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| | This article is within the scope of multiple WikiProjects. Click [show] for further details. |  | This article is part of WikiProject Fascism, an attempt to better organize and unify articles relating to the fascist ideology, its impact on history and present-day organizations closely linked to both of these (ideology and history). See project page, and discussion. This article may be listed on an index of fascist movements or people. Such listing may be controversial; feel free to contribute to discussions there. The presence of this Talk page-only template only implies that the subject is of interest to the associated WikiProject. | | | |  | This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks. | |  B | This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. | | High | This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. | | |  | This article is within the scope of WikiProject Italy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on Italy on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks. | | | B | This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. | | High | This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. | | |  | This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Philosophy, which collaborates on articles related to philosophy. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details. | | | B | This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. | | Mid | This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. | | | | |  | This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Sociology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks. | | | B | This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. | | Mid | This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. | | | |  | This talk page is automatically archived by MiszaBot I. Any sections with no replies in 10 days are automatically moved. Sections without timestamps are not archived. |  | This is a controversial topic that may be under dispute. Please discuss substantial changes here before making them, making sure to supply full citations when adding information, and consider tagging or removing uncited/unciteable information. |  | Please be neutral when editing this highly sensitive article. It discusses a topic about which people have diverse opinions. |  | This is not a forum for general discussion of Fascism. Any such messages will be deleted or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Fascism at the Reference desk, discuss relevant Wikipedia policy at the Village pump, or ask for help at the Help desk. | [edit] Perpetual race conflict I removed the following sentence, which I thought was too prominent in the lead. It needs better sourcing, IMO (the source provided showed that it reflected the opinion of at least one notable fascist - I'm sure he is not alone, but "fascists believe..." needs supporting with a source that says that). - Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in conflict against the weak.
Cheers. --FormerIP (talk) 00:24, 22 November 2009 (UTC) [edit] Fascism also Nationalism? Id Facism a part of Nationalism or are both different?AMMOI (talk) 02:28, 13 December 2009 (UTC) - These issues are discussed in the Nationalism and Fascism articles. Please note talk pagea are for the discussion of the improvement of articles rather than for general discussion. The Four Deuces (talk) 03:49, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
- As a short answer, Nationalism is found in Fascist nations, but it is also found in non-Fascist nations. In point of fact, most nations are Nationalist in one sense or another. Collect (talk) 12:28, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Should have section on Hungarian Arrow Cross http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_Cross_Party I will try to do myself when I have some time, but anyone else please feel free to do so in the meantime. Historian932 (talk) 07:14, 15 December 2009 (UTC) - Interesting topic, though it appears to have been quite as much socialist as fascist in its origins. Its existence from 1944 on when it was a Quisling party for Hungary appears more dictated by the Germans than by Hungarians under German occupation. The advent of the Communist dictatorship after WWII was a matter of some import as well, especially with the deliberate destabilization of the Hungarian currency. Probably better suited in an article on "Nazi collaborationist parties" than here, as it differs in a great many particulars from the other forms listed (vide it was not particularly nationalist, did not promote any wars of expansion, did not seek a return of former glory, was both stridently anti-capitalist and anti-communist at the same time, was strongly religious, was not authoritarian as Hungary was under German control etc.) Collect (talk) 12:59, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
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- There was previously a section about them, but it was taken out, along with some others. Not because it wasn't felt to be appropriate, but because it was felt that the article was too long. I'd favour re-arranging the variations and subforms with much less information about a greater number of political movements, and "see main article" links. --FormerIP (talk) 13:15, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
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- Since there were dozens of fascist parties throughout the world during the period, there is insufficient room to devote mention to all of them. It might be helpful to have a list in the article for readers who want to know more about fascism in specific countries. Collect, where are you getting your information? The Four Deuces (talk) 13:56, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Upon seeing the post above, I started reading -- hit about a dozen books, and read mayber 20K words on the topic. Only took an hour or so. Why do you ask? Maintaining a List of fascist parties is likely to be a POV problem, but might be feasible. Collect (talk) 14:04, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
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- (ec)Another problem was that movements not even remotely connected to Fascism were listed as well. I suggest, instead, that an article on "WW II Collaborationist Parties" would be more accurate for readers. The current article is one of the longest in all of WP already, though shorter than it was fairly recently at 158K placing it well up the list. A year back or so it was well under 100K. WP recommendations are to try keeping articles under 100K to be sure. Collect (talk) 14:04, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
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- Yes, but if the material that's there now were removed and a shorter version or list were put in instead, that would be fewer KB. I don't recall any movements not even remotely connected to fascism being in there. --FormerIP (talk) 14:23, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
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- The POV problem could be whether the Falange and French collaborationists were really fascist, but a section title could be written that is NPOV. Collect, I was asking because you said "it appears to have been quite as much socialist as fascist in its origins", The Four Deuces (talk) 14:56, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
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- Surely, we already know by now that fascism was influenced by the left as well as the right. --FormerIP (talk) 15:01, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
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- That is the "consensus" theory, but they categorize only Germany and Italy as having true fascist parties. Far right groups in the rest of Europe usually had no left-wing influence, which is why they were not true fascists. This Hungarian group appears to have no socialist origins at all, which is why I asked Collect where he found this information. The Four Deuces (talk) 15:20, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
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- No, what I meant by that is that if fascism was influenced by the left as well as the right, then a party being alleged to be "as much socialist as fascist in its origins" is perfectly consisent with it being a fascist party. It would be as fascist as, say, the Partito Nazionale Fascista. In any event, what we would go off would be sources, rather than arguments.--FormerIP (talk) 15:40, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- (ec)Try Mann [1] page 256 for the Arrow Cross sitting on the left and organizing worker's strikes. Frucht [2] page 376 states the populists wanted a "third road" "a peculiar Hungarian version of socialism that was national but not fascist." Deak et al [3] states "it was impossible clearly to separate Right from Left" at that time, and that the Arrow Cross party was popular with miners and heavy industrial workers for its role in promoting strikes. From a number of sources, the primary characteristic of the Arrow Cross Party appears to be similar to the Norwegian "National Government". Collect (talk) 15:55, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
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- Okay, so like the Italian Fascist Party and the German National Socialist Party, they appear to have some of their origins on the left. --FormerIP (talk) 15:57, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Precisely. A substantial part, in fact. Collect (talk) 16:16, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- ...which is no more reason to exclude them from the article than it is a reason to exclude the Nazis or the Italian Fascists..? --FormerIP (talk) 16:20, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
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- If and only if all parties viewed as collaborationist also get lumped in with fascists. There is a real concern that the primary basis for linking it specifically as fascist lies with the Soviet rule of Hungary after the war. No basic tenets of fascism as defined in the current article seem to apply to it -- including nationalism (it was under the thumb of foreigners), expansionism (Hungary did not have such in its history), irredentism (not applicable really), racial unity (the main anti-Semitism was either pre-existing, or imposed by foreigners. the Magyar are not [articularly "Aryan"), economics (which were more socialist in Hungary than any other "fascist" nation by quite a bit), religion (no difference really between it and other groups in Catholic Hungary), and so forth. A remarkable sort of fascism to have precisely one and only one thing in common with fascism - it was dominated by the Germans. Collect (talk) 22:30, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
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- The only relevant question, though, is whether it is considered fascist by reputable RSs. I wonder if anyone has ever been here before trying to compile encyclopedic information about them? I wonder what the second word they would use to describe them might be? ([4]) --FormerIP (talk) 22:44, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Ku Klux Klan What about creating a section on the Ku Klux Klan, as they were American Fascists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.180.61.194 (talk) 21:24, 17 December 2009 (UTC) - Actually the KKK was not fascist -- as it antedated Mussolini by a half century or so, never was a political party, had no economic positions of any note, had no particular connection with an enforced unity of the populace (indeed, they promoted disunity), nothing to do with expansionism of a nation, etc. In short -- putting it in here is not too likely. Nor is the BNP here. Nor a few thousand other groups where "fascist" is used more as a pejorative than anything else. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Collect (talk • contribs) 03:44, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
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