic co-ordinating mechanism of the economic system

Nomani and Rahnema ideas should be stated as such,. "According to Nomani and Rahnema ..." And where is the citation for their work? There are 20 cites for "Nomani and Rahnema" but what book or journal article did it come from?

[edit] Understanding Basic Islamic Texts

Someone contributed the following: "...Islamic law on economic issues was/is not "economics" in the sense of a systematic study of production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services. An example of the traditionalist ulama approach to economic issues is Imam Khomeini's work Tawzih al-masa'il where the term `economy` does not appear and where the chapter on selling and buying (Kharid o forush) comes after the one on pilgrimage."

The problem with this statement is that economics was never meant to be addressed in the Tawdih of Imam Khumayni, or the Tawdih of any marj`a of Shia Islam. We Shia Muslims follow a marj`a for rulings concerning Islamic practise in issues ranging from daily worship to food to marriage to lost and found objects. When any Shia Islamic scholar reaches the rank of a marj`a, he publishes his own set of Islamic rulings in a text called the Tawdih al Masa'il. Ayatullah Sistani's tawdih is caled "Al Masa;il al Muntakhabah;" the English translation is known simply as "Islamic Laws."

These simple manuals of religious jurisprudence were never intended to cover topics as heavy as economic systems. Certain Shia Islamic scholars who have attained a igher level of knowledge of mundane subjects such as economics, the chemical processes of food production, genetic engineering, etc. usually publish books that focus on these topics. Ayatullah Shahid (Martyr) Sadr published texts about economic issues, most notably "Iqtisaduna" ("Our Economics"). Imam Khumayni focused on mystical aspects of Islamic worship, Islamic etiquettes, and the study of hadith (Prophetic narrations). PinkWorld (talk) 01:43, 29 November 2008 (UTC)Pink

[edit] Christianization of Islamic finance

The Holy See has recently suggested that Western countries attempt to adapt Islamic finance to Western needs. Whether it is a christianization or not, it has not happened yet, although it is indeed a current and notable debate on the topic. [2] ADM (talk) 13:41, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] banking interest section

I removed the interest section as there didn't seem to be an entire subsection of material salvagable. "It is reported that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) cursed those who pay interest, those who receive it, those who write a contract based on it, and those who witness such a contract." {{who}} I did notice some substantial text in the previous editor's contributions but presumably they were removed for a reason and I don't know anything about the topic to be confident in restoring it. .froth. (talk) 03:26, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] mention of success or failure of approach

I know this is an incredibly emotional issue for many and don't envy the maintainer but I would like to see more content regarding the success (or failure) of the approach based on facts and free from emotional bias. The fact that %20 of the world pop is muslim and they account for %5 of the worlds GDP how does this relate to this religious approach to economics (ie directly applicable, other factors besides religion involved etc). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.56.25.30 (talk) 20:36, 26 August 2009 (UTC)