| This article is within the scope of multiple WikiProjects. Click [show] for further details. |  | This article is within the scope of WikiProject Motorsport, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Motorsport on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks. | |  B | This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. | | Top | This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. | | | |  | This page has been cited as a source by a media organization. The citation is in: | [edit] Standard Engine Surely there should be a section on the proposed "Standard Engine" built by Cosworth?--Amedeo Felix (talk) 13:37, 9 December 2008 (UTC) [edit] Inaugural Season Have I missed some discussion on this? As far as I am concerned Formula One is NOT synonymous with the World Drivers Championship, nor does "season" imply "championship". -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 21:16, 12 December 2008 (UTC) [edit] Highest Class of Racing/Highest class of open wheel/highest class of FIA sanctioned racing I think the first paragraph needs a clarification on this. some Facts: -The FIA does not use the name Open wheel to refer to Formula One cars. I think there should be some merging in the articles of Open wheel car and Formula Racing as the difference is only the name used; Therefore referring to Formula One as open wheel Formula racing cars is blatant redundancy. -There have been Formula One cars that were Not open wheel, like those Mercedes drove by Fangio (which he didn't like because he couldn't actually see the tires). We shouldn't refer in general to Formula One cars as 4 wheel vehicles either as there have been 8 wheel vehicles in the history of the sport. -the FIA has a ranking of Driving Licenses being the Super Licence the top one, in terms of both requirements (skills, experience, success) and money (it actually costs quite a bit); A driver with an International driving license class A, recognized all over the world as the top "normal" racing license, is good for participating in th World Rally Championship, CART IndyCar World Series (when existed with whatever name they were using), Endurance racing (Le mans, daytona, Nurburgring), stock cars, etc.. except Formula One! where only Super License is good enough then: Where The top Racing License is required for Both Constructors and drivers alike, is called the Top racing category in this case F1; Since Super License is a FIA thing then it is the top category according to the FIA. -The Monaco Grand Prix shouldn't be highlighted as it is, as despite the fact being one of the most watched sports events in the world, Monaco is not so definig to F1 as is the case with Indianapolis500 to IndyCar or 24 Du Mans to LeMans Endurance (AMLS and others), or Daytona 24 to Grand-Am, Monaco is more the exception than the rule in F1. -Also Bahrain, China, turkey are highlighted it should simply be stated Asia and middle-east. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.28.151.102 (talk) 02:13, 31 January 2009 (UTC) - The whole article needs a serious overhaul. Regarding your points:
- True, it's a UK vs UK thing, I think.
- There have been closed wheel F1 cars; I can't think of any eight-wheelers but one six-wheeler (Tyrrell P34) has raced and others (March 2-4-0 and Williams FW08 derivative) have tested. however, cars are now formally restricted to four wheels and having no bodywork over them, so provided we're clear that we're talking about the modern sport, it's a true statement.
- I've not heard of the team license, but if so let's find a reference and put it in.
- But if Monaco is much more known than the other races, then surely it should be highlighted.
- Agree about Bahrain, China etc. 4u1e (talk) 22:04, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
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- About UK being the center of F1, let's put it in terms of:
- -Tyres, very critical for the performance of the car (in fact there is no good racing sometimes because the cars cannot go outside the racing line with those soft compounds... anyway). recently: bridgestone, Michelin, Goodyear, all of them base outside UK with production plants outside UK. 3 out of 3 not in UK
- -Engines, the central part of every car. Honda (with mostly japanese engineers) is developed in Japan, Toyota (Italians, British) based on Germany as it is the case with BMW and Mercedes (I don't think there's anyone speaking english), and Ferrari in Italy. 5 out 6 engine supliers out of UK.
- You might want to read Mercedes-Benz High Performance Engines? -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 09:33, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
- -Aerodynamics, in this respect I think nearly every Aerodynamics Engineer (or Aerodynamicist) is British, this is huge point for UK.
- -Electronics, now Microsoft does everything but it is a division based on UK, but until very recently there was Magnetti Marelli and others, so not a big point for UK.
- -Teams HQ, 4 teams out of UK (Ferrari, Toro Rosso, BMW, Toyota), 3 splited (half in UK half outside (Renault in france (a joke) McLaren Mercedes in Germany (the half of Mercedes I mean) Honda in Japan (they actually take the decisions from US))) that leave us with 3 pure British teams (Williams, Force india, Red Bull...) so all of that doesn't make it for majority of F1 being british and it cannot be stated so in the article.
- Mercedes F1 engines are produced by the former Ilmor company, now owned by Merc but based firmly in the UK. Mercedes also owns half of McLaren, but the entity is British - and officially competes as such. As for the rest, you're mixing up ownership and where the teams are based: Honda and Renault are based in the UK, not in Japan or France. Yes, Honda is owned by a Japanese company and Renault by a French one, so they are subject to their decisions, but the actual teams are based in the UK. There is no American connection at all that I am aware of with the Honda team - the Indycar operation was a minor satellite. A majority of the teams, not their parent companies, are based in the UK: Williams, McLaren, Honda, Renault, Red Bull and Force India. 4u1e (talk) 06:45, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
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- About the 8 wheeled cars, yeah, I'm a dumb, sorry for that, you're right it's the tyrrel using 4 front tyres (plus 2 rear tyres) what I was referring about.
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- About the Monaco GP. you've certainly got a point but I'm still dubious as I said it's the exception and not the rule in F1, it could be added to the part of watching figures, But why don't you put it in the place you'd like it to be and then we see how it looks like?
[edit] FIA Formula One World Championship regarding the recently revert changes: Legally speaking, and according to the FIA (http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/championships/f1/Pages/SeasonGuide.aspx), F1 is named FIA Formula One World Championship, with F1 and Formula One being registered brands of the Formula One Group for commercial use. Historically F1 has allways been a world chamionship with the first drivers' champion Farina being named a World Champion. There was Grand prix Racing before WWII and it was not a World Championship, and there have been Grands Prix that were not World Chamionship events. The term FIA Formula One World Championship is recent though, as legally speaking the current Governing Body is not the same as in the 70's or 60's let alone the 50's. Bernie Ecclestone is the main investor of the formula one group from very recently and the actual structure of the FIA is recent as well (the actual structure is after the FISA and FOCA thing). So even though it is recent it has to be included in the article as it true and verifiable. The rest is just copy editing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.28.212.103 (talk) 21:28, 20 February 2009 (UTC) - Only time for a very quick comment, but you're wrong on pretty much every count. F1 existed before the world championship (from 1948), the world championship was run to F2 regs, not F1, in 1952 and 1953, for 10 years (1950 to 1959) the world championship included the Indy 500, which has never been an F1 race, and almost every year from 1950 to 1983 F1 races were run outside the championship. The championship and F1 have been the same for the last 20 years or so, but historically they are quite separate entities. There was a Grand Prix world championship pre-war in 1925-27, although it was for manufacturers, not drivers and the governing body of motorsport is the same as it has always been - the FIA. Pre-1950 it was known as the AIACR, and from pre war until 1991 it managed motorsport through a subsidiary body (the CSI, later known as FISA), but legally it's the same entity. The copyediting you suggest may be OK, but I'm afraid your facts are not. 4u1e (talk) 21:55, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- Having said all that, the current wording at the start of the lead is probably fine - the issue is that F1's historical status is missing from the lead. Suggest something like: "Historically the FIA World Championship and Formula One were separate things. Although most World Championship races were run to Formula One rules, some were not (most notably the 1952 and 1953 World Championship seasons), and many Formula One races were run outside the World Championship until 1983." 4u1e (talk) 22:17, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- No problem with that - it is quite wrong for the lead to contradict the body of the page and wikilinks to the page, though, which is the case as it now stands. We also need a cite for the team franchise being called a super licence - it clearly does amount to the same thing, but I hadn't heard the term used, and the current ref seems be specifically about drivers. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 23:26, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
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- mmmmhh, I think that part of the article is already citing actual (current): performance figures (cars), championship structure (drivers (it didn't exist back in the days of Nuvolari let's say) and constructors (it didn't exist back in the days of Mercedes (pure Mercedes) let's say) also watching figures and internal structure (like FOM), so I think the lead refers to the F1 as it is today and therefore it should be referred as it is legally named. For instance, Nigel Mansell won the CART IndyCar World Series but Zanardi won the CART Championship series and bourdais won the Champcar World Series then if they name it the "Hello kitty F1 World Championship" then that's how it has to appear on wikipedia. I do agree that very little is hinted in the lead part of the article about the rich history of F1 (There is just a small mention to the formula changes) perhaps that's what is missing, to add some lines about where F1 is coming from so the uninformed reader is not left with the impression of a some sort of newly created racing series. and yes there is no reference for constructors being required to be holders of super licences (a missing reference should be added... quite tricky to find though) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.28.134.20 (talk • contribs)
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- Granted the wording is present tense, but that needs to be reinforced, for example by explicitly saying "currently". As it stands someone following the link from Oulton Park International Gold Cup might get the impression that the Gold Cup was part of the World Championship. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 11:27, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
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- yes, i was thinking myself the "currently" was missing as well... it was added the missing fact. As always, you have the right to change it to better resemble the real thing.
[edit] Adding F1Badger.com as a link Would this be ok to add a link to the recently refreshed "F1 Badger" website. It provides readers with an insight into the sport, in a more casual fashion, taking itself less seriously than the plethora of other independent F1 websites. What's the policy on this? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamsmills (talk • contribs) 15:24, 6 March 2009 (UTC) [edit] Speedy Deletion (Urgent) I have visited many past F1 race pages and all of them have been flagged for speedy deletioon because noone has added the redesigned nav box at the bottom. I am worried that many will be deleted if no one does anything about it. Any suggestions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.0.212.69 (talk) 16:22, 15 March 2009 (UTC) - The new navboxes were only added to those race pages which were part of the F1 championship, non-championship races are not part of the template. I'm not personally sure of the notability guidelines for non-championship F1 races, do we even have defined rules? Apterygial 07:27, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think what happened was that the old navbox template was nominated for speedy deletion while it was still transcluded into dozens of race report articles, which may have given the impression that the race report articles themselves were nominated for speedy deletion. But it's all been resolved: all instances of the old template were replaced with the new template and the old template was eventually deleted. To my knowledge, no F1 race report articles are in danger of imminent speedy deletion. DH85868993 (talk) 08:13, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
[edit] 2009 data Do we really need all the 2009 lists and tables in this article? It's just something else to update after every race. DH85868993 (talk) 03:28, 6 April 2009 (UTC) - I tend towards thinking not, provided we have a c lear link to where the results are. 4u1e (talk) 07:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- Exactly. I think its presence implies that it is hugely more important than the ~60 other seasons. Apterygial 07:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- I've removed them twice, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Formula_One&diff=283543993&oldid=283534081 here] and here but they keep getting added... D.M.N. (talk) 12:21, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
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- Why have u del the calendar ??--Wrcf1 12:28, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
[edit] References The article makes a great number of unreferenced statements, specially regarding figures (performance, general statistics, historic facts). Since wikipedia guidelines instruct to every statement to be verifiable and since the number of un-sourced statements is rather high, in the lead section and in the article body as well, then the missing references tag has been added to the article head and should not be removed nor the missing fact inline tags as it has been done citing "better looks and better readability", this is an encyclopedia, if there are no sources the statements have to be either tagged or removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.28.134.41 (talk) 15:39, 28 April 2009 (UTC) [edit] Performance Figures [edit] Top Speed Top Speed during 2009 has been in the neighborhood of 310 Km/h (slipstreaming). 360 km/h figure in the lead paragraph is likely incorrect, and as of today it is unsourced. [edit] Lateral/Braking Forces In 2009 a new formula was introduced, with more restrictions regarding the aerodynamics which should decrease aerodynamic downforce and grip at the front axle. The rear diffusor is aimed at increasing air speed beneath the bodywork thus increasing the downforce generated at the front but the "Brawn diffuser" works in the way of stabilizing the rear end by taking the fluxes from the sidepods and directing them to the double decker "hole" at the back, in other words the teams have now less aerodynamic grip on the front and more mechanical grip overall, with the brawn diffuser advantage of more stability in the rear (less oversteery car) then the lateral forces are expected to be significantly lower than the previous years. (the times will be quickier because of the slick tyres help a lot in slow speed corners). 5G in 2009 is very unlikely. In the first few paragraphs it says traction control has been banned since 1991, but it was alowed from 2000-2007. It was re banned in 2008.Spinodontosaurus (talk) 18:40, 11 November 2009 (UTC) - If you can find references for this year's performance figures, please do edit the article to suit. It's one of the problems of this topic that some bits of it change on a fairly continuous basis. 4u1e (talk) 19:49, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Recent changes OK, so it's probably best to discuss this stuff here - you, or somebody (please sign your posts ~~~~) have started a discussion on performance above, so I'll concentrate on the other stuff. - "Michael Andretti didn't win anything". Not in Formula One, no. But he did win the 1991 CART World Series season, so the statement that "Other CART or ChampCar Champions, like Michael Andretti and Cristiano da Matta won no races in F1." is factually correct. Could 190.28.147.50 explain what I'm missing here?
- Sorry, that was my mistake, I was truly believing Michael Andretti had not ever won the CART championship ! I didn't have it in my mind and I think I checked the IndyCar stats instead... Nevertheless, the CART/Champcar champions not to score a victory in f1 is incomplete: M. Andretti, Zanardi, Da Matta, Bourdais are the ones, two names missing... (I had one name missing)...
- But we're not looking to have a complete list - these are examples only. Bourdais is not a good example because he may (unlikely, I admit!) find success, and Zanardi competed in F1 before as well as after his Champ Car career, so he doesn't illustrate the point being made about career progression. 4u1e (talk) 17:52, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- Refs in the lead. You say "Sorry but lead sections do need references, Always." You might want to have a look at the list of FAs from March of this year (April's list isn't complete yet). Of the first ten promoted articles I looked at, six have no refs in the lead, the other four had a couple. None were fully referenced: common practice is not as you suggest. The logic behind this is that since the lead is a summary of the rest of the article, all material that appears there will be referenced in the main body of the article, which is usually a more appropriate place to do it. Having said that, and despite being pretty sure that this used to appear in WP:REF, I can't see it now. Current practice may not have caught up with a change in the guidelines, so I'll leave a note at the FA page asking for advice.
- 190.28.147.50's recent edits removed the 'Beyond F1' section - I assume this was an error?
- The 220 mph statement is referenced in the section 'Cars and technology' - it may well be out of date, in which case please delete the out of date reference and replace it with a tag, or even better, find a ref for the now correct figure. The 5G figure is also given in the section on the cars, but is not ref'd there, so I added a ref tag to it, which by the logic given above is the best place to do it (IMHO!).
Happy to discuss all of this. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 18:54, 30 April 2009 (UTC) -
- I added the out of date tag to the formula one cars article (and fell kind of doing the same to the f1 article as well, but I think it's ok like that) , about the references, you know it's always a real pain finding those ones specially regarding performance figures... Licenses and stuff is easier since there is the FIA page... let's see when linkable info is available. thanks for the clarification on guidelines for the lead section! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.28.145.94 (talk • contribs)
- Ah, found the guidance on citations in the lead: Wikipedia:LEAD#Citations. I think the most relevant bit is "The need for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. Contentious material about living persons must be cited every time, regardless of the level of generality." So, the question becomes: are the items tagged for reference complex, current, controversial or contentious? I'd suggest not: living people are no really involved and surely there's no controversy over the meaning of formula, tv viewing figures, who owns the commercial rights or that teams have extremely high budgets. People do like to squabble over top speeds and cornering forces for some reason, so there may be a case for that - although I'd still contend that the best place to ref is in the article.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 4u1e (talk • contribs)
[edit] Wet races Perhaps an intriguing idea...a category for all Formula One events held in the rain (such as Donnington Park in 1993, Fuji in 1976, Spain in 1996, etc). Since such races often produce unpredictable results, a new category page with all such races may be much appreciated by those who are interested. 97.125.93.25 (talk) 03:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC) - I agree. Perhaps we should create Category:Formula One races affected by rain as a sub-category of Category:Formula One race reports? Also would you agree that the category should include races such as the 2009_German_Grand_Prix? The race itself was dry, but it did rain during qualifying. AJCham2097 (talk) 14:26, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
- I don't have strong feelings one way or the other, but some other points you may wish to consider:
- whether you want a category, or a list (like List of red-flagged Formula One races). I think a list might be better, because you can display information such as how heavily it rained and at which stages of the event, without the need for people to visit each individual race article.
- whether or not to use the word "affected" in the category/article name as it's somewhat ambiguous, i.e. "races affected by rain" can be interpreted as "races where it rained" or "races where the outcome was affected/altered because of rain" (although you could always clearly state the interpretation at the top of the article/category).
- DH85868993 (talk) 02:55, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- A third thought, and iirc the reason we didn't take this up last time it was suggested, is what is the reliable source that defines whether a race is wet or not? Without such a source, we can't support the category without straying into original research. 4u1e (talk) 06:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- At track officials do make declarations at the start of the race whether it is 'wet' or not, something made necessary by the increasing strictness governing the use of tyres, but this is a recent development and does not extend back to the series beginnings in 1950. --Falcadore (talk) 06:59, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Note that there is a parallel discussion occurring at WP:F1. As pointed out in that discussion, we discussed this idea in August last year and an article called List of rain affected Formula One Grands Prix was deleted (here's the AfD). DH85868993 (talk) 09:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Constructors time line Jordan is in there twice. The one that is green should be Jaguar. I don't know how to change it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.159.68.133 (talk) 16:42, 30 August 2009 (UTC) - Fixed. Well spotted. Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 11:05, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Breakaway threat in 2009 This year's game of brinkmanship was largely a non-event in terms of F1's 60 year history. As such its coverage in this article is hugely disproportionate. The section should be massively scaled back. In a few years time it will only warrant a couple of lines as an aside. danno 17:50, 4 October 2009 (UTC) - Recentism is a contuining problem with Formula One articles. Agree. --Falcadore (talk) 20:42, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
- Agree. A couple of lines in the history section would be more than adequate. 4u1e (talk) 21:05, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Needless Trivia? This user [1] is adding "important facts" to F1 articles. I think that some or all of them are needless trivia and under the title "Trivia" would be deprecated, at least. Opinions are sought before all articles have these sections and they have to be pruned. Britmax (talk) 17:26, 1 November 2009 (UTC) - It's trivia. Also the Alonso one is a BLP and the other one was confusing due to the way it was written. Enter CambridgeBayWeather, waits for audience applause, not a sausage 22:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Going solo This page says the Concorde Agreement banned privateers, & this page says 1984, but without cite. If somebody can cite, can you add to both? Thx. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 23:05, 25 November 2009 (UTC) |
