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The Long-Term View: Talking to the Younger Folk fightaging.org | Indian Music : Indian Classical Music, Indian Folk Music, Religious... recoverdiscover.com | Talking Watch, Talking Watches, Talking Clock, Talking Bible, Talking... independentliving.com | Alternative Health: Folk Medicine, directory for Alternative Health/Folk... healthysense.com |
[edit] Folk rock?Someone wrote: I've tried to clarify this. "Folk rock" is used very specifically and is typically far more recognised by instrumentation than form. Many folk musicians of the 60s (Tom Paxton, Phil Ochs etc) sang new, topical material (which distinguished them from traditional folk musicians) but in the folk idiom (acoustic instruments, traditional arrangements and often traditional melodies.) Re: the comment about "marketers" in the first paragraph. If language reflects common usage, what is now called "folk music" has as much right to the name as any other form. To the latter: fair enough, but does the first paragraph actually imply otherwise? --LMS [edit] Cynical remarkI like the page in general but wonder if the following is unnecessarily cynical (implying, as it does, a financial rather than artistic incentive to change musical styles):
Ya know, I agree, but I don't know how to change it right off. Anyone else want to give it a stab? --LMS The deletions are merely of things that seemed redundant. Additions may solve the problem of tone mentioned above. One bit of the original puzzles me, so I corrected the grammar but left it in--but what does "unrecognizable to its source" actually mean? I like the new additions--lots of good new information here. I added some more. The problem now is that the article is rambling and disorganized, and I am probably not the best person to organize and clarify it. BTW, using the word "purist," without the quotes, makes it sound as if the authors of the article are not purists, which we don't want to imply. :-) See neutral point of view. --LMS
[edit] Skiffle?Perhaps someone who knows the facts :-) could add in "Skiffle" music, from whence the Beatles sprang, which was evidently a British folk form in the 1950's. Certainly the Beatles stole (er, utilised!) many folk forms in their music. (date of question unknown, but it predates the answer below by months.)
John Lennon, of the Beatles, formed a group called The Quarrymen in 1957. Later, Lonnie Donegan brought skiffle to a wider audience. G4sxe 20:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC) I think we are going to need a List of folk musicians at some point soon. user:sjc [edit] POVThis page is ridiculous. I agree with the POV, but it is still a clear and obvious POV. I'm not sure how to fix it right now, but I will and come back. Tokerboy 09:00 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC) Article is getting long so I put in section headings; also a little bit on the classical composers who went folksong collecting. Sorry about the clash of prose styles.
[edit] Old listI removed the following list of folk styles, because I think it's too highly debatable to include without annotation. Maybe it could be moved to List of genres of folk music or something, but I'm not sure of the value of such a thing given the lack of any terribly agreeable definition of folk music. Tuf-Kat 20:41, Dec 19, 2003 (UTC)
[edit] "horses" remarkIs there any citation for the remark attributed to Louis Armstrong? I believe I've heard pretty much the same attributed to Bill Broonzy and I bet this obvious joke was made more than once. If it is there as a direct quote, it should be cited, otherwise at least it should be worded as an indirect quote. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:35, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
Here's a citation for Broonzy saying this: [1], probably from a better source than a generic "quotes" site. And another: Michael Cooney, citing it here, is a pretty solid folk-revival musician himself (although he misspells "Studs Terkel"): [2]. Another site says it's attributed variously to Big Bill Broonzy, Woody Guthrie and Igor Stravinsky. [3]. Someone could probably do a pretty good article on the history of this quotation. I think I'll keep the quote in the article, use a better wording of it than the one there right now, and indicate how unclear it is who said it. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:49, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC) [edit] "Many feel"In the section "Variation in folk music" the phrase "Many feel..." begs for some citations. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:05, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Horses againI feel that the horse passage is really landing us in a muddle--we've got Igor Stravinsky as a popular musician now, which surely isn't right. The passage adds a lot to length, and it's not helping readers to understand folk music. So I excised, hoping not to elicit rage (or reversion)... I'm intrigued that the saying has been attributed to so many people, and think it might be worth installing elsewhere--say, in the Louis Armstrong article, or in Wikiquote? On another front, I pondered, and decided that the "Many feel..." passage is utterly POV and should go, too. Opus33 05:42, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC) For what it's worth, the removed paragraph (as I had left it, but with one further edit -- I had missed that misplaced word "popular") reads:
Probably doesn't belong in this article, perfectly glad to be rid of it. Wikiquote might be a good place for an extended version of this. Surely not in the Louis Armstrong article: I'd venture that he is one of the least likely of the people to whom it is attributed. My vote would be for Broonzy; Studs Terkel is still alive, so someone just might be able to get confirmation of that from the horse's mouth, so to speak. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:59, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC) [edit] The Singers' Club"the Singers' Club and was the first, as well as the most enduring, of what became known as folk clubs" Neither the first (Newcastle's folk club began in 1953) nor the most enduring (it closed its doors in 1991). The Troubabor lives on, as does Edinburgh's Sandy Bell's.
[edit] Gundula KrauseIs Gundula Krause well-enough known to merit mention in this article? I will readily admit to never before having heard of her. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:41, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Márta SebestyénSame question about Márta Sebestyén. I love her work, but is it that influential? --JButler 22:18, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] ReferencesAnyone know why in "References", Charles Seeger is a sub-section of Richard Middleton - or is this just a formatting error? -- SGBailey 22:19, 2005 Feb 6 (UTC)
[edit] Traditional musicI have redirected traditional music here, and added a paragraph on the term (please clean up the paragraph -- I can't think of a more graceful way to explain it). See talk:traditional music. Tuf-Kat 21:45, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC) [edit] Anglocentric ViewpointSince both ethnic music and traditional music redirect here, this article ought to be written from a culture-neutral point of view. As it is, nearly all the examples are from the American/English/Irish traditions only. Especially without the list of folk styles (above), the whole article gives the impression that folk music applies to certain cultures only, which is lamentable. Maybe a "folk music around the world" section would be in order? I'd also love to see "foreign" examples mixed in with the existing ones in the rest of the article also. --CodeGeneratR 18:57, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Texts not consulted in this article include (to name a few of the most egregious ommissions):
I won't even mention David Evans, Robert Palmer, Bill Ferris, and Jeff Todd Titon. People interested in this topic should consult all of these first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.132.201 (talk) 15:02, 15 July 2008 (UTC) The article as it stands is completely unacceptable. For one thing, as pointed out by others, it covers too small a geographical area and narrow time frame. The article "folk music" in the New Harvard Dictionary of Music (1986) by Bruno Nettl ought to be a model for how such an article ought to look. Nettl is the foremost authority in the field. His omission from the references is really telling. Nettl's Harvard Dictionary article is quite long -- 5 double-columned pages of small print -- as befits this complex topic. Also, since he is not American born, he has a broader point of view. Readers should know that Peter van der Merwe and Dave Harker, who appear to be the principle sources for the present wikipedia article, are controversial figures, who write from outside the mainstream. Though they may be very much worth reading, they should not be read in isolation from more reputable and balanced authorities by anyone who is seeking to inform themselves about what folk music is. Readers of Wikipedia deserve to be told what the objections are to van der Merwe and Harker's points of view. Perhaps there ought to be a separate category about the history of folk music scholarship and the various controversies and questions connected with it. The urban folk revival and folk rock also deserve separate entries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mballen (talk • contribs) 16:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
[edit] RiotFolk?Is RiotFolk really of enough significance to merit a mention in a general article about folk music? -- Jmabel | Talk 16:31, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Traditional music againSee talk:traditional music. I'd appreciate anyone's comments on what to do with that article (as well as trad and roots music, while we're at it). Essentially, I redirected traditional music to folk music some time ago, then took a wikibreak. During the wikibreak, someone made an article on trad, and there was a VfD about it, and it was redirected to traditional music on the basis that some non-folk compositions are credited "trad", and so a redirect to folk music would be inappropriate. I can see the logic here, but I don't know what traditional music could ever be about -- the practice of citing traditional popular songs as "trad"? That seems an absurd subject for an article. The user in question is no longer active, so I'm posting here in the hopes of getting some other opinions. (Roots music is completely unrelated to the current discussion, but I thought I'd bring it in since it's a related topic and may as well be dealt with at the same time) Tuf-Kat 04:44, September 9, 2005 (UTC) [edit] POV?Recently added paragraph beginning "Yet the ability to sing 'reasonably well' can be defined many different ways… seems to me like pure POV. I won't revert unilaterally, but I'm seeking consensus on that. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:26, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
I think one must be extremely careful in using the term 'tradition' or deeming music/songs to be 'traditional'. Firstly, both imply the fixed and unchanging existence of a concrete 'tradition,' which is quite simply false. Secondly, these debates have been the centre of disucssion by academics, artists and fans for decades and there is as yet one, unified definition of such terms. Some interesting reading could be done of some works by those like Philip Bohlman or Ron Ayerman and Andrew Jamison (amongst a hundered others; especially 'Poplore' by Gene Bluestein) and these would highlight certain aspects regarding this subject. Primarily, i feel such works are quite correct in their identifying no singular 'tradition' of folk music and therefore the impossibility of 'traditional' music. It is true music may belong to a 'tradition,' but only in its borrowing of particular practices or musical elements from the past. Thus, tradition is always the recreation of the past in the present moment, and as such 'tradition' is often created by those with political ideals for political purposes - as was the case with both the British and American folk song revivals. Thus, people like Llyod, MacColl and, Lomax and Seeger in America, were somewhat eager to portray the rural idealism of some imagined past community, in which people all worked together and orally passed on their songs and stories. To an extent this is true and oral transmission is a fundamental part of the folk process, but the singers/performers of these rural communities were not themselves 'traditional' as such, as they were only recreating the past in the present in their own time, which we can see in their appropriation/continuation of Child Ballads and other European ballad-forms in Virginia and Appalachia. However, to portray a unified community and the identity created through this is extremely useful propaganda for left-wing parties in particular who can use and have used the music to firstly, build national pride and secondly, unify large numbers of people under an ideology. Like i say, many have written entire books on this subject alone and therefore its somewhat difficult to say everything here but, just a few things to consider. Thanks
[edit] An example of a folk balladI removed a link to a sound file, which is a recording of one version of folk song "Barbara Allen". Folk music around the world is very differnt, it would be anglocentric and biased to offer only a sample of English folk music in the article (that should be) about all folk music. This is an English language Wikipedia, not bound to any country. If we offered an extensive amount of folk music samples, this page would get immense. So let's offer nothing here, and instead put them in the articles about specific music styles, OK? -Hapsiainen 15:11, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
I think the sample is a plus. I'd love to get half a dozen other samples which together would give some indication of how broad a category folk music is, but certainly a sample of one of the most durable folk songs in the English language is appropriate to an article on folk music written in any language. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:06, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Roots redirectI'm surprised that Roots redirects me here - artists performing "Roots" music often don't consider themselves to be Folk artists, though they can see the (musical) link Gwaka Lumpa 17:34, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Merge with FolkiesPer discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Folkies, it was decided to merge Folkies into this article. Enjoy. howcheng {chat} 00:14, 5 January 2006 (UTC) I have Folk Music as a hobby on my user page and I am a Folkie, so I agree. G4sxe 18:19, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit]i created Template:Contemporary folk music-footer last night but didn't add it to any pages as i then thought it would probably be better to move it to Template:Folk music-footer and expand it to link to other styles of folk music. thoughts on what else should be added? --MilkMiruku 18:41, 29 March 2006 (UTC) [edit] Room for Breton Folk musicAs this article is written in English, the place of Breton Folk music is very poor here, why so? There is much to say, even if we want to speak only of the influence of artists as Alan Stivell in the English speaking world. User:E1 14:05, 6 April 2006 [edit] Natural SelectionFrom "Variation in Folk Music": "A perfect process of natural selection would not have permitted these incoherent versions to survive." This line should be deleted, as it shows a poor grasp (or simply non-understanding) of the theory of natural selection (especially Dawkin's concept of Memes) and is simply put not true. Ebolart 16:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit]I have noticed that as a nation industrializes, and folk music is replaced with popular music, the scope and duration of copyright tend to increase at the same time. Could fear of being caught performing popular music in public without a license, along with the strongly disputed affordability of public karaoke licenses from BMI and the like, be part of the reason why people lose musical skill? --Damian Yerrick (☎) 23:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] CindyWhy should Cindy remain? It's because this article is long on opinion and short on fact. In Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Let the facts speak for themselves, there is the example of an article on Hitler:
Cindy dispassionate listing of variant lyrics lets readers see for themselves how folk music morphs, as each singer changes existing verses to suit himself, and creates entirely new verses. Isn't that preferable to pseudo-experts pontificating from on high? And as far as being a "near-stub", of the twelve articles remaining in that list, six are shorter than [Cindy] and six are longer. ClairSamoht 07:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Jody CallsThis is an excellent article which has provided an immense amount of knowledge to myself. however, I must take exception to one passage. Let me provide the quote fom your article: "Other sorts of folk songs are less exalted ...In the armed forces, a lively tradition of jody calls are sung while soldiers are on the march." As an ex-soldier of the Australian army, I will take exception to that remark. The only army in the world to use "jody calls" is the American - let me be more precise - the only armed forces to use "jody calls" in the world are the American armed forces. Much to the merriment and cynical comment of myself and my fellow diggers when we first encountered an exhibition thereof. The German army sings marching songs and then shuts up. The English army has a sergeant calling the step "Left. Left. Left, Right, Left" and then the sergeant eventually shuts up. The Australian army justs shuts up The reasons I take exception to your passage are twofold: 1. "In the armed forces" - what and whose armed forces? There a few more armed forces in the world than the american forces. I would appreciate your being more precise. Maybe using this term would be more correct "In the armed forces of the United States of America,..." as this solves the concommitant problems of "whose armed forces" and "which part of America", a rather large land mass situated somewhat to the west of Europe and occupied by more than one sovereign state. 2. The underlying assumption in the article that only the United States of America need be considered is unthinkingly arrogant - a problem I have with many, if not most, of the entries in the Wikipedia. There are other countries in the world, all with their own culture and traditions. The best example of this unthinking arrogance is probably the address of the wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org. Had the wiki been initiated in Australia the address would be http://en.wikipedia.org.au, or in New Zealand, http://en.wikipedia.org.nz or in Germany http://en.wikipedia.org.de. The arrogance in the wiki entries lies along these lines - general discussion of subject as applicable to USA, then sub-sections of the discussion applicable to other countries. Why is the USA treated as special or different to the rest of the world? I must apologise for the vehemence of my remarks. As I said earlier - the article is excellent and has taught me much. Unfortunately, I arced up over the mention of the army. My apologies. John McLaren203.164.193.195 13:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citationsMembers of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 03:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC) [edit] Nut Hill ProductionsI cut the following (somewhat poorly formatted) external link, because it seems premature
I see no indication that those "150 hours of exclusive interviews" are anywhere on their site. If I'm missing something, please elucidate. - Jmabel | Talk 07:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC) [edit] ReferencesThe references were listed by hand. We should make use of the php reference system: Wikipedia:Footnotes. I converted two in-paragraph references to this, but the older references are just a bulleted list with no links to them anywhere in the article. If anyone has any idea what was cited from what, they should go through and mark the citations. Otherwise, we might want to consider moving these to the further reading section. Bjart 05:13, 5 November 2006 (UTC) [edit] Comment in article from anonno real change: I just love the wording. it captures the essence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.210.18.253 (talk • contribs) 06:17, December 3, 2006 [edit] Original researchThis article needs a lot of more of references its looks like Orginal Research at the moment (Gnevin 00:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC))
[edit] Good article Review of GA statusThis article is being reviewed at WP:GA/R for possible delisting of its Good article status. Teemu08 23:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC) [edit] Delisted GASince it's been technically warned for about 5 months and its still quite un-good, I think that was more than a fair amount of time to expect changes, and i've delisted this article. Homestarmy 17:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC) i love folk music but where exactly did it originate —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.240.114.89 (talk • contribs) 11 March 2007.
[edit] LongThis article is extremely long and dense. I would take inspiration from printed encyclopedias in editing this down to a size that makes it usable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Random task (talk • contribs) 21 March 2007. [edit] Major changes to World, Folk, Roots, and Traditional music pagesHi all. I think the pages for World music, Roots music, Folk music, and Traditional music need some changes. I've documented the ideas at Wikipedia:WikiProject World music/Definitions; if you could all respond on the talk page, that would be great! -- TimNelson 04:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC) [edit] Yuck.This article is just a mess. —Gaff ταλκ 08:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC) [edit] "the only singers to recieve an Order Of Canada"It says in the article "Simultaneous to the American folk movement was the Canadian folk movement, exemplified by artists Gordon Lightfoot, Leonard Cohen, and Joni Mitchell, all three of whom would become the only singers to receive an Order of Canada, and all of whom would achieve varying degrees of lasting international success." I thought K.D Lang (also a singer) has got an Order Of Canada? There may be others too? Beckyramone 17:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC) [edit] East Europe and BalkansThe East Europe and Balkans part is pure nonsence. Music of Southeastern Europe says: The music of the Slavic countries of southeastern Europe is quite significantly different to that the music of Eastern Europe, which includes the Slavic states of the former USSR. The latter was much more influenced by the common eastern Slavic culture, notably by Kievan Rus and more recently the USSR. What the Music of Bosnia and Herzegovina or Music of Montenegro or Music of Republic of Macedonia, which btw are not mentioned in the subsection at all, have incommon with the music of Belarus or Ukraine?! This is nonsence. The Balkan sound is dystinctive, its a story of its own. Dzole 12:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC) and the United Nation's webpage: Composition of macro geographical (continental) regions, geographical sub-regions, and selected economic and other groupings count most of the Balkan countries as belonging to South Europe or Southeastern Europe. Dzole 12:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I think groups like Mazowsza or Ślansk from Poland need to be mentioned as notable examples of "State-approved" folklore, using clothes, songs and dances from folklore but with classical singing styles. I think it is also important to mention the "post-folklore" movement which seeks to return to more "authentic" forms. Also... isn't Bulgaria in the Balkans? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.13.39.98 (talk) 21:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC) [edit] Enrico CarusoThere are two links to Enrico Caruso sound files. I will delete them unless somebody comes up with good reasons for keeping them in this article. Ogg (talk) 14:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC) Nobody has spoken up in favour of them so I have deleted the two Caruso sound files. Ogg (talk) 11:58, 6 January 2008 (UTC) [edit] VolkThe translation Volk (meaning people or nation) is incorrect. The word Volk simply means many. It was originally used in an agglutinative form to discribe a large number of individuals which are connected through a collective criteria. It's like saying volk of wikipedians instead of lots of wikipedians or volk of writers instead of lots of writers. The meaning is different to people or nation.--90.187.143.116 (talk) 22:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC) [edit] OthersShouldn't Peter Paul and Mary and many others have more complete writeups? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.226.95.7 (talk) 06:30, 11 April 2008 (UTC) [edit] Mass popularity came with electric folk?"Folk didn’t hit any kind of mass popularity until the electric folk movement of Fairport Convention, The Byrds and Steeleye Span took old songs and mixed their tunes with rock." This doesn't make sense. Firstly, if it is only referring to UK groups, why are the Byrds mentioned? If it is referring to the US and the UK, it contradicts info earlier in the article about the emerging popularity of folk groups in the US, and anyway in the early sixties Bob Dylan, Joan Baez and others on the American folk scene were immensely popular, not to mention Simon and Garfunkel, etc. Also, the Byrds became famous through their Dylan covers. This paragraph should be re-written in the folk-rock context or removed. Hohenloh (talk) 15:09, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
To be able to make sense the statement would need to have had the terms "mass", "popularity", "electric", "old", and "rock" defined. The statement itself fails to do so. Hyacinth (talk) 22:06, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Reworded to be specific to UK. - Jmabel | Talk 21:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC) I made a further clarification to this. Donovan Leitch (sp?) had a number of hits in the UK before "electric folk" came on the scene and he was considered a "folk" artist. There may have been others. Was Nick Drake considered a folkie?Hohenloh (talk) 13:36, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Seth Lakeman link--advertizing?That link looks like it shouldn't belong here.Hohenloh (talk) 15:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC) [edit] The blending of folk and popular genresThe section on the blending of folk and popular genres seems a bit over-focused on the U.S. and Western Europe and on recent times. The 19th century Mexican song "Cielito Lindo" presents an earlier example of a song of known authorship (and operatic influence) that passed into the folk culture. Come to think of it, "Greensleeves" is a far earlier example, and I bet there are many other examples from Tudor England. Further, while it's not an area where I have any particular expertise, I'm sure one could find a lot of examples from Africa, and much of the history of blues seems to me to ride the line between a folk and a popular form: the popular side is presumably obvious, but think of the endlessly recycled melodies and chord progressions with only minor variations, and the constant borrowing of lyrical phrases ("Woke up one morning", "Some folks say the [fill-the-blank] blues ain't bad", etc) and even entire verses. Nothing citable here offhand (other than "Cielito Lindo" and "Greensleeves") but I think this suggests a direction someone might want to take some of this article. - Jmabel | Talk 16:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC) [edit] Conflation"Thus, in the 1960s such singers as Baez, Dylan, Phil Ochs, and Tom Paxton, followed in Guthrie's footsteps and to begin writing "protest music" and topical songs, particularly against the Vietnam War…" Dylan's protest period was pretty much over before the Vietnam War really figured in the American consciousness. He wrote some excellent anti-war songs, but I cannot think of any specific to the Vietnam War. Baez sang a lot of songs about the war, but did she write any? I can think of only one Paxton song about the war ("Talking Vietnam Pot Luck Blues"). Ochs did write more about Vietnam; at least "Talking Vietnam Blues", "White Boots Marching in a Yellow Land" and - sort of about the war - "Draft Dodger Rag" and "I Ain't Marching Anymore". Still, all of these wrote and sang more about anti-war and anti-militarism in general than about Vietnam (Dylan's "Masters of War" is a towering example) and all but Paxton wrote or sang a lot of songs related to the African-American civil rights struggle (Paxton probably wrote at least one song in that vein, but nothing leaps to mind). Especially for Dylan, civil rights would stand out over the Vietnam War as a topic. None of this is to say that there weren't a lot of American folk or folkie songs about the Vietnam War, but other than Ochs these are not the main individuals who wrote them. Malvina Reynolds wrote a bunch, and Pete Seeger wrote several (notably "The Big Muddy" and "Last Train to Nuremberg"). - Jmabel | Talk 21:05, 1 August 2008 (UTC) [edit] Mr. FoxI like Mr. Fox, have what I think are their only two LPs and all that, but are they really important enough to mention here? If we want to name some semi-knowns out of the electric folk world, I'd be more inclined to mention Five Hand Reel or Malicorne since that would broaden the geographic scope. - Jmabel | Talk 21:17, 1 August 2008 (UTC) Mr Fox are generally classiced as electric folk, which is a subgenre of folk rock. I plan to clean up their biography and include more of them in the electric folk article. They were probably not significant enough to appear in this main article.--Sabrebd (talk) 22:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC) [edit] "Traditional Music" section needs editingHow can: Grammy Awards fit under Tradtional Music? This needs correction.Hohenloh (talk) 23:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC) [edit] External linksIs filling up with advertizing.Hohenloh (talk) 14:23, 7 August 2008 (UTC) [edit] Clean-up timeBravely, and probably foolishly, I plan to do a clean-up of this article and Traditional music, taking into account the points above where possible, adding citations and trying to place material in the right article. If you have any points you think need to be addressed in such a process please let me know here. I will give some time before beginning so that this can be done fairly.--Sabrebd (talk) 11:12, 24 March 2009 (UTC) [edit] This article looked better in April 2005Look here. How much clearer the introduction is! Folk music, in the original sense of the term, is music by and of the people. Folk music arose, and best survives, in societies not yet affected by mass communication and the commercialization of culture. It normally was shared and performed by the entire community (not by a special class of expert performers), and was transmitted by word of mouth. Now, the introduction is messy, leaves out the essential definition, and for some reason ends with a random list of American and English folk musicians. And then, the 2005 version has a great, long section about The decline of folk traditions in modern societies which is entirely absent from the article today. This is the information that I was looking for, and did not find in the current version. If I didn't know better (and I'm not sure I do), I'd say that four years of improvements by editors with the best intentions in mind have in reality made the article substantially worse. Esn (talk) 03:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Assembling citations on the definition of folk musicRonald D. Cohen Folk music: the basics (CRC Press, 2006), pp. 1-2 and includes the following: "...we have to include in our story not only the development and collection of old songs, with no known composers, but also labor songs of the nineteenth century broadsides ... singer song-writers, such as Donovan and Bob Dylan, who emerged in the 1960s and much more." [edit] scholesPoints from Percy Scholes, The Oxford Companion to Music, OUP 1977, article "Folk Song".
[edit] end scholesJohann Gottfried Herder To promote his concept of the Volk, he published letters and collected folk songs. These latter were published in 1773 as Voices of the People in Their Songs (Stimmen der Völker in ihren Liedern). quote from above Texts not consulted in this article include (to name a few of the most egregious ommissions):
I won't even mention David Evans, Robert Palmer, Bill Ferris, and Jeff Todd Titon. People interested in this topic should consult all of these first. Some Trotskyite Marxist writers (notably Dave Harker and his followers) have claimed that "People like Lloyd, MacColl and, Lomax and Seeger in America, were somewhat eager to portray the rural idealism of some imagined past community" but a careful examination of their writings does not support this claim. See C.J. Bearman's "Who Were The Folk" for a careful examination of this question. Eric Hobsbawn "the invention of tradition" Benjamin Filene's 2000 book, Romancing the Folk opens with an encomium to Harker. Filene sees folk music as a 'construct" of folksong scholars as "elitists," implying, without actually coming out and saying so, that they financially exploited of the subjects of their study by collecting their songs and writing about them. Nevermind that contrarians Zora Neale Hurston and John A. Lomax nevertheless socialized exclusively with progressives Filene, who has a PH.D. degree in American Studies (not music) from Yale, has written that he dislikes folk music: and he also despises the New Deal. He is currently employed as a " historian at the University of North Carolina in Greensboro. Romancing the Folk was acclaimed by rock critic Robert Cristgau in a review in the NY Times Sunday (12, 10, 2000) Book Review section, which savaged Francis James Child, Cecil Sharp, and the Lomaxes as condescending racists and exploiters. Cristgau-style attacks have been repeated by his friend, Dave Marsh and by others, in the pages of the NY Times, the Chicago Tribune, and elsewhere. end quote from page Main article: Traditional music Charles Seeger (1980) describes three contemporary defining criteria of folk music:[1]
Folk songs are commonly seen as songs that express something about a way of life that exists now or existed in the past or about to disappear (or in some cases, to be preserved or somehow revived). Gene Shay, co-founder and host of the Philadelphia Folk Festival, defined folk music in an April 2003 interview by saying: "In the strictest sense, it's music that is rarely written for profit. It's music that has endured and been passed down by oral tradition. [...] Also, what distinguishes folk music is that it is participatory—you don't have to be a great musician to be a folk singer. [...] And finally, it brings a sense of community. It's the people's music."[cite this quote] endquote "Folk music is usually seen as the authentic expression of a way of life now past or about to disappear (or in some cases, to be preserved or somehow revived). Unfortunately, despite the assembly of an enormous body of work over some two centuries, there is still no unanimity on what folk music (or folklore, or the folk) is." (Middleton 1990, p.127) Sharp, Cecil. Folk Song: Some Conclusions. 1907. Charles River Books Karpeles, Maud. An Introduction to English Folk Song. 1973. Oxford. Oxford University Press. English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians. Collected by Cecil J. Sharp. Ed. Maud Karpeles. 1932. London. Oxford University Press. Middleton, Richard (1990/2002). Studying Popular Music. Philadelphia: Open University Press. ISBN 0335152759. Seeger, Charles (1980). Cited in Middleton (2002) from Traditional music [edit] redactionFolk Music, Folk Song and Folk Dance are comparatively recent expressions, being extensions of the term Folk lore, coined in 1846 by the antiquary William Thoms to describe "the traditions, customs, and superstitions of the uncultured classes",[2] the German expression Volk, in the sense of "the people as a whole" having being applied to popular and national music by Johann Gottfried Herder and the German Romantics over half a century previously.[3] A literary interest in the popular ballad was not new: it dates back to Thomas Percy and William Wordsworth. English Elizabethan and Stuart composers had often evolved their music from folk themes, the classical suite was based upon stylised folk-dances and Franz Josef Haydn's use of folk melodies is noted. But the emergence of the term "folk" coincided with an "outburst of national feeling all over Europe" that was particularly strong at the edges of Europe, where national identity was most asserted. Nationalist composers emerged in Eastern Europe, Russia, Scandinavia, Spain and Britain: the music of Dvorak, Smetana, Grieg, Rimsky-Korsakov, Brahms, Liszt, de Falla, Wagner, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams, Bartok and many others drew upon folk melodies. The English term "folklore", to describe traditional music and dance, entered the vocabulary of many continental European nations, each of which had its folk-song collectors and revivalists.[4] However, despite the assembly of an enormous body of work over some two centuries, there is still no certain definition of what folk music (or folklore, or the folk) is.[5] Folk music may tend to have certain characteristics[6] but it cannot clearly be differentiated in purely musical terms. One meaning often given is that of "old songs, with no known composers"[7], another is that of music that has been submitted to an evolutionary "process of oral transmission.... the fashioning and re-fashioning of the music by the community that give it its folk character."[8] Such definitions depend upon "(cultural) processes rather than abstract musical types...", upon "continuity and oral transmission...seen as characterizing one side of a cultural dichotomy, the other side of which is found not only in the lower layers of feudal, capitalist and some oriental societies but also in 'primitive' societies and in parts of 'popular cultures'."[9] For Scholes,[10] as for Cecil Sharp and Bela Bartok,[11] there was a sense of the music of the country as distinct from that of the town. Folk music was already "seen as the authentic expression of a way of life now past or about to disappear (or in some cases, to be preserved or somehow revived),"[12] particulary in "a community uninfluenced by art music"[13] and by commercial and printed song. Lloyd rejected this in favour of a simple distinction of economic class[14] yet for him too folk music was, in Charles Seeger's words, "associated with a lower class in societies which are culturally and socially stratified, that is, which have developed an elite, and possibly also a popular, musical culture." In these terms folk music may be seen as part of a "schema comprising four musical types: 'primitive' or 'tribal'; 'elite' or 'art'; 'folk'; and 'popular'."[15] But the distinction between this "authentic" folk and national and popular song in general has always been loose, particularly in America and Germany[16] - for example popular songwriters such as Stephen Foster may be termed "folk" in America.[17] The International Folk Music Council definition allows that the term "can also be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten, living tradition of a community. But the term does not cover a song, dance, or tune that has been taken over ready-made and remains unchanged."[18] However the post World War 2 folk revival in America and in Britain brought a new meaning to the word. The popularity of "contemporary folk" recordings caused the appearance of the category "Folk" in the Grammy Awards of 1959: in 1970 the term was dropped in favour of "Best Ethnic or Traditional Recording (including Traditional Blues)", while 1987 brought a distinction between "Best Traditional Folk Recording" and "Best Contemporary Folk Recording". In the proliferation of popular music genres, some music became categorised as "World music" and "Roots music", while the term "folk", by the start of the 21st century, could cover "singer song-writers, such as Donovan and Bob Dylan, who emerged in the 1960s and much more".[19] [edit] Defining characteristicsFrom a historical perspective, folk music had these characteristics:
Before the twentieth century, ordinary farm workers and factory workers were illiterate. They acquired songs by memorising them. Primarily, it is not mediated by books, recorded or transmitted media. Singers may extend their repertoire using broadsheets, song books or CDs, but these secondary enhancements are of the same character as the primary songs experienced in the flesh.
It was culturally particular - from a particular region or culture. In the context of an immigrant group, folk music acquires an extra dimension for social cohesion. It is particularly conspicuous in the United States, where Polish-Americans, Irish-Americans and Asian-Americans strive to emphasise differences from the mainstream. They will learn songs and dances that originate in the countries where their grandparents came from.
On certain days of the year, such as Easter, May Day and Christmas hoe, particular songs celebrate the yearly cycle. Weddings, birthdays and funerals may also be noted with songs, dances and special costumes. Religious festivals often have a folk music component. Choral music at these events brings children and non-professional singers to participate in a public arena, giving an emotional bonding that is unrelated to the aethetic qualities of the music. As a side-effect, the following characteristics are sometimes present:
There are hundreds of songs from the nineteenth century have known authors. However, they have continued in oral tradition, to the point where they are classified as "Traditional", for purposes of music publishing. This has become much less frequent since the 1970s. Today, almost every folk song that is recorded is credited with an arrangement e.g. "Trad arr Dylan".
In the same way that people can have a mixed background, with parents originating in different continents, so too music can be a blend of influences. A particular rhythmic pattern, or a characteristic instrument, is enough to give a traditional feel to music, even when it has been composed recently. It is easy to recognise the presence of a bagpipe or a tabla in a piece of music. The young are usually much less offended by the dilution or adaptation of songs this way. Equally an electric guitar can be added to an old song. It is a matter of personal taste as to whether this is an enhancement to the music, or a cheap gimmick. The relevant factors may include instrumentation, tunings, voicings, phrasing, subject matter, and even production methods.
Celebrations of cultural identity are occasionally performed without any profit motive. The absence of financial reward for the organiser was much more common in the past.
[edit] Multiple IssuesI've applied a multiple issues template that addresses what I see as the article's major problems. For some specifics:
I'm not exactly sure what to suggest as remedies, but I'll try. A total reorganization and rewrite would help, including the identification of sub-topics, each of which would need to be developed as separate sections. The US-UK chauvinism issue also needs to be put to rest, but can only be if editors are willing to set aside their prejudices. Finally, I believe that citations should be required, and in case that isn't clear, I mean they should be mandatory. Without verifiability, anybody can add anything, editors cannot edit what's been added, and readers cannot be assured of what they read. Allreet (talk) 07:32, 22 June 2009 (UTC) Hello Alreet! Your points:
[edit] Pastiche and parodyWhat is the purpose of this section? It just seems like a random list. Dlabtot (talk) 05:39, 16 July 2009 (UTC) It is! I lately cut it down, but did not want to chop it summarily. Redheylin (talk) 22:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC) [edit] Quote at beginning"Every form of vocal and instrumental music we possess has developed out of folk song or dance." Is this really necessary to be in the article? PotentialDanger (talk) 06:19, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Breton musicI put Breton music alongside Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Cornish and Manx musics where it should be. There is no references about supposely "significant studies" and I would be surprise to know how some researchers can agreed to recognize Welsh, Cornish and Manx musics closer than Gallician or Breton to Irish and Scottish music (or they should include english folk). If one differenciation can be made, it's only for those last two who practicized, kept and developped strong musical cultures with lot of common points to become specific from the rest of Europe. To finally be the main roots of the modern celtic music, mostly a commercial classification. Traditionnal welsh music had a long time ago developed in a completely different way until a romantic revival in 19th century. To be honest, I have no idea of what Cornish and Manx music are, I guess it could have known the same romantic revival. The only thing that could define a celtic culture today, is the language. Welsh is the only one which will surely survive in an extent daily use, difficult to say so in Ireland, Scotland, isle of Man and Brittany. Cornish resisted a lot but not anymore.In Gallicia, if it ever existed, it's dead since the Roman invasion. Telling that, in "modern celtic music", Breton music is even closer to Irish and Scottish music than the others "celtic nations" regarding how much it picked up from those since the 19th century but keeping its specificities. To not only fix on a liguistic point of view, on a musicologic one, let's take the example of Breton music older than the 19th century. Kan an diskan, vocal music, so based on lyrics and not instrument. For sure, it is really specific to Brittany, no traces in other celtic nation. It is in Breton. The language defined its musicality, it would never have been the same in a different language. And Breton is a celtic language. So some researchers can try to figure out in tones and rythmes what is specific from a culture, but it is simple as that. Or don't speak about celtic music for trad/folk music from I-S-W-C-M-B. Just for the modern wave which now does exist anyway (with english probably being the main language). Or let's try to find another term. Finnis terrae music? That could include our gallician friends! Sorry for the poor english! ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.67.140.232 (talk) 20:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC) Sorry not being a Wikipedia user, I don't know how to do what I request. Reading the reaction on "Breton room" and the "citation needed" about Alan Stivell's international recognition, I though about the fact his "Live at the Olympia" have been cited by Rolling Stone magazine as one of the best live ever and his "Chemin de terre" as one of the best album of his year by Melody Maker magazine. I also noticed than, moreover the one in the text, a link to Folk irish music appear at the top but none for the others "celtic" musics. I know some Irish people don't like to see their music classified as "celtic" thinking it's putting what it the base in a common one. It is of course a supposition, it was probably not in the user's mind. But it's not nice for others celtic musicians who liked that much Irish music that they decided to pick up a lot from it (or not)! ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.67.140.232 (talk) 20:43, 6 October 2009 (UTC) [edit] Eastern Europe and The Balkans againI dont understand why you insist of merging these two different things. It was all well explained long time ago, see: Talk:Folk_music#East_Europe_and_Balkans —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.126.250.84 (talk) 19:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC) Categories: Wikipedia level-3 vital articles in Art | Wikipedia B-Class vital articles in Art | Wikipedia B-Class level-3 vital articles | B-Class Roots music articles | Top-importance Roots music articles | Roots music articles needing infoboxes | WikiProject Roots music articles | B-Class music genre articles | WikiProject Music genres articles | Delisted good articles | Articles to be included in Wikipedia 0.7 | B-Class vital articles | B-Class core topic supplement articles | B-Class Version 0.7 articles | Arts Version 0.7 articles | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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