This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Hip hop music article.
	This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject. Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith Avoid personal attacks Be welcoming Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability
Archives: 1

	Hip hop music is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on January 25, 2005.
Article milestones Date Process Result December 10, 2004 Featured article candidate Promoted March 12, 2006 Featured article review Demoted March 28, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed August 1, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed Current Status: Former featured article

	This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Hip hop (Rated B-Class, Top-importance) Hip hopWikipedia:WikiProject Hip hopTemplate:WikiProject hip hopHip hop articles Hip hop portal v • d • e This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hip hop, a collaborative effort to build a useful resource for and improve the coverage of hip hop on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.  B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.  Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Comments: edit · history · watch · purge The wiki for hip hop is completely the I have read on the wiki pages. There are no references to any of the classic hip hop stars. Basically every music reference on the page can be replaced with something alot better. I see no Sugar Hill, Grand Master Flash, Tribe Called Quest, Pharside, .... the list just goes on and on. Grouping "gansta rap" inside the same page as hip hop is defeating the point entirely. Mostly in my opinion this is an article about MTVs greatest hits. Hip hop isn't music or a person. It is a culture. It is a way of dress, of life, and living. Hip-hop and Rap are entirely different things. It is an absolute travesty that one can say that that one is another name for the other. Hip-hop is a type of groove based around swung semiquavers and emphasis on beats 2 and 4 of the bar. Rap is a vocal technique applying rhythm to spoken words. Rap can appear in any type of music, hip-hop is just one of them. RnB also has rap. So does Garage, Drum'n'Bass, Hard House and Techno and it would be foolish to rule out anything else one may care to name. Hip-hop doesn't have to have any rapping in it to be hip-hop. If it's got a hip-hop groove, clever manipulation of samples, jazzy vibes, scratches, it's hip-hop. Hip-hop evolved from jazz, so don't be surprised to hear hip-hop with horns playing the main melody, or having a sung vocal line for that matter. Most of the gangster rap music heard today is about as far removed from hip-hop as it is from smooth jazz. It contains very few of the same elements - the beats are minimal, there is very little rhythmic drive, there is rarely more than one sample used and it's not used very creatively and the rapping is often in front of the beat and the rhythmic feel straight. It's more like poetry with sound-effects than rapping in front of an upbeat driving bouncing groove, which is what hip-hop is all about. Please can someone choose to write one article about hip-hop while another chooses to write about rap? It's true that rap came from hip-hop long before it expanded into other genres but in the context of the present you can't talk about both as if they're the same thing because rap has moved in all sorts of different directions while hip-hop is and always will be hip-hop, with or without rap. WikiProject Media   MediaWikipedia:WikiProject MediaTemplate:WikiProject MediaMedia articles Journalism portal v • d • e This article is within the scope of WikiProject Media, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Media on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.  ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.  ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Media To-do List: Here are some tasks you can do: Requests: Myanmar News Agency, Lisa Sylvester (CNN reporter) Verify: Multimedia, Alternative media, Alternative newspaper Cleanup: Media influence, Video game culture NPOV: Content (media and publishing) WikiProject Music genres   Music genresWikipedia:WikiProject Music genresTemplate:Genremusic genre articles Music portal v • d • e Hip hop music is within the scope of WikiProject Music genres, a user driven attempt to clean up and standardise music genre articles on Wikipedia. Please visit the project guidelines page for ideas on how to structure a genre article and help us assess and improve genre articles to good and 1.0 standards.  ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
This article has an assessment summary page.

Archives
Archive 1	Archive 2

Contents 1 Archived 2 Merge, poll 2.1 Support 2.2 Oppose 3 Rename, poll 3.1 Support 3.2 Oppose 4 Question of hip-hop/rap merger 4.1 RE: this article is dumb 4.2 "Hip Hop" vs. "Rap" -- They are not synonyms! 4.3 An Article for Rap Music 5 Question of hip-hop music/culture etc merger 5.1 Merge attempt 5.2 Merged 5.3 Why "Hip hop music" and not just "Hip hop"? 5.4 Request for merger 6 History 7 Added Cite Tag to Islam section 8 hip hop post-modernism? 9 this article is way incomplete 10 The decline of Rap Sales? 11 Feminism Quote 12 Clean up 13 Hyper-Masculinity 14 Inaccuracies, POV and OR. 15 Hindu music?? 16 GA Nomination 17 Criticism 18 Is this real? 19 Citing sources 20 Hip Hop Genres 21 Politicization and The Clash 22 Ridiculous overstatements 23 Nu metal? 24 who is the original author of this article?? 25 Kanye West? 26 2000s 27 History : H.I.P. H.O.P. french TV show, the very first entirely hip-hop TV show in the world 28 Reggae conections 29 Redirect 30 References 31 Scandinavian? 32 Rap rock/Rapcore/Rap Metal 33 Origins of the term Hiphop. 34 Okay, really. 35 incomplete 36 Rapping vs Rap music vs Hip hop vs Hip hop music 37 You need to make a change. 38 Namie Amuro & Hip-Pop 39 2000s 40 Puerto Rican vs "Latino" American 41 Two articles 42 Casper's Groovy Ghost Show Record

[edit] Archived

I archived this monster talk page to Talk:Hip hop music/archive 2. CredoFromStart ^talk 13:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC) alor touts li maroc ils forts*

[edit] Merge, poll

}} Hello there. I see no reasons why articles named Rapping and Hip Hop music should not be merged.

"I do... they are two different things. "Rapping" is an incorrect term for emceeing, which is a component of hip hop music." -Jonathan in Whistler

Rapping article fails to describe rapping as a vocal techniqe separate from rap music genre. 90% of Rapping article actually desctibe the history of American hip hop.

On the other hand, Hip Hop music article in its current form describes Rap music as well. Why should be have two articles on the same subject? That's my first reason for merging them.

If you believe that both articles may be improved to not mix up things like it happens right now, please read further...

I would probably agree that rapping as a vocal style is used in genres other than rap music. I would name Western African folk music, rap metal, big beat, dancehall, grime music... That's probaly all, but that's enough. However!

1. Rap metal, big beat and grime music are all fusion genres of rap music with rock and dance music. They are all offsprings of US rap music, no more!

2. When talking about West African folk music or dancehall, "rapping" in these genres are almost never refered as such. Instead, terms like "chanting" and "deejaying" are used. Additionaly, they differ a lot from rapping as using in US hip hop.

Actually, pure rapping is only used in rap music and its many sub-genres.

So, I strongly doubt that there's a need for a separate article on rapping as a vocal style. That's my second reason for merging Rapping and Hip Hop music.

If you disagree, please:

1. Re-write Rapping article first so it would describle subject as a vocal style used in different genres (and not mention US hip hop apart from "main article" link).

2. Re-write Hip hop music article so it would not not mention US hip hop apart from "main article" link.

I don't think it's possible.

---

[edit] Support

1. Support as nominator. Netrat_msk (talk) 10:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
2. Support. Hip hop and rapping should be merged into hip hop music. The more articles on a given subject, the worse quality of each article. Cosprings (talk) 19:04, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for support, but my suggestion was to merge rapping and rap music (currently redirecting to hip hop music). I didn't mention hip hop article at all... Such article may be excessive, but that's another subject. Also, I belive rap music is a better term for rap music. Hip hop music is probably a wider term embrasing rap music, turntablism, electro funk etc. Netrat_msk (talk) 23:01, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oppose

I OPPOSE I BELIEVE THAT RAPPING AND HIP-HOP SHOULD NOT BE MERGED, THOUGH SIMILAR, THERE ARE DIFFERENCES, I THINK THE SEPARATION IS DUE TO THE BEAT, THE CONCEPT, THE ARTIST THE IMAGE, ALSO RAPPING IS ALSO THE ART OF SPITTING RAPPING CAN BE DONE BEAT OR NO BEAT, RAPPING IS A VERB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.193.2.4 (talk) 09:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I think all the extraneous stuff about hip hop and hip hop culture should be moved from the article on Rapping to the main article on hip hop, but the two should not be merged. The rapping article contains a lot of really good info on cadence and delivery and how rap works that would be off-topic or only tangentially for the article on hip hop (which focuses on hip hop culture and history). All that stuff is valuable and should be preserved. The problem is that this article has been bloated and stretched out way beyond what it needs to be, unnecessarily duplicating much of the US hip hop page. It needs to undergo some serious trimming, but once all the dead weight is gone it'll be a great article again. Anarchocelt (talk) 00:21, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Summary style appears to be more appropriate than merging. Hyacinth (talk) 00:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rename, poll

Hello there. I have read through archives and found out that there was a discussion in December 2005 about renaming the article to Hip Hop music. Although this have passed, the decision was wrong, and I can explain why.

This article starts with Hip hop music is a genre of music typically consisting of a rhythmic style of speaking called rap over backing beats performed on a turntable by a DJ. This is the description of rap music, not hip hop music!

Moreover, the existense of hip hop music as a separate genre is yet to be proven. Different people use hip hop music to refer to very different things. It is probably a meta genre rather than a genre.

By reading the whole article, one can see that it mainly describes rap music. So why should it be called Hip hop music and not Rap music?

Hip hop music is (not commonly accepted) term used to describe any form of music produced within hip hop culture, including rap music, turntablism, instrumental hip hop, b-boy breaks, electro funk and probalby neo soul.

Right now Rap music redirects to Hip hop music. This is wrong. Here are my suggestions:

Option A. Move Hip hop music to Rap music. Then leave Hip hop music as a redirect to Rap music.

Option B. Move Hip hop music to Rap music. Then create a new Hip hop music article to describe it as a meta-genre. Netrat_msk (talk) 09:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

---

[edit] Support

1. Support Option A as nominator . Option A is easier to do, but Option B would be better... Netrat_msk (talk) 17:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oppose

As there is an article on Rapping, as opposed to Rap music, would it not be simple to just help edit hip hop music? As large a component as it may be, Rapping is only one portion of hip hop music, and has been so since the early stages of the culture. Rap, "electro," etc. come from what would come to be known as "hip hop music," not vice-versa. it should be noted that even before cutting and scratching was widely used, early Hip Hop DJ's focused on lenghtening and splicing the breaks of records to create new music, not for the purpose of rapping, but for B-boy dancing. As previously discussed and agreed upon, redirecting to the title "Rap music" is confusing to the wikipedia reader, and unnecessarily so.-RoBoTam^ice 16:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Some people believe that hip hop music is more than just rap music. I already said, term Hip hop music may refer to any form of music produced within hip hop culture, including rap music, turntablism, instrumental hip hop, b-boy breaks, electro funk and probalby neo soul.

This article should PROBABLY describe hip hop music as a meta-genre. However, right now this article describes rap music, and pays almost no attention to other kinds of hip hop music. And since this article in its current form describes rap music, shouldn't it be named "rap music"? I'm not against having a separate article for hip hop music as a whole. My idea is to move the current contents to rap music and then re-write hip hop music to reflect other genres of the music. So as you can, our opinions are actually much closer than it may seem, and I don't really see why you should oppose this... Are you convinced now? Netrat_msk (talk) 17:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I understood and agreed with your underlying point...in fact, I would suggest that "Rap Music" should remain a redirect, but might be better served redirecting to "Rapping," (which I believe it originally pointed to anyway) as opposed to redirecting to Hip hop music. The rap "contents" you spoke of is probably better placed in "Rapping," where a lot of it was lifted from anyway. Consensus was that Hip Hop remain its own article, rather than a disambig, because of the nuances of various sub-articles (hip hop culture, hip hop music, etc.) that might not be readily apparent to someone outside the culture. I don't think the same applies to Rapping and Rap Music. what do you think? -RoBoTam^ice 20:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

First of all, I think that it would be quite hard to talk people who work on Rapping artice into changing the concept of their beloved brainchild. :-)

Any big job becomes easier when divided into small steps. That's why my proposal consists of several steps: first split current hip hop music article into "rap music" (the majority of current contents) and "hip hop music as a whole", this would make it obvious that "rap music" should be merged with "rapping". Thus it would be easier to get such merge approved by Wikipedia community.

Personally, I totally agree that there's no need for separate pages for Rapping and Rap music. As you can see, I have suggested the merge... under whatever name - Rap, Rapping or Rap music, while I would prefer Rap music title. However merging two rather long articles into one, while re-writing another article at the same time, seems to be more than I can handle. That's why I suggest taking first steps into this direction. Graduately.

On the other hand, people who wrote Rapping article probably had some reasons to treat Rapping as a vocal technique used in various genres, not exclusively rap music. I disagree with this, but they probably had their reasons... We should let them speak. Netrat_msk (talk) 00:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Ironically, I believe "Rapping" is the older article of the two, but I also would like to hear some other POVs for clarity. -RoBoTam^ice 01:15, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question of hip-hop/rap merger

I'm attempting to organise and unify the sporadic sections here regarding the difference between "rap" and "hip-hop", as there are a few which cover the same issue, and I don't think the issue has been solved. So, the individual topics have been collected under this heading. Headbeater (talk) 12:48, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RE: this article is dumb

this article is dumb because there are stil hip hop and hip hop culture pages wasting peoples efforts. someone tell me to merge these article and i willCosprings 02:21, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Hip hop music is just one aspect of hip hop culture. These should remain separate. bikeable (talk) 02:22, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. any one that suggests hip hop is about the music is severly lacking in understanding of the meaning and history of "hip hop". CheShA. 09:02, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

If the articles are to be merged, the title should be Hip Hop Culture, or simply Hip Hop, not Hip Hop Music. Music is a subset of culture, not vice-versa. Without commenting on whether such a merge should happen, I say the standard should be length vs. duplication. If the combined article would be too long or disjointed, the articles should stay seperate and be fixed up. If seperate articles would include too much duplicated material, the articles should be combined and fixed up. But they should not be combined under Music. A combined article's title should be broad enough to span all the topics. --Loqi T. 03:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you're totally off base. Hip Hop Culture should be a basic, fairly short article with short sections on Rap Music and all the other areas of hip-hop. In each section should go a link that says, for example, For Main Article, see: Rap Music, or For Main Article, see: Hip Hop Fashion, and so on... This way there will be specific articles for Hip Hop Fashion, Rap Music, Graffiti, etc. But Hip Hop needs to be separated into more detailed sections or it will be unwieldy.

Totally agree. Netrat_msk (talk) 10:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

And, further, the "everyone's attention is divided" excuse isn't very compelling. I'd jump in and fix things myself if I wasn't already focused on another article. Maybe I'll come here next. ask123

Hip hop is the full culture, rap music is the music. Rap music should be the article's title. GBrady (talk) 17:23, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] "Hip Hop" vs. "Rap" -- They are not synonyms!

What's up with the title of this article? It's been said before, but I'll say it again: rap is a type of music whereas hip hop is a sub-culture that encompasses rap music, break dancing, graffiti art, DJing, fashion and more. The phrase "hip hop music" is a bit of a misnomer. Maybe usage is changing the definition of "hip hop," but the aforesaid taxonomy has been around since the 80s and is only confused by the mis-informed. I'm sure this isn't new to a lot of you. KRS-One helped propogate this taxonomy before music scholars were even thinking of how to categorize rap within the larger category of "popular music."

I read the explanation for the title of this article in the article lede section, but is that original research? "Rap music" has always encompassed actual rapping along side "DJing." And, of course, both the act of rapping or the act of DJing may be performed alone. It is correct, as noted in the article, that "rapping" is a component of the music, but it is "rap music" that is the combination of rapping and DJing. "Hip hop," on the other hand, is the wider category (encompassing rapping and DJing), but also fashion, art and more. This was the taxonomy that I have known listening to rap music for the past 30-odd years and was instilled in me by friends in the music business and music academia. Maybe this has been discussed and settled already. If so, what's the deal here? Is there a title problem? ...Many thanks! ask123 21:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like there to be a separation between hip-hop and rap, because there is a huge noticeable difference. Hip-hop is more expressive and poetic, and it has a meaning to it. Rap on the other hand, is just pointless rhymes; words without meaning placed over a beat. Thanks 70.21.210.76 01:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

This is just your opinion, and probably original research. Moreover, terms like "expressive", "poetic" or "pointless" are extremely non-NPOV. Netrat_msk (talk) 10:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Those may be your personal definitions of rap and hip-hop, but I don't think they go beyond that. For a long time in the hip-hop community, rap has meant the "rap music," and hip-hop has meant the wider culture that includes rap music, breakdancing, grafitti and turntablism. It is a taxonomical difference and has nothing to do with being poetic or expressive. "Poetic" and "expressive" are subjective words anyway -- one person's poetry is another's cacophony and vice-versa. Cheers, ask123 13:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Hip hop is a style of music in addition to a culture. Rapping, on the other hand, is a vocal style. There is no such genre as "rap music," just as there is no such genre as "sing music." Rapping can be accompanied by any style of music. One can rap to jazz, to rock, to metal, to classical music, whatever. 71.101.228.153 (talk) 18:12, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] An Article for Rap Music

Hey, i think that Rap and Hip Hop shouldnt be in the same articles, they are 2 different things thanks

and did anyone suggest they should? tomasz. 14:07, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Rap Music redirects here, I was about to bring up the same concern, seeing as I was trying to see what alternative roots rap may have beyond Bob Dylan's song, Subterranean Homesick Blues. I see only hiphop discussed here. KV(Talk) 15:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I took the action to redirect Rap Music from Hip Hop Music to Rapping. KV(Talk) 15:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a bad redirect. Rap music is synonymous with hip hop music. Rapping is about the vocal element only. 86.44.6.14 (talk) 19:44, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Rap music is NOT synonymous with hip hop music. Rap music is not only "a capella" rapping, even rapping with backing beat is referred to as rap music.

I would agree that rap music is a part of hip hop music which also includes instrumental hip hop, turntablism, electro funk etc., nut this is not universally accepted. Netrat_msk (talk) 10:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

When we speak of "rap music" we generally mean hip-hop music, but there has been, and still is, alot of rap which is not considered hip-hop. Obviously the boundaries are incredibly difficult to define, but acts such as Blondie and hordes of pop groups using raps in their music are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to non-hip-hop rap music. The use of the term MC, and coining of the term emcee, have become popular in hip-hop circles largely because of a confusion in terms. See songs such as "The Rap" by Millie Jackson (clearly NOT hip-hop) to see why a "rap" or the act of "rapping" does not refer purely to its use in hip-hop. Case in point: Mitchel Musso - I came across this page randomly, and have no idea who the guy is. I don't want to seem prejudiced, and I have not listened to his music, but it does seem that when he's labelled as "hip-hop/rap" we really just mean "rap". As in many other pop cases, it's painful to have people thinking that cheesy, factory-made rap is actually hip-hop music...

It is also misleading, when trying to access a page about rap music, to be directed to a page about hip-hop when hip-hop music often contains no rapping whatsoever; purely instrumental hip-hop, and more melodic or spoken word acts such as Saul Williams, are pure hip-hop often without containing any rapping at all.

There should be some serious discussion about this. Headbeater (talk) 01:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question of hip-hop music/culture etc merger

As with the hip-hop/rap topic above, I've collected the various topics on the hip-hop music/culture etc merger here. As noted, there is/has been a section for discussion of this here, but I wanted to clean up this discussion page so that everyone looking to contribute their views (and I don't believe that, if there is still serious discussion of the idea from people who have not yet contributed their views, there should be no flexibility) can do so. Headbeater (talk) 12:48, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge attempt

I just reverted an edit redirecting this article to hip hop and attempting to create a "main" "hip hop" page. This is way too big an organizational change to make unilaterally and without discussion. Get consensus on this page before reorganizing like that. As I have said before, I think hip hop music and hip hop culture deserve separate articles. bikeable (talk) 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is way too big a change to do unilaterally. But, I don't think there should be one "hip hop" page. Like editors do for media, there should be a relatively short main hip hop page with links in each sub-section to a more detailed page. So, for example, on the main hip hop page, there would be a link in the Rap Music section to a "main rap music" section. Same for all other major aspects of hip hop. Hip Hop is just too unwieldy for one article. ask123 16:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merged

Appropriate portions of Hip Hop now merged to Hip Hop Music-Robotam 15:19, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I still think this is totally stupid-just make ONE page called hip hop, and include everything in the culture and music pages. Why complicate things so information is redundant? Cosprings 17:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It's silly to have what, 3 or 4 pages about one thing? Zazaban 17:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Didn't we just spend a week talking about this? If you guys want to discuss it again, we can reopen that conversation, but otherwise, could we move on, please? bikeable (talk) 18:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I respect anyone's personal opinion regarding redundancy. HOWEVER--the pages were seperated in a way that clearly showed that the material was not, in fact redundant. Hip Hop is not the only subject on Wikipedia that has to be broken up to correctly discuss. After the consensus and changes, the edits done here by the complaining editor have resulted in the above claims of "redundancy."
No one person owns an article, Wikipedia operates by consensus. All of the above arguments were presented and voted upon, with the vote publicized and left open for a considerable time. The above opinions were rejected by a clear majority. The vote itself brought even more comments arguing that the edits to Hip hop music that replaced the formerly Featured Article page were improper. The cutting and pasting of material into hip hop music (much of it violating NPOV) led to the article being demoted from FA status. The only thing left to do is to respectfully request that people stop reverting the articles simply to prove a point. I will gladly discuss any more personalized issues on individual talk pages. Let's get these articles to FA status!-Robotam 18:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I myself haven't reverted anything. Zazaban 19:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I hope I didn't imply that you did--I look forward to working with you (and anyone else) on the articles!-Robotam 19:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, thought that was directed at me. No worries. :) Zazaban 19:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why "Hip hop music" and not just "Hip hop"?

There's no other meaning for "Hip hop" so why the long title? — ciphergoth 16:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

We just had an extremely long discussion about exactly this over at Talk:Hip_hop#Request_for_Comment:_Merger_of_Hip_Hop_Articles. The short answer seems to be that Hip hop is a culture, Hip hop music one of the elements of that culture, and Rapping a particular style of music which constitutes a great deal of hip hop music. The terms are certainly a little slippery, but that seems to be what we've settled on. Note also the discussion immediately above this one -- certainly "hip hop music" can't be simultaneously equivalent to "hip hop culture" and to "rap", so we've got separate articles on each. bikeable (talk) 17:00, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

hmmm... actually, Hip hop is a sort of disambiguation article, and hip hop culture is separate. yeah, it's a little confusing. bikeable (talk) 17:06, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing "slippery" about these terms; they're only confusing to someone unfamiliar with the subject matter at hand. In proper usage, "hip-hop" refers first and foremost to a subculture, although the music which grew out of that subculture is also regularly referred to as just "hip-hop". Therefore, hip-hop is a disambiguation article, while there are separate articles for hip hop culture and hip hop music (originally, hip hop culture was at hip hop, but that seems to have changed at some point, probably due to confused people looking for this article). Rapping is NOT an article on music, and "rapping" does not define a type of music; the article on rapping is on a vocal technique, similar to the article on singing. "Rap music" is a synonym for "hip hop music"; I believe the "hip hop music" term was chosen over "rap music" because the rappers, producers, DJs, etc. tend to prefer the former term to the latter. However, many draw arbitrary distinctions between the usage of the two terms (in general, "rap music" is used to define the more commercial, mainstream material, and "hip hop music" the more underground material more in line with the culture). Such distinctions are, however, indeed arbitrary and the result of unverifiable opinion instead of factual distinctiveness (that is, there is no agreed point where "rap music" ends and "hip-hop music" begins. One person will say Kanye West, another will say Nas, some will hold out for OutKast or Common). --FuriousFreddy 01:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Hip-Hop is a music genre, and yes, also a cultural movement, but there's also an article called "Hip hop culture". There should be some disabiguation sign on top of the page or somethinglike that, which leads to both the "culture"-page and the "fashion"-page, for example. --X LadySweetness x 21:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

there once was a boy by the name of jack ass —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.63.249.31 (talk) 16:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

IP 207.63.249.31, You're comments will be signed by a bot, even if you leave them unsigned when you post them.If you continue to attack other editors, you will be blocked from editing on Wikipedia. ask123 19:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Bikeable, thanks for answering ciphergoth's question. Yes, you are right as to why there are separate articles for the sub-sections of the larger category of "Hip-Hop culture." However, I am clueless as to why this article is called "Hip-Hop Music" and not "Rap Music." I tried to pose this question in my above post but haven't received an answer yet. The taxonomical sub-categories within "Hip-Hop culture" (the parent category) are "rap music," "grafitti," "breakdancing," "turntablism," etc. So this article should actually be titled "Rap Music." "Hip-hop music" is a misnomer used primarily by those uninformed of the actual taxonomy. Perhaps there's an explanation for this, but I haven't heard one yet... (By the way, I saw the article rapping, but it still doesn't explain the title here. Rapping is a characteristic of the vast majority of rap music -- the only exceptions I can think of are interludes on albums. The point is that words/phrases "rapping" and "rap music" have different definitions.) Do you have any insight here into the choice of title for this article? Thanks. Cheers, ask123 19:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

See above. Also, the four elements of hip hop are breakdancing, DJing, graffiti, and MCing (that's rapping, not rap music. The technique, not the musical genre). --FuriousFreddy 01:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Traditionally, Hip-hop only referred to the culture; "Rap" or "rap music," on the other hand, denoted the musical element of hip-hop culture. Perhaps "Hip-hop music" has become a synonym for "rap music" over the years, but it is, in my opinion, an unnecessary synonym since it merely replaces the terminology that had been used since the inception of hip-hop culture itself. Further, the synonym, "hip-hop" (or "hip-hop music") was created out of ignorance of the actual taxonomy and terminology of the culture, mostly by fans of the music, not by the rappers, producers, etc. themselves. In other words, this article should be called "Rap Music," not "Hip-hop music." ask123 20:51, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for merger

Okay, hip hop music is part of hip hop culture, correct? I propose these two pages are merged and the completely useless Hip hop page be renamed Hip hop (word), as with Jazz (word). This is semantics, yes, but less pages means more edits and better articles. The way it is now, project hip hop will is going no where.Cosprings (talk) 17:36, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no point to all this semantics arguing-that can be a part of an article, not a reason to needlessly split up articles and consequently lowering the quality of each of them. Hip hop, hip hop culture, hip hop music are all talking about the same singular subject, which is the culture and music which we all listen and appreciate. I propose those three articles be merged, because they are all describing the same thing, which is a subculture. I cannot say what that article would be called, but perhaps the title of one of the three fits best. If this has already been proposed, then I favor it.Cosprings (talk) 02:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History

The history section is neither coherant nor chronological. It jumps directly from the 1970's to references to 2000. Cadentsoul 00:12, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added Cite Tag to Islam section

shit i fucked my mother u should look it up on youtube I added a request for citations to the section identifying a number of rappers as Muslim in a list without any further supprt - uncited material like this could be contentious and I'm not sure it fits WP:BIO. If no cites are added I will remove these refs in a few days. CredoFromStart ^talk 13:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Which persons are you asking for a cite for? Arabic Pilot 17:37, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] hip hop post-modernism?

the current "summary" section at the end of the article asserts that hip hop is the only thoroughly post-modern genre. this is an interesting argument, one i've actually heard before, but it seriously needs citations as it currently lacks any. Anarchocelt 15:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] this article is way incomplete

no mention of cool herc, grandmaster flash in the history. television gives way too much credit to BET and doesn't mention 'Yo MTV Raps' with Fab 5 Freddy and later Dr. Dre and Ed Lover. Also The Lockers appeared on Saturday Night Live in 1975. They were arguably a hip hop dance group.Get it together people. this page makes Wikipedia look real bad. (Denverjsmith 00:30, 30 June 2007 (UTC)denverjsmith)

Yea, it's insane that there's no mention of Fab 5 Freddy and Yo MTV Raps. That was HUGE in popularizing rap to the wider community! I mean it was friggin MTV playing rap every night! They've finally got mention of Grandmaster Flash & Melle Mel and DJ Kool Herc. They got Kurtis Blow, but he was in an ad campaign and came later. How can there be no Yo MTV Raps though. Wow, talk about ignorance about the more contemporary spread of rap! The late 80s and early 90s was when rap truly spread to the masses. The 90s section currently in the article is only for mid-late 90s and gangsta rap -- pretty pathetic. Where's Pete Rock and CL Smooth, Brand Nubian and all of the other great early 90s rappers that got "the messege" out? The early 90s coverage here is just non-existent! Pretty paltry article if you ask me. I'm amazed it was actually permitted to be a Featured Article.ask123 16:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The decline of Rap Sales?

I think this article should incorporate how the sales of Rap CDs are declining. heres an interesting article..

http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2007-06-14-rap-decline_N.htm 69.138.209.159 23:50, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

CD sales in general are declining(including rock, country, etc.), so this is really irrelevant.

Rap CD sales in proportion to the sales of other genres is declining. Zazaban (talk) 02:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Feminism Quote

"The small presence of women in hip-hop can be blamed on many things, including women's inability to break into in an all-male environment to learn electronic machinery and MCing. " I just found this really offensive, (I'm a guy) can understand if it isn't meant to be, but... some stuff just needs to be reworded..—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 125.238.7.124 (talk • contribs) 21:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC).

I agree so I've removed it. It's unsourced and doesn't represent a neutral viewpoint. If anyone wants to re-instate that section it's still in the history, but the onus is on whoever adds it to source it: who thinks this? where did they say it?, otherwise it will be removed again. Regards. Escaper2007 10:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I put the feminism section back in and fixed it up a little and add a sources...leave it so people can improve it!Cosprings 17:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry Cosprings, you have NOT cited it, and it's still not neutral: Hip-hop music is overwhelmingly dominated by male artists and therefore represents a masculine point of view. Says who?. This is a long article and it's attempting to use the Harvard referencing system in places. This section especially needs referencing. Some of us want Wikpedia to aspire to the highest standards, and these conventions are Wiki-policy. See: [1] this makes the policy more than clear. Regards. Escaper2007 11:12, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you listen to hip hop? Then you, like everyone else, knows, observes that most, many, a disproportionate number of rappers are male. How can this need a source?

Strangely enough I do - not that I need to justify that here. Do you read Wikipedia policies? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia it has certain conventions for the quality, standard and reliability of articles. Here's an extract from the policy on original research: [2] or see WP:NOR Wikipedia is not the place for original research. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: the only way to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say. So by all means include a section on feminism (or I think what was intended was a section on sexism) BUT provide sources. If it's YOUR opinion, or what people "observe", then that's not good enough. Regards Escaper2007 10:47, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course, hip hop has many more males than females, but it has nothing to do with women's ability to use electronic equipment! That was the insulting part. Of course there's no source for such a ludicrous comment! This is a neutrality issue, not a sourcing issue! My gosh, people, stay on point! ask123 16:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clean up

I've added a clean-up template to this article. It's not intended to undermine the work of any particular editor, but to attract more editors to help with citing sources and and general copy-editing issues. an article this length needs many more than six sources, the article currently raises more questions than it answers. Escaper2007 10:58, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hyper-Masculinity

"Because hip hop music almost always puts an emphasis on hyper-masculinity". Bullsh*t! De La Soul, A Tribe Called Quest, and even pop acts like Fresh Prince would probably not be described as 'Hyper-Masculine'. The anti-gay bit should be put in the ol' Gangsta Rap Section, in my opinion.

Well, yes, there are rap acts that aren't as hyper masculine as most, but, by and large, there is a strong point of masculinity in rap music. That's why the first few female rappers were so masculine (see MC Lyte; Da Brat; Queen Latifah; and Boss, one of the great female rap groups of all time in my opinion). And, regarding anti-gay stuff, yes, most gangsta rap heavily used anti-gay ideas, but the ideas were in rap music before gangsta rap was even called gangsta rap. It's just like misogeny; gangsta rap was, at many times, heavily misogynist, but there were misogynistic themes in rap way before gangsta rap hit the scene. (Violence too, of course.) ask123 16:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know hip-hop even evolved out of the double dutch scene, thats what we told each other in the 80´s. The (mainly) girls started to sing what the Rappers spoke, and they jumped: hip-hop hip-hop hip-hop... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.23.27 (talk) 21:36, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Where did you come up with that garbage? wiki_is_unique (talk) 13:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccuracies, POV and OR.

• "the openly gay hip hop and rap artist Caushun" Caushun was exposed as a prank gone arwy [3]

• There are other inarrcuracies, will post them when I find them. Zazaban 02:56, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

_______________________________

• "Because hip hop music almost always puts an emphasis on hyper-masculinity, even those lyrics not explicitly hateful toward gays have been said to reflect a homophobic mindset. As in any profession and especially the performing arts, it is often suspected that there are a great number of gay or lesbian hip hop musicians who do not come out of the closet, for fear of the impediment to or decline of their career."

• I don't know where to begin here. Firstly, there is not a single source here, making it completely OR.

• The claim that "hip hip ALMOST ALWAYS puts an emphasis on hyper-masculinity" thus making basically every song "said" to "reflect a homophobic mindset" is inherently POV. Why not condemn every song by Elvis? I seriously doubt he had a pro-gay mindset.
• " it is often suspected that there are a great number of gay or lesbian hip hop musicians who do not come out of the closet" A lot of things are often suspected but that doesn't make them so. Zazaban 03:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hindu music??

Panjabi MC is Sikh, NOT Hindu. Yeah, he's Indian, but that doesn't mean he's automatically Hindu. I don't think his music qualifies as religious. I don't speak Punjabi, so I don't understand everything he says. There might need to be a section distinguishing religion from cultural identity. Mochamalu 04:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Nomination

OK, I nominated for GA status; hopefully we can get some input on elevating this article back to GA and FA status. The article as is has incorporated text from when article WAS was originally FA status.-RoBoTam^ice 20:45, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

• I've quick failed this article because it lacks citations; these are expected for most good articles these days, particularly long ones. See here for how to cite statements in the article. Teemu08 20:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

How come ther's no criticism on the triviality of hip-hop, atleast for this generation. I can't turn on mtv and watch three video's in a row without seeing a million slow motion scenes mixed with , hearing a chorus effect in most all of the vocals, and hearing egotistic rhymes laced superficial materialism or misogyny or overall degradig talk(with the imagery to back it up)- these are only a few of banal traits that permeate the genre. The lingo used in this culture is amorphic and is changing all the time, as for the music itself.

I remember hearing a famous producer on the red arpet talk about how the producers have been "running the show" instead of the rappers, suggesting that the music is being controlled.

Mainstream rap in general seems to be a genre that degrades values from language to morals to appearance- Can we find a way to put this on there?

No, because most of it is unsourcable POV. Also, mainstream Hip Hop is not the same as Hip Hop in general. Zazaban 02:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

These are all good points. I agree with you. You have a similar opinion to me. But, for that reason alone, we cannot alter the article. Obviously, that would be original research. It certainly isn't how a progressive encyclopedia would go about editing this article. But that doesn't mean the aritcle can't be changed. Find sources that express this in as more than a personal gesture. If you cite verifiable and reliable sources, then you have a case for a "criticism" section. Keep in mind that it's not against WikiPolicy to express someone's opinion, as long as it follows the NPOV Subsection on "characterizing opinions of people's work". "Aesthetic opinions" are not acceptable, unless they are about "how some artist or some work has been received by the general public or by prominent experts. Providing an overview of the common interpretations of a creative work, preferably with citations or references to notable individuals holding that interpretation, is appropriate." I'd join you in your quest, but I'm tied up on another article. It probaly isn't even that hard to find. It just has to be reliable per policy and in a reasonably notable enough publication that (e.g. not your best friend's journal or a random website). Cheers, ask123 04:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I think we should make a part called "Critisicism of HipHop".

But a "criticism" section would merely voice opinions. A criticism section cannot be added (regarding works of art) unless they cite a prominent voice in the field. So you would need to find a prominent voice in the area of rap music, pop music, etc. that criticizes the genre (per NPOV>Characterizing Opinions of People's Work). ask123 20:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Why is it that on articles having to do with hip hop or rap, there are people ready and willing who have NO KNOWLEDGE on the subject asking to place in sections with obvioulsy anti hip-hop POV? Isn't this supposed to be NPOV? wiki_is_unique (talk) 13:48, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is this real?

"inner-city blacks were similarly rejecting disco and disco-fied rock, soul and funk (which was virtually everything on the radio)" I doubt the truth in that statement, I"m sure it was simler to how Hiphop is today (in that hiphop is almost all that's on the radio and will be rejected in the same way other genres where) but there was a lot of good ol' rock music going on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SilverPwnzor (talk • contribs) 17:21, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not hard to believe if you were alive at the time. The radio was dominated by disco and disco-like genres of music. There was a strong backlash to disco at the time, not just via the emergence of rap. ask123 20:48, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citing sources

If you are going to add to this article, please add a source and cite a reference for claims made. For example who says: the Philippines is known for having one of the first Hip Hop Scenes in all of Asia and the Pacific Region?Escaper27 11:28, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hip Hop Genres

Lyrical Hip Hop and Hip Hop Dance Music

I believe we , as Hip Hop intellectuals, should start differentiating between Hip Hop music that focuses on what the MC is saying or more lyrical hip hop and that which is made more specifically for dancing. We dont do that in Hip Hop. We just battle over "real" and what not. Let's maybe start calling Nas' music 'lyrical Hip Hop' and music like Crunk and Bounce and other dance music 'Hip Hop dance. Kinda like Electronica vs. Electronic dance music. The latter being the more dance driven style.--J. Daily 05:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

There are plenty of sub-genres of rap. And, like other genres of music, there are music-heavy types, lyric-heavy types, pop types, etc. ask123 20:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

But there's a bigger difference than we give both styles credit for. Even the different sounds of Hip Hop club music have more in common than the lyricists emphasizing music. TI and Jay-Z is one example of artists that are both lyrically blessed and flo over club beats regularly. But Common and Ying Yang Twins are different for instance. 'Dirty South' or 'Alternative' does not qualify all club nor lyrical music respectively. There are styles of club music outside of the South that are not called Dirty South. And styles of lyricism that are not considered Alternitive. --J. Daily 07:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Politicization and The Clash

this was left by Pjoef as a hidden text in the article. i thought it'd be better if people could discuss it here instead.

??? The Clash released The Magnificent Seven, Lightning Strikes (Not Once But Twice) and This Is Radio Clash in 1980... ...And, Public Enemy (see the lines below), in particular Chuck D, were influenced by The Clash. IMHO, they must be mentioned here Pjoef 12:41, 2 December 2007 (UTC)) ???

cheers, tomasz. 15:09, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ridiculous overstatements

Numerous claims throughout the decade sections of the article try to claim that hip-hop has completely taken over pop music. I removed one that said "nearly all American pop songs had a major hip-hop component" by the end of the 90s. Similar assertions in the 80s and 2000s decades try to overinflate hip-hop's influence -- it seems to me that if a song happens to have a loud drum or an angry singer then some people will claim it as a hip-hop song. It's absurd! There are millions of Americans and billions of Earthlings who have never enjoyed a hip-hop song and never will. Get real! Rpresser (talk) 19:18, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nu metal?

Should nu metal be included in the fusion genres? Nu metal does have hip hop elements —Preceding unsigned comment added by Belchey (talk • contribs) 03:47, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess mentioning Rapcore is enough. Netrat_msk (talk) 09:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

rapcore and nu metal are COMPLETELY different. nu metal is a combination of metal with funk and hip hop styles, so obviously hip hop is an origin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.163.2.69 (talk) 04:40, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

There is a whole special relationship between heavy metal and hip-hop that has been overlooked but never mentioned.Xx1994xx (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:09, 21 August 2009 (UTC).

[edit] who is the original author of this article??

???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 36c ob4cl w (talk • contribs) 21:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

• there's no one "original author" as such, in line with WP's collaborative approach, but the article at this namespace was started by TUF-KAT @ 13:15, April 16, 2003, mostly transferred from a different namespace ("hip hop"). At that point it looked like this. tomasz. 22:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kanye West?

I'm not trying to be a huge kanye fan that needs the whole page to be about him but come on you can't put something about 50 cent bringing back gangsta hip hop and not put something about kanye west. I he bassically shaped a genre and put a rise to commercial and critically succesful hip hop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.213.233.162 (talk) 03:01, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course, of course...he's the voice of our generation, right? /sarcasm Crmadsen (talk) 23:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] 2000s

This section REALLY needs cleaning up. "In the next several years, a wave of increasingly pop-oriented crossover acts such as Ja Rule dominated American popular music. It was not until the sudden breakthrough success of the hard-edged 50 Cent that hardcore hip hop returned to the pop charts." Who says?? Agree or disagree that 50 is more or less "hardcore" than anyone else; it is purely subjective. And it does seem clear that hip-hop has become more "pop-oriented" this decade, but the "breakthrough" of 50 Cent doesn't make it any less so. The English in this whole section is also quite poor, and, as with the rest of the article, somewhat lacking in cohesiveness and thoroughness. I will find time to clean it up but if anyone has good ideas in the meantime, please... Headbeater (talk) 01:21, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I've also just noticed the extreme one-sidedness in this section: "Some rappers openly or comically flirt with nazism, Bushido (born Anis Mohamed Youssef Ferchichi) raps "Salutiert, steht stramm, Ich bin der Leader wie A" (Salute, stand to attention, I am the leader like 'A') and Fler had a hit with the record Neue Deutsche Welle (New German Wave) complete with the title written in Third Reich style gothic print and advertised with an Adolf Hitler quote." This is not the sum total of hip-hop in Germany, and does not deserve a third of the space devoted to hip-hop music this century. I don't believe that this even need be mentioned at all. Clean Up!! Headbeater (talk) 12:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, the Nazi rap claims are ridiculously overexaggerated, and the article cited as a source is way off as it lists the only well-known cases of such Nazi tendencies in German hip hop and makes it look as though they were just some examples of a well-established trend, which they are not.

Also, the whole Hamburg hip hop era of the late 90s and roughly the first third/half of this decade, which was not about gangsta rap at all, is completely left out of the article. Artists as influential and successful as Dynamite Deluxe, Jan Delay etc. deserve a mention for their shaping of German hip hop. Yet, the article mentions Fler, who has not had any noticable artistic influence on the scene and is only controversial due to his fake Nazi image, which he has laid to rest in recent years anyway. MacSaxon (talk) 20:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

One more thing: the link to "New school hip hop" (

Main article: New school hip hop

) takes us to a page about the music from the mid-'80s. "2000s" suggests "new school" will be about music THIS century. Is there no separate page for this? Headbeater (talk) 22:48, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

See the talk page of the new school hip hop article. 86.44.30.169 (talk) 12:17, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

"The United States also saw the rise of alternative hip hop in the form of moderately popular performers like The Roots, Dilated Peoples and Mos Def, who achieved unheard-of success for their field." I think this should be removed or seriously revised. What is alternative hip hop? Is that defined? Because those artists are all hip hop. To me this part suggests that Eminem and Nelly are somehow how more hip hop or at least "regular" hip hop and that groups like The Roots or Dilated Peoples are somehow alternative. Do the author mean underground? Because that's what Eminem was too. In fact, if memory serves me, Eminem was on the Wake Up Show with Dilated Peoples when he was discovered by Dr Dre. Also The Roots pre date both Eminem and Nelly, so how do they get labelled as alternative and Nelly classified under this article as straight up hip hop??KDilla (talk) 12:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

So really "Eminem shows the rise of alternative hip hop and reached unheard of success" would be more appropriate, although still very inappropriate. Any thoughts on this and the above comments? I don't want to just go changing things.KDilla (talk) 13:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I think what that sentence is trying to say is that those artists represent Hip-Hop that is not "catered for massive radio play", not aligned with the style of most "hot singles" that get massive rotation at a radio station (Juvenile, Back That Ass Up, etc.), yet they still gained break-out popularity. However there are problems with that indeed because you can say the same about the success of the Wu-Tang Clan and many other artists. A is putting the smack down (talk) 13:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

This article tries to define Alternative Hip hop:Alternative Hip hop. A is putting the smack down (talk) 13:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok well I've never heard of that term really used but maybe if we at least link to it. Still not a fan of that term though.KDilla (talk) 17:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

It's basically an artificial genre popularized by Allmusic and other sources. I think most hip hop-o-logists would agree that the genre is made up and arbitrary. A is putting the smack down (talk) 18:10, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History : H.I.P. H.O.P. french TV show, the very first entirely hip-hop TV show in the world

First, please excuse my bad english, i'm french !

I prefer not to try to add some informations now, because of it.

So, it's up to you to draw your own conclusions here and publish these informations :

The subject : in 1984, was created in France the first entirely hip hop TV show in the world (so before american hip hop TV shows), named H.I.P. H.O.P., imagined and presented by Sidney. He did not speak but do rap to present all the show (possible to see on share video web site Dailymotion).

So, i think it's impossible to avoid speaking about this TV show in a hip hop history article. How not to mention this world history fact ?

In added, Sidney was the first black announcer in the french TV history.

(What a very hip-hop symbol ! It was one of the first time in the world, maybe the first, that hip-hop made the proof it could change society. But this may be an opinion...)

In added, by the fact with the TV show, Sidney is the first french famous rap singer, not Dee Nasty, as said on some of english wikipedia articles.

Dee Nasty made the first french rap album, in the end of 1984, which is the second stage of hip-hop french history, but nobody heard about it at this moment, it takes for him many years before becoming more famous. Sidney made before him the first french rap single (in particular, the TV show song), and immediatly famous by the TV show.

It's important to say that all officials french medias say exactly the same thing, without any contradictions.

Here are links, to help to think about it :

• About H.I.P. H.O.P. and Sidney on Universal Music France official web site
• About H.I.P. H.O.P. and Sidney on MCM TV official web site
• About H.I.P. H.O.P. and Sidney on a french hip-hop history resume, from "Festival l'Original 84-04"

Thanks

N.B. : the show had guests such as Sugarhill Gang, Kurtis Blow, Afrika Bambaataa, Herbie Hancock, The Breaks, The Tribe, The Art Of Noise, The Rock Steady Crew, Futura 2000, and many more. Www.why (talk) 10:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reggae conections

Since it was just inserted into article by itself, I'm moving this link to the talk page.

http://www.jamaicans.com/music/articles_reggae/when-did-reggae-become-ra.shtml
-RoBoTam^ice 15:44, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Very interesting article. However, title notwithstanding, the article (wisely) does not argue that Reggae=Rap Music, or that Reggae=Hip Hop; it argues that Jamaican music and culture is a major (and early) influence on hip hop. That is correct, and the hip hop articles accurately reflect that. However, it would be misleading to use that to argue that hip hop music (even as practiced by Herc) was "the same as" dub or ska, or that the only major influence on hip hop music and culture was Jamaican music. I would note that, contrary to the cited article's premise, Hip Hop historians have acknowledged the influence of JA on Hip Hop culture from the beginning. -RoBoTam^ice 14:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect

I have redirected rap to hip hop music instead of rapping, as I belive we can all agree people who are searching for rap are searching for the music genre, and not rapping. However, there is a surprising resistabce to this, so I wish to disscus this with other editor's.Johan Rachmaninov (talk) 17:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

"rapping" (the technique) is more specific than "hip hop music". "hip hop music" also covers turntablism, social commentary, and dozens of other nuances. i believe its is therefore more apt for the redirect from "rap" to "rapping" to stay where it is. thanks, tomasz. 17:56, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

However a majority of people searching for rap are probaly searching for the music. This is a fact. Rapping may be more general but this is not the point.Johan Rachmaninov (talk) 18:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

actually, i think that's your opinion, rather than "a fact". tomasz. 18:05, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Johan, thank you for your interest. As mentioned, rap is one facet of hip hop music. However, even assuming that a majority of people searching for "rap" are searching for "hip hop" music generally (instead of rap specifically), I would offer that directing to rapping is an opportunity to educate, rather than confuse (or even worse, allow someone to remain unknowing). After all, this is an encyclopedia. -RoBoTam^ice 18:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Just how would redirecting rap to hip hop music confuse people? While this arcicle does cover other subjects such as turntablism and etc., these things are needed to understand the music as a whole. While some of these examples do not involve rapping, they are still intertwined with the termJohan Rachmaninov (talk) 02:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, assuming that all you say is true, isn't that the purpose of tools such as wikilinks? But let's follow your premise to its logical conclusion. Should wiki articles on the Brooklyn Bridge or London Bridge simply redirect to suspension bridges? Should I redirect suspension bridges to bridges since I think most people don't know the different types of bridges? Probably not. :) -RoBoTam^ice 15:20, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Interesting quote: "people searching for rap are probaly searching for the music. This is a fact." How can 'probably' be 'a fact'? It's an assumption, at best. I think redirecting 'rap' to 'hiphop' is a bad idea. Please revert.  Channel ®   21:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Instead of fighting, ask: What does Wikipedia policy say? Hyacinth (talk) 00:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

(adding link to Wikipolicy) WP:REDIRECT --RoBoTam^ice 15:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

Hi, I looked at the references used in this article. I find The Resource - THE NEXT to be a violation of WP:EL "objectionable amounts of advertising". For having more adblocks than content, and a popup. Another source: [http://www.zulunation.com/hip_hop_history2.htm (cached)] relies on google cache, because the page was deleted. This will be an issue because Google does not endlessly cache deleted websites. I also have no idea what: Toop:2000, 94, Toop, 2000 and Toop:2000, 96 are? Most other references look good. Species8473 (talk) 09:10, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scandinavian?

Did Danish performers get particulary known outside Denmark? I'm a Norwegian hip hop listener, and I honestly can't name one Danish hip hop artist. Can name plenty of Swedish though. Some Danish who envyed Sweden a bit? Remove it? Espenhs (talk) 10:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rap rock/Rapcore/Rap Metal

There's a comment by User:IL7Soulhunter in the fusiongenres sections: please do not add rap rock, as it derived from EastCoast hip hop. And nu metal dreives from that. That comment is both OR and non-sense. There's absolutely no reason to believe that rapcore derives specially from East Coast rap, and not rap music in general. Second, East Coast is the birthplace of hip hop, so any other subgenre or fusion genre is derived from East Coast hip hop. Is it a good reason for not listing them? Netrat (talk) 12:27, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Origins of the term Hiphop.

I just wondered if a little sentence about the naming genres of dances would be out of place in the "origin" section. The swing dancing names like the "Lindy hop" etc... seem to point in the direction of the convention that was applied to achieve the term "hip-hop". It also raises questions about the reasons for coining the term... ie: that hip-hop might have been separated from rap due more to a dancing style that was associated with a sub-genre of rap music, and that once that music and dance style became more popular (and attained the associated fashion and cultural attributes), that "hip-hop" became the more popular and ended up absorbing rap music (hip-hop's precursor).121.44.196.193 (talk) 13:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Okay, really.

A vandalism war seems to have broken out between rap and rock, with anon IPs adding attacks like "Rock and roll is really gay and who gives a shit about it rap is the shit bitch" to both this article and rock and roll. Knowing how things like this can escalate very fast on the internet, let's keep an eye out. Zazaban (talk) 02:30, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] incomplete

There are allot of props not given to influencial hip-hop artists and rappers in this article. The lack of mention of several mainstream hip-hop acts who changed and/or improved this genre makes this article incomplete. Additionally, it has portions that are biased. 69.129.170.102 (talk) 14:47, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rapping vs Rap music vs Hip hop vs Hip hop music

Rapping is what rappers do in hip hop music. "Rap music" is not something separate from hip hop. "Rap music" is music with rapping, which is what hip hop is. Everyone should be clear about this. Rap music is sometime believed to be a more pop style, bad style, version of "true" hip hop, but this is not true, only a confounding of the terms by people who don't know .

THEREFORE, there should only be a Rapping article, and a hip hop article, not a rap music article and a hip hop music article, just the first two. Cosprings (talk) 16:51, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] You need to make a change.

"Hip hop" should be typed "Hip Hop" or "Hip-Hop," not "hip hop" for it looks more professional. (This is how Yahoo, MTV, VH1, and BET all spell theirs and this is how I spell mine.)

Hightek669 (talk) 08:17, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Hip hop is "hip hop". This is how Oxford spells theirs, and this is how I spell mine. The day I take grammar lessons from BET, there will be a self-inflicted bullet-wound in my skull. Crmadsen (talk) 23:33, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Namie Amuro & Hip-Pop

"Hip-Pop" redirects to this page; there should be some mention of this "genre" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.224.78 (talk) 23:07, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.171.60.119 (talk) 20:03, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] 2000s

This section is lousy. It doesn't go into very much detail. It just talks about various international styles of hip hop, then all of a sudden it is in decline, with the last event mentioned being Eminem's debut. Zazaban (talk) 09:55, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Puerto Rican vs "Latino" American

Can someone please watch the user with the IP 87.11.xx.xx, the IP constantly changes the opening from Puerto Rican to "Latin American". The reference specifically reads puerto Rican immigrants had influence on hip hop. It is clearly misleading to suggest all of latin America had influence on USA hip hopSourcechecker419 (talk) 19:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Latin Americans are immigrants since 1940-1960's, in the Bronx there have been many Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Colombians, etc since then. So the merit it's not only for Puerto Ricans. The reference is "LATINOS in Hip Hop to Reggaeton", Reggaeton music born in Panama, it has many latin american influences, but it got officialy famous with puerto ricans "reggaetoneros". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.11.5.188 (talk) 10:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The main source, Jeff Chang's Can't Stop Won't Stop, doesn't just specify Puerto Ricans, so it should be "Latin Americans" in the article. Crateescape101 (talk) 13:07, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Umm..Actually Reggeton music isnt Hip-Hop per say. Hip-Hop is widley known as an indiginous American artform like Jazz, Country music, R&B, etc. To say Mexicans (or any foriegn latin cultures) had any influence on traditional hip-hip is lightweight outrageous. You could arguablably say puerto ricans played apart but even most of them were of African slave descent (indistingishable from blacks). "Latino" probably should just be taken off altogether an put into the "reggeton" section. I also think Sourcechecker has a point. Saying all of Latin America influened hip-hop is like saying because Emeinem was a big star, all of Europe takes credit for hip-hop. There really is no such thing as "latino culture", latin America composes of several unique culture. It article should really focus on the lineage of the people who created hip-hop, not ambigous cultures. I strongly ask everyone to watch this youtube vid for an objective view on the orgins of hip-hop done by 20/20 in 1981. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WonNbeBwXD468.55.205.186 (talk) 04:24, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

The reference is "Latinos in Hip Hop to reggaeton" so you need to admit that there have been some "Latino" as Jamaican influences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.11.32.80 (talk) 14:12, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

---

Reggaeton should not be in this article. Hip Hop is a influence of Reggaeton, and should be linked from the Reggaeton page to here.

This was started by African Americans. The latinos influences came later. This really needs to be edited. This applies to breakdancing as well. Everyone else came later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 19:44, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Two articles

This article and hip hop need to me merged at some point. Most of this article could be incorporated in the history section of the other, maybe leading to a new History of hip hop article. Zazaban (talk) 00:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Casper's Groovy Ghost Show Record

It was released in 1978, but is it hip-hop? Some sources say it was released in 1980. Are they different versions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.172.130.146 (talk) 23:40, 7 November 2009 (UTC)