edit · history · watch · refresh  To-do list for Hinduism: | | - Ongoing: Get better references and citations in all sections where they are lacking.
- Prune to (and keep at!) a size below 65k (WP:SS! avoid Wikipedia:main article fixation + WP:SIZE)
- Aspire to FA quality
- Add criticism and demographic sections
- Attempt to explain Hindu perspective and Hindu worldview as well but not just Hinduism
- Please be careful not to confuse the unique practices of particular Hindu sects or groups with that of all of Hinduism.
- Keep significant aspects of Hinduism significant and insignificant aspects of Hinduism insignificant.
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[edit] Section on Typology - Below is the section added from a reliable source to the article. Discussion is welcomed - this section does not deal with History of Hinduism but rather with types of Hinduism making it clear for anyone as to the structure to the variety. (Oxford Handbook on religion and emotion 2007)
- Typology
There are six major types or traditions in Hinduism and a number of minor forms. Of the major types the oldest is Hindu folk religion, which is represented in the worship of local deities or other sanctified forms. It is normally handed down in oral tradition and there is an emotional element that plays a considerable role it it. Second major part is Vedic Hinduism, which is based or recorded in Hindu scriptures, specifically Vedic texts of which the most important one is Rig Veda. The third type is Vedantic Hinduism and is related to Upanishads. The yogic Hinduism forms the forth type and is often represented, but not limited to the yogic sūtras of Patanjali. The last two traditions are based on tapasya, or austerity as an element of its practice. The firth type of Hindu tradition is dharmic Hinduism, sometimes referred or called as a daily morality, while this type is widespread today, it speaks a little about specific beliefs of people. The six type of Hinduism is refereed as bhakti or devotionalism.[1] [edit] Updated link The link at the bottom needsw updating as follows: (hope i got this template right) {{editsemiprotected}} CHANGE: TO:  Y Done—SpaceFlight89 14:25, 23 September 2009 (UTC) [edit] Admin Intervention Since User:Pectore is not willing to discuss changes here and develop a consensus, I am wondering if it is time to call for admin intervention. Desione (talk) - I have been more than willing to discuss my edits, but I am not willing to repeat myself to an obviously obstinate and ignorant crowd. For example Desione claims that I have not been a) sourcing or b) providing full citations. Interestingly however, if Desione was capable of or cared enough to scroll down the page the sources were expanded in the proper location. Not only those edits, but on the accumulated scale of my edits, unsourced information and assumptions were removed and a plethora of reliable sources were provided to justify whatever assertions I made, or that were presently on the page (See 1, 2, 3 for examples). Pectoretalk 14:49, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
- As for this supposed consensus, Desione was rebuffed at numerous junctures in the past (See Talk:Hinduism/Archive_23#Resolving_Conversion, and Talk:Hinduism/Archive_22#Conversion). In the status quo, Shreevatsa and I both agree on the text, and Desione is the only person advocating change to the unsourced, subjective, and myopic interpretation of conversion, formulated by a number of Indians but with little actual theological, historical, or factual backing.Pectoretalk 14:49, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Suggestion: Lets not personalize the issue, and call each others edits WP:vandalism (they are not!). I haven't compared the two versions that are being promoted in any details, but at first glance, neither seem "completely whacko" and I think we should be able to discuss and arrive at an high-quality version based on the the sources being cited, and possibly further literature review. To help the process, can someone quote the two versions below along with the corresponding references ? Please don't add "support" or "oppose" comments in the discussion section - this is supposed to be a effort at collaboration and not a competition. Abecedare (talk) 16:24, 11 October 2009 (UTC) A very sensible and reasonable suggestion. Let's do what Abecedare has suggested. Thanks.Kanchanamala (talk) 12:20, 13 October 2009 (UTC) [edit] Conversion discussion [edit] Version 1 Concepts of conversion, evangelization, and proselytization are rarely found in the Hindu texts and in practice have never played a significant role in the religion. Early in its history, in the absence of other competing religions, Hindus considered everyone they came across as Hindus and expected everyone they met to be Hindus.[2][3] Hindus today continue to be influenced by historical ideas of acceptability of conversion.[4] Hence, many Hindus continue to believe that Hinduism is an identity that can only be had from birth,[5] while many others continue to believe that anyone who follows Hindu beliefs and practices is a Hindu[6], and many believe in some form of both theories. However, as a reaction to perceived and actual threat of evangelization, prozelyzation, and conversion activities of other major religions many modern Hindus are opposed to the idea of conversion from (any) one religion to (any) other per se.[7] With the rise of Hindu revivalist movements, conversions to Hinduism have risen.[8] Reconversions are well accepted since conversion out of Hinduism is not recognized.[9] There is no formal process for converting to Hinduism, although in many traditions a ritual called dīkshā ("initiation") marks the beginning of spiritual life.[10] A ritual called shuddhi ("purification") sometimes marks the return to spiritual life after reconversion.[11] Most Hindu sects do not seek converts,[12][13][14][15] as they believe that the goals of spiritual life can be attained through any religion, as long as it is practiced sincerely.[12][16] However, some Hindu sects and affiliates such as Arya Samaj, Saiva Siddhanta Church, BAPS, and the International Society for Krishna Consciousness accept those who have a desire to follow Hinduism. [edit] Version 2 Concepts of conversion, evangelization, and proselytization are absent from Hindu texts and in practice have never played a significant role, though acceptance of willing converts is becoming more common. Early in its history, in the absence of other competing religions, Hindus considered everyone they came across as Hindus and expected everyone they met to be Hindus.[17][18] Hindus today continue to be influenced by historical ideas of acceptability of conversion.[19] Hence, many Hindus continue to believe that Hinduism is an identity that can only be had from birth,[20] while many others continue to believe that anyone who follows Hindu beliefs and practices is a Hindu, and many believe in some form of both theories. However, as a reaction to perceived and actual threat of evangelization, prozelyzation, and conversion activities of other major religions most modern Hindus are opposed to the idea of conversion from (any) one religion to (any) other per se.[21] Hindus in Western countries generally accept and welcome willing converts, whereas in India acceptance of willing converts is becoming more common. With the rise of Hindu revivalist movements, reconversions to Hinduism have also risen.[22] Reconversions are well accepted since conversion out of Hinduism is not recognized.[23] Conversion into Hinduism through marriage is well accepted and often expected in order to enable the non-Hindu partner to fully participate in their spiritual, religious, and cultural roles within the larger Hindu family and society. [citation needed] There is no formal process for converting to Hinduism, although in many traditions a ritual called dīkshā ("initiation") marks the beginning of spiritual life.[24] A ritual called shuddhi ("purification") sometimes marks the return to spiritual life after reconversion.[25] Most Hindu sects do not seek converts,[12][13][26][15] as they believe that the goals of spiritual life can be attained through any religion, as long as it is practiced sincerely.[12][27] However, some Hindu sects and affiliates such as Arya Samaj, Saiva Siddhanta Church, BAPS, and the International Society for Krishna Consciousness accept those who have a desire to follow Hinduism. In general, Hindu view of religious freedom is not based on the freedom to proselytize, but the right to retain one’s religion and not be subject to proselyzation. Hindu leaders are advocating for changing the existing formulation of the freedom of religion clause in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights since it favors religions which proselytize.[28] [edit] Version 3 [edit] Conversion A ritual called dīkshā ("initiation") may mark the beginning of Hindu life after conversion; while as, a ritual called shuddhi("purification") may mark the reentry into Hinduism after reconversion. Hindu literature notes that the Rishis were responsible for the spread of Hinduism in ancient times[29]. Since the Hindu scriptures are essentially silent on the issue of religious conversion, the question of whether Hindus should evangelize is open to interpretation. Those who see Hinduism mainly as a philosophy or a way of life generally believe that one can convert to Hinduism by incorporating Hindu beliefs into one's life and considering oneself a Hindu[30]. However, other Hindus are opposed to the idea of conversion, from one religion to another per se[31].The Supreme Court of India has taken the former view, holding that the question of whether a person is a Hindu should be determined by the person's belief system, not by their ethnic or racial heritage.[32] Hindu leaders are advocating for changing the existing formulation of the freedom of religion clause in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights since it favors religions which proselytize. Reconversion among people who were formerly Hindus or whose ancestors were formerly Hindus has picked up pace with the growth of Hindu revivalist movements.[33] National organizations such as Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (India) and Parisada Hindu Dharma (Indonesia) actively facilitate such reconversions. Reconversions, in general, are well accepted within Hindu society since conversion out of Hinduism is not considered valid in the first place. Conversion through marriage is well accepted within Hinduism and often expected in order to enable the non-Hindu partner to fully participate in their spiritual, religious, and cultural roles within the larger Hindu family and society[citation needed]. Evangelization by Hindus, and large scale conversion to Hinduism has occurred throughout the ages as well. In Southeast Asia the merchant, sailor, and priestly class accounted for much of the spread of the religion[34]. Many foreign groups including Gujjars, Ahoms, and Hunas converted to Hinduism after generations of Sanskritization[35]. In the 18th century, Manipur was evanglelized by Hindu priests. In India and Indonesia today many groups still convert to Hinduism on a large basis[36]. [edit] Discussion - There aren't huge differences between the two versions, my reverts have more been about preserving the integrity of the page by reintroducing sources (which Desione consistently removed, even when they were sources added to completely unrelated paragraphs). The utter stupidity becomes more apparent on posts placed on my talk page 1. In these Desione has misrepresented my edits in an insulting and idiotic fashion. Look at the discussions above or the diffs on article page where I have provided numerous reliable sources to back up whatever I say, as opposed to religiocruft.
- Of note is the fact noted in Glaziers The Anthropology of Religious Conversion page 43 in which he notes that fallacious claims of Hindus not engaging in the conversion game are used as a backdoor way to assert the superiority of the religion. That removes us from the land of NPOV.
- The paragraph on "religious freedom" is one absent from V1, because there is no real Hindu view on such a concept. In the view of the Hindu Right, it certainly is untrue (the VHP aggressively evangelizes non-Hindus in parts of India), and therefore should not be taken as gospel truth on Wikipedia. As for the other flaws of V2, they include unsourced statements (on marriage), the assertion that only Western Hindus welcome converts (both unsourced and false), and a lack of tight sourcing (which V1 takes care of).Pectoretalk 19:27, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
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- It still doesn't mean that concepts of conversion/evangelization/proselyzation are NOT absent from Hindu literature. Desione (talk) 04:55, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- Page 43 of Anthropology of Religious Conversion is simply saying that "reconversions" are accepted eventhough "conversion" is not accepted. This point has already been clarified in the original text of conversion section. See quotation below:
Hindu nationalist claim that people convert to Christianity either because they have been tricked by missionaries or becuase they have been seduced by offers of material remuneration. By effectively linking conversion with issues of national security and cultural actualization, they argue that proselytezing is part of conspiracy to destroy Indian culture and to destabilize Indian polity. These objections have led to numerous protest rallies and speaches and, in some specific instances, to violent confrontation between Hindus and Christians. However, Hindu nationalist criticism of conversion and proselytizing is fraught with contradictions in both theory and practice. For instance, the movement has been actively "reconverting" Christian tribals to Hinduism, yet assert that Hinduism does not engage in conversion – Anthropology of Religious Conversion, Page 43 -
- The current text under conversion section also clearly states that some of the reason why Hindus are opposed to religious conversion can be attributed to a reaction to perceived or actual threat of conversion activities of other major religions. Desione (talk) 05:31, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
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- What you refer to as "non-Hindus" are actually people who were (or whose ancestors were) Hindus originally. Mainstream view is that one does not cease to be a Hindu just because he/she converted to any other religion (let me know if you need reliable sources for this). The concept of conversion is alien to Hinduism and was never imagined within Hinduism, so if you tell me that a particular person converted out of Hinduism and hence is a non-Hindu, I, as a Hindu, have absolutely no idea what you are talking about because I have never seen, heard, read, felt, imagined, or perceived "conversion". For all I know, that person has been a Hindu in all or his/her previous incarnations before his current birth and will continue to be a Hindu in all or his/her future incarnations after current death. A Hindu can become misguided, but that does not mean that he/she is not a Hindu anymore. Keep in mind that VHP does not attempt to "convert" people who were never Hindus or whose ancestors where never Hindus. There is a difference between "reconversion" and "conversion" in Hinduism (left, right, or center wing). Desione (talk) 06:17, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- Also, just to be clear: No group or sect or affiliation within the banner or Hinduism represents all Hindus and this is certainly true for any left or right wing organizations such as ISKCON and VHP. We need to oppose inclusion of text in this article based on either ISKCON views and activities or VHP views and activities. Desione (talk) 05:59, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
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- Let's settle on the major differences first. We can deal with these later. Desione (talk) 05:59, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
The following, in my opinion, are two most contentious differences in the original text and the proposed text (see diff). If these can be resolved, resolving other differences should be easy.
Difference 1: Original Text: Concepts of conversion, evangelization, and proselytization are absent from Hindu texts and in practice have never played a significant role, though acceptance of willing converts is becoming more common. Proposed Text: Concepts of conversion, evangelization, and proselytization are rarely found in the Hindu texts and in practice have never played a significant role in the religion. Quotes from ISKCON's version of BhagwadGita were used in order to support the claim that Hinduism in some shape or form encourages conversion/proselyzation/evangelization. However, these have been dismissed multiple times both in discussions that were carried out months earlier and in the current discussion (See section and and conversion section above, so not how concepts of conversion/evangelization/prozelytization became "rare" in Hindu texts as opposed to "absent."? Difference 2: Original Text: In general, Hindu view of religious freedom is not based on the freedom to proselytize, but the right to retain one’s religion and not be subject to proselyzation. Hindu leaders are advocating for changing the existing formulation of the freedom of religion clause in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights since it favors religions which proselytize. Proposed Text: text removed from proposed text. This original text is from an academic paper that discuss religious conversion based on views of experts in Hinduism such as Arvind Sharma (academic expert) and Swami Agnivesh (religious expert) and can be found in academic paper Right to Religoius Conversion: Between Apostasy and Proselytization. Desione (talk) 04:55, 20 October 2009 (UTC) - First off, please stop inserting your statements in the middle of mine. This doesn't help the discussion in any way. Second off, you continue to remove properly sourced relevant information in your blind reverts. I will address the other issues within a week or two.Pectoretalk 00:11, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Swami Agnivesh as a religious expert is a bit rich, the only people that think he is an expert on Hinduism are violent Islamic extremists. The "Hindu" (if one can even extrapolate enough to call it that) view on "human rights" really isn't something relevant to the matter of the role of conversion as a consistent part of Hinduism through history. This version was seen in the consensus version (which you ceremoniously opposed using the same "I heard it from a rich Indian swami" logic) of early 2008. I'll place that version on the table as well.Pectoretalk 00:20, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Next off, page 43 of religious conversion was meant to say just that. The idea that Hindus do not convert is utter hypocrisy. You displaying the quote only displayed that myth in quotes to the world.Pectoretalk 00:37, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- The Bhagavad Gita verse was hardly dismissed in earlier discussions. The quote exhorts spreading the word (as it were) of the Gita. In terms of other sources, Tamil history has a number of Tamil Saiva saints as converts for other religions. For example Sambandar converted the King of the Pandya empire (Lorenzen 45). These saints, the Nayanar, are bedrocks of Saivism, and were beatified as members of South India's 75 Apostles of Bhakti. So to say that Hindu religious texts (some of which were written by these saints and discussed these saints) lack any mention of concepts or conversion and proselytization is to utter a falsehood. Pillai 4, talks about how Agastya, and brahmins descended from him spread Murugan worship in South India. Not only that but the Tamil Ramayana notes Agastya spread Vedic Hinduism and the Tamil language across South India.Pectoretalk 00:37, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Pectore, please cite all the verses from the Bhagavadgita which you think endorse proselytization. Let me discuss them with you. Thanks.Kanchanamala (talk) -
- Swami Agnivesh is a sanyasi in the tradition of Arya Samaj and one of the people who represented Hinduism in Millinium Peace Summit of Religious and Spiritual Leaders at UN. see - World council of religious leaders, i.e he is well recognized as a Hinduism leader and hence the views he articulates are significant. Please produce text from [reliable sources|WP:RS] to back up your claim that the only people that think he (Swami Agnivesh) is an expert on Hinduism are violent Islamic extremists. Desione (talk) 04:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- The section has a very open-ended title called Conversion, so views of Human rights related to conversion is very much part of this section. Also before you attempt to narrow down the scope of the section to the role of conversion as a consistent part of Hinduism throughout history, please show that there is such a thing called conversion in Hinduism. Desione (talk) 04:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Utter hypocrisy only if you don't understand the difference between conversion and reconversion. Desione (talk) 04:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- I have no idea what (Lorenzen, 45) or Pillai 4 is. Is there a wikipedia policy that states that one should obfuscate sources by not producing quotes of relevant text and not provide full citation? Desione (talk) 04:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Again, please stop posting within my posts, as that breaks up the discussion.Pectoretalk 00:21, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Is there a wikipedia policy that says indented replies are not allowed? Using indented replies is a common practice on wikipedia discussions. It helps in narrowing the discussion to particular points or wording of a particular point. Desione (talk) 10:06, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Agnivesh is also seen as an extremely controversial figure, one that is despised by the Hindutva movement, which like it or not represents a large swath of Hindu consciousness. The VHP has not only outright criticized him [1], but there are questions within the Arya Samaj and other groups as to the validity of his position. Agnivesh Kicks off Storm at Puri[2]. He is notable as an activist, and not as a self-styled Swami.)
- As for conversion in Hinduism, so many people have converted to Hinduism through the ages that displaying it is a mere google search away (http://books.google.com/books?id=QYIDlzneRvUC&pg=PR37&dq=%22converted+to+hinduism%22#v=onepage&q=%22converted%20to%20hinduism%22&f=false). Perhaps some random Indian swami believes everyone is born Hindu (just like everyone is born Muslim in Islam), but if people change religion that is conversion. Reconversion also happens in India, but get it into your head that tribals and Southeast Asians were never Hindu to begin with until their conversion.
- "It is not quite correct to say one must be born a Hindu, since Hinduism has grown by gradually hinduizing the wilder tribes of India and the process still continues" (Eliot xxvii). "Hinduism does not convert people in the overt way in which Christianity and Islam do, but this does not mean that there is no conversion in it." (M.N. Srinivas 1976:574). "The only sense in which Hinduism is not proselytizing is that there is no formal mechanism for the conversion of individual non-Hindus." (Srinivas 576). This basically correlates to what the article says about no formal method of conversion, and also agrees with the notion that diksha/shuddhi have been used in a number of cases in conversion. Doniger 2009:576 (text is online) states that early in the fifteenth century even brahmins had developed methods of conversion and rituals to justify it. Its always been present, even if not prominent (which is the same reason Jews do not evangelize; they have been under "infidel" domination for so long).
- The "Hindu view of Human rights" is a laughable concept, not only because you cited prominent Hindu leader and defender of the faith Swami Agnivesh, but because so many Hindu groups engage in obvious proselytization that its hypocritical.Pectoretalk 00:21, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
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- Assimilation of distinct groups of people into Hinduism does take place over many generations where the gods(s) and method of worship of a group would get incorporated into Hinduism and various aspects of Hinduism get incorporated into the belief system of the group. This is not conversion as it is commonly understood today. it is a process of mutual assimilation and mutual cultural enrichment that takes generations and may also involve intermarriages over several generations. There are many groups in India that went through such as process of assimilation. This does not mean that Hinduism desires such a process (like Christianity and Islam desire conversion) as there are many groups in India that have managed to maintain their religious identity distinct from Hinduism while co-existing peacefully with Hinduism (Parsis for example). The spread of Hinduism into south-east asia was through such an assimilation process that lasted around a 1000 years and was driven by intermarriages between Hindu traders and local population in south-east asia. The source that you refer to above is alluding to (but not directly talking about) this assimilative process. Again mutual cultural and religous assimilation over several generations is not what is commonly understood as "conversion". Desione (talk) 10:06, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
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- He current role can probably be best described as a liberal reformer within Hinduism hence many of his views are controversial. VHP and Shankracharya of Puri have a much more conservative position on conversion within Hinduism as compared to Swami Agnivesh. Although I would agree with you that both Shankracharya of Puri and VHP are more influential within Hinduism than Swami Agnivesh. Given your position on conversion, I am surprised that you are trying to discredit Agnivesh. He should be your best friend. Desione (talk) 10:06, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- I am still waiting for you to to back up your claim through reliable sources that the only people that think he (Swami Agnivesh) is an expert on Hinduism are violent Islamic extremists Desione (talk) 10:06, 22 October 2009 (UTC
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- Pectore, can you be specific? If not, your assertion attributing proselytization per se to Hinduism will deserve to be ignored. Thanks.Kanchanamala (talk) 01:11, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
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- Historically people didn't "convert" to Hinduism, the gods that they believed in got incorporated into Hinduism over several generations. At the same time Hindu gods got incorporated into the belief system of these people. This is cultural and religious assimilation, not conversion. There was some text to clarify this point in the conversion section, but I guess someone removed it for some reason. Desione (talk) 10:06, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- The only group that I know of which carries out proselytization is ISKCON and ISKCON does not even consider itself a Hindu organization. Do you have realiable sources that show that "many hindu groups engage in obvious prselytization"?Desione (talk) 10:06, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Again desione, please stop posting in the middle of my posts. I don't know how many times I have to tell you that this is annoying and obfuscatory, but its just one of many things you seem to be unwilling to grasp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pectore (talk • contribs) 19:53, 22 October 2009
- See Talk page: thread your posts and threaded discussion Desione (talk) 07:45, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah and you're also not supposed to edit my posts. Having a threaded discussion is different than inserting your posts within my own, which is more or less editing my comments.Pectoretalk 03:16, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Conversion to Hinduism could be an assimilation of gods (and in many to most cases was, I'm not disputing that). In quite a few cases it wasn't, old gods were rejected and a conversion in the Western sense occurred. Lets start out with the Hun King Mihirakula, converted from Buddhism to Saivism in the early 6th century. There is Rudradaman_I in the second century CE, and Heliodorus (minister) of the second century BCE. In Manipur, old gods were rejected (see source). Your claim all conversions were through assimilation is completely false, as Hindu missionaries have been operating since at least the 3rd century BC (Coedes 1968:14-35), and definitely since the Mughal era (check Doniger and the conversions in Manipur). So historically people did convert to Hinduism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pectore (talk • contribs) 19:53, 22 October 2009
- The issue is not around following a particular god (like Mihirakula following Shiva). You don't have to believe in (any) god and can still be a Hindu. Hinduism doesn't not restrict anyone from following any god (whether Hindu or not) or none at all. The issue is whether one will get accepted as a Hindu by following a particular god and/or practices. Historically, acceptance into the Hindu fold has involved a process or assimilation that takes generations much like what you see among immigrant communities who move into foreign countries.
- One of the problems with Hinduism is that it does not fit into the conventional definition of religion used to denote Christianity and Islam, so you cannot take particular Christian/Islamic practices (such as conversion) and expect to find it in Hinduism as well just because Hinduism is also conventionally defined as a religion. Unlike Christianity and Islam, Hinduism historically has had ethnic/geographical overtones and has often been defined as a way of life, so historically one has to assimilate into Hinduism much like an immigrant has to assimilate into a foreign culture. Desione (talk) 07:45, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Mihirakula was not Buddhist. He went around destroying various Buddhist supas and monasteries. Do you have a reliable source to show that Mihirakula was Buddhist? Desione (talk) 07:45, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
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- Hindu influence already existed among Huns:
Various forms of Zoroastrian beliefs were widespread in Central Asia and northern and western Afghanistan in competition with Buddhism. There were also many adherents of Hindu belifs in Afghanistan and in Tokaristan. – [|History of Civilizations of Central Asia by Boris Abramovich Litvinovskiĭ, Volume 3, Page 147] -
- On assimilation of Huns:
After Mihirakula no great leader arose among the Hunas to reassert their hegemony. But inscriptions and literally works amply prove that for many centuries afterwards, they remained a potent factor in the political situation of nothern India until they were gradually absorbed into the Hindu social polity. – [| History of Ancient India by Rama Shankar Tripathi, page 283] -
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- Neither of the sources directly contradicts the assertion the ruler converted to Hinduism and made a break with his earlier faith. Also the historical examples under the Mughal empire and Manipur stand as well. Academic words don't adjust just because it hurts your feelings to see actual historical facts placed in front of you.Pectoretalk 03:16, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- The only available historical records show that Mihirakula was a follower of Shiva. There are no records to indicate that Mihirakula converted. Manipur is an exception (even in north-eastern India with several other population groups like manipuri people). People in Manipur were converted to Hinduism in 17th, 18th century - apparently Aurangzeb, in his attempt to supress Hinduism, put some Hindu brahamins out of work and they migrated to Manipur. Currently approx 48% of Manipur population is Hindu (i.e 1.1 million people). You still have the other 1 billion to account for :-). Desione (talk) 09:53, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- If you read the first sentence of the conversion section, the possibility of exceptional cases such as manipur has not been discounted: "Concepts of conversion, evangelization, and proselytization are absent from Hindu texts and in practice have never played a significant role, though acceptance of willing converts is becoming more common". I would be ok with adding a footnote to this sentence as further clarification for Manipur. Desione (talk) 09:53, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- DN Jha notes Mihirakula's family was Jain before "He is said to have been converted to Jainism. In AD 515 he was succeeded by his son Mihirakula" (Jha). Then on the subject of Mihirakula, "He was converted to the Shaiva faith" (Political history of India from the earliest times to the 7th century [sic] A.D), "certain it is that Mihirakula had become a convert to Hinduism" (Journal of ancient Indian history). Also Usha Sharma notes "Greeks and others embraced Hinduism and were freely admitted in Hinduism" (Cultural and Religious Heritage of India: Hinduism).Pectoretalk 20:43, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- Tormana, Mihirakula's father, converted to Jainism, because Jain literary works say so (see [3]). Desione (talk) 09:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- Mihirakula followed shiva because the Gwalior inscription (supposedly commissioned by Mihirakula himself) says so and coins sanctioned by Mihirakula carrying the image of the Shiva further validate this. There is no historical work or record that says Mihirakula "converted" whatever that is supposed to mean in the context to Hinduism. Desione (talk) 09:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- As for Indo-greeks, they are extremely well known to be widely influenced by Buddhism not Hinduism. (See Religions_of_the_Indo-Greeks). Desione (talk) 09:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- I already provided a number of historical works which stated he converted to Hinduism. At least six. Please do display your obstinacy on a different topic. The Indo-Greeks converted to Hinduism en masse, as I noted with Sharma. Your Swami-history really doesn't interest me when actual Hindu history (as noted by Hindus and academics in the sources I provided) displays conversion has always been part and parcel of religious practice.Pectoretalk 14:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- Versions one and three only suggest that conversion has played a significant role in the geographical spread of the religion and that conversion and proselytization occurred across a number of centuries (which corroborated with provided sources). Version 2 claims proselytization is a neologism of sorts wrt Hinduism, which by counterexample is false.Pectoretalk 20:43, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- These are isolated, insignificant, and dubious examples and there is no discussion of concepts in question within Hindu texts. Except Manipur, a complete lack of any real evidence. This opposed to other major religions (Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam) where "conversion" is a central theme that is discussed in their respective literally works, played a significant and undisputed role in their history as well as present, besides being further verified by independent historical records. At this point, I think we are beating a dead topic.Desione (talk) 09:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC).
- There is more than enough real evidence that I have provided (over 30 academic and expert sources) that states Hinduism has spread through Sanskritization, Conversion, and in some cases even proselytization. There is also no dispute that these events happened, since a dispute is between two valid points, rather than you and others with a warped view of history denying outright facts. As for whether the concepts are in the texts, texts like the Tirrutontar Antati talk about proselytization, while the Tirumurai talks about conversion to Saivism (http://books.google.com/books?id=RhsoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA353&dq=Tirutondar&as_brr=1&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q=Tirutondar&f=false).Pectoretalk 14:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- And how many academic and expert sources have you found stating that Hinduism is non-converting religion? Desione (talk) 03:05, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- If you can't grasp logic, the idea of counterexamples demolish academic anachronisms. I don't deny a lot of sources claim Hinduism doesn't convert, but unfortunately the presence of real examples of this being untrue allows us to discount those statements in conjunction with a large number of sources which discount the myth that Hinduism doesn't convert. Just because proselytization and conversion are not seen as very important does not instantly imply they have not played a significant role in its spread, both historically and in the status quo.Pectoretalk 16:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
- I am glad that there is at least some agreement (Hinduism being generally non-converting) and Manipur being converting. As for the rest, your completely ridiculous counterexample of BhagwadGita supporting proselytization speaks for itself. Desione (talk) 05:58, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
- So therefore we also agree that in a number of Hindu texts as stated above, concepts and examples of converts and proselytization are outlined, that conversion to Hinduism has always occurred, that Hindus have always proselytized, that numerous Hindu organizations engage in conversion, that Hinduism is not exclusive, and that certain interpretations even of the Bhagavad Gita seem to support a limited form of proselytization. Version three or one accurately defines the realities on the ground, while version two unfortunately is a reflection of a myopic, indocentric, exclusive mindset.Pectoretalk 21:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
- No Desione (talk) 05:20, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- On the subject of Agnivesh, he's viewed with extreme suspicion by the Hindu right. Neither he nor you nor the VHP are my "friends" in any way or form. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pectore (talk • contribs) 19:53, 22 October 2009
- ISKCON's acrobatics on the matter are interesting. Here's an ISKCON website that indicates otherwise. Besides ISKCON, Saiva Siddhanta converts, the VHP does, Parisada does, and Swaminarayan seeks converts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pectore (talk • contribs) 19:53, 22 October 2009
- Don't get offtrack. The original point was whether Hindu sects proselytize or not and I asked you for reliable sources that state that Hindu sects proselytize. Do you have such reliable sources? Desione (talk) 07:45, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Next, even if some Hindus consider everyone to be born Hindu (which a number of missionaries did), Wikipedia unfortunately doesn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pectore (talk • contribs) 19:53, 22 October 2009
- Please produce reliable sources to show that "Wikipedia unfortunately doesn't" Desione (talk) 07:45, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- The onus on you is to prove Wikipedia is supposed to reflect your worldview.Pectoretalk 03:16, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Changing someones religion in conversion, and only reconversion if they practiced Hinduism at some earlier point in this life.Pectoretalk 19:53, 22 October 2009 (UTC) Desione (talk) 07:45, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- You continue to apply concepts from Islam and Christianity which limit Hinduism despite all the discussion so far. You would need to step outside the mindset of Islam and Christianity to understand Hinduism. Conversion is irrelevant in Hinduism and Hindu concept of religion extends beyond (both before and after) this life Desione (talk) 07:45, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Words don't change meaning just because you wish for them to. Time and time again I have provided sources showing proselytization has been undertaken by Hindus and played a significant role in its expansion. Unlike you, I have also sourced my assertions.Pectoretalk 03:16, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Pectore, you are entitled to your views and definitions. However, the fact remains that proselytization per se is not part of Hinduism, period. Thanks.Kanchanamala (talk) 14:56, 23 October 2009 (UTC) - I would agree with that, and in fact from what I have seen most Hindus would be horrified at the suggestion that they proselytise. However certainly in the West they are accepting of non born-Hindus. An incident that illustrates this happened the other week. I was in our Mandir and a Christian group were visiting from a local Church. One of the Christians started talking to us, and several Hindus came and said that they help those who ask but never encourage anyone to change religion. -- Q Chris (talk) 16:51, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- As I have amply demonstrated, proselytization is part and parcel of the spread of Hinduism. If it horrifies "most Hindus", then so be it, they obviously lack an understanding of their own history.Pectoretalk 03:16, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
has no single founder —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.152.124.237 (talk) 00:25, 2 November 2009 (UTC) [edit] Possible article merger? Would it be worth bringing the content of the "Hindu_mythology" article under the title of the "Hinduism" article or might a simple change to "Hindu mythology" title alternatively be considered. The contents of "Hindu mythology" article are listed: 1 Sources 2 Vedic mythology 3 Epics 4 Cosmogony 5 The wars 5.1 The weapons 6 The Deluge 7 The peoples of the epics 7.1 Sapta Rishis 7.2 Pitrs 8 Worlds 9 Deities 9.1 Incarnations 10 House of Ikshvaku 11 Bharatavarsha The contents of the "Hinduism" article are listed as: 1 Etymology 2 Typology 3 Definitions 4 Beliefs 4.1 Concept of God 4.2 Devas and avatars 4.3 Karma and samsara 4.4 Objectives of human life 4.5 Yoga 5 Practices 5.1 Rituals 5.2 Pilgrimage and festivals 6 Scriptures 6.1 Shruti 6.2 Smritis 7 History 8 Society 8.1 Denominations 8.2 Ashramas 8.3 Monasticism 8.4 Varnas 8.5 Ahimsa and vegetarianism 8.6 Conversion I have recently raised the issue of the neutrality of the title of the 'Creation myth' article in that articles discussion page and have questioned the ethical use of the use of mythology related terminologies in relation to certain religious stories. This was done from the perspective of someone who has no personal belief in a personal god and who only has a basic knowledge of Hinduism but who acknowledges the possibility that, within conceptions of a god of great power, anything might be possible. Gregkaye (talk) 09:54, 2 November 2009 (UTC) [edit] Hindus killing Christians! [4] It's very scary... Definitely would add this info to this article. --71.106.212.251 (talk) 06:10, 4 November 2009 (UTC) - The website has poor grammer ("I am born"), it assumes that Greek mythology was derived from Hinduism (instead of being from the same source -- after all, there is no Greek form of Shiva, and Dravidian words simply have no real analogs in Greek), it denies the Indo-Aryan migrations (by using a spinned version of the outdated term "invasion"), it is mainly an attack on Christianity, it shows ignorance of Christianity (it claims that the decline of Christianity in the west is a result of people not becoming priests and nuns, when most Catholic countries other than France are still majority Christian, and many countries are Protestant and haven't had priests or nuns for centuries but remained mostly Christian for a long time). Overall, does not qualify for NPOV, and isn't even really about Hindus killing Christians. It was dishonest of you to say that is what that website was about. Plus, the rest of that website is mainly there to sell books, and we don't use sites created to advertise products as sources, unless perhaps we are talking about the product advertised. Since this article isn't about the books written by Stephen Knapp, it wouldn't be appropriate. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:03, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
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- WP:DFTT.Pectoretalk 16:26, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Typo in the Conversion section {{editsemiprotected}}"proselyzation" needs to be changed to "proselytization".
- Y Done. Thank you for your contribution to Wikipedia. Intelligentsium 23:30, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Hinduism There is no single founder of Hinduism. People who believe in Hinduism believe in heaven called Moksha and believe in their god named Brahman. They believe in the caste system. A caste system is a social group that you are born into and cannot get out of. They have no single sacred text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockon9057 (talk • contribs) 23:26, 18 November 2009 (UTC) Hinduism is not a religion. It is a modern coinage meaning anything and nothing. Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan gave it some sense by having it as referring to a view of life. There will always be as many views of life as there will be Hindus at any given moment. Thanks.Kanchanamala (talk) 02:28, 20 November 2009 (UTC) Caste system is a social system, a bad aspect in Hindu culture, just like slavery in Christianity or in Islam social systems. [edit] Karma in Hinduism I improved the section on God of the article Karma in Hinduism. Experts in this field, please take a look. Raj2004 (talk) 14:19, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
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