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Start – May 2007

Contents 1 Archive 1.1 Historical credentials 1.2 Popular Culture 2 Deleted info 3 Synopsis 4 Song lists 5 Fair use rationale for Image:Pattiluponeevita.jpg 6 Fair use rationale for Image:Mandypatinkinche.jpg 7 Title Roles 8 Succession Boxes 9 Che 10 Source material

[edit] Archive

I have archived all conversations prior to May 2007. - [[ I have edited the article to comply with WP:MT's Article Structure guidelines. Yes, it still need a fair amount of work. For the time being, I haven't found a way to incorporate certain elements (I will, though - don't worry!). Mainly for my own peace of mind, I've copied them here...

[edit] Historical credentials

See also: Che Guevara in popular culture

“

'Che as well as Evita symbolize certain naïve, but effective, beliefs: the hope for a better world; a life sacrificed on the altar of the disinherited, the humiliated, the poor of the earth. They are myths which somehow reproduce the image of Christ.'[1]

”

The everyman-styled narrator of the musical is identified simply as 'Che' and is based partially upon the historical figure of Che Guevara, a native Argentinian who opposed the Perón regime.

In the original productions of the musical, Che and Evita have a confrontation in the song "Waltz for Eva and Che". There is no evidence to suggest that Che Guevara and Eva Perón actually ever met. The only alleged contact that Guevara ever had with Perón was a letter he claimed to have sent to her charity, requesting a jeep; Guevara claimed that it was never received, and is also said to have joined a Peronist youth organisation in college, though only to gain access to their library.

After leaving Peronist Argentina in the mid-1950s, Guevara moved to Cuba. As Castro's collaborator, he came to occupy a position in Cuba's government arguably analogous to Evita's role in Peronist Argentina: that of spiritual leader. In the song "Waltz for Eva and Che", the character of Evita makes a reference to Guevara's future role in Castro's Cuba: 'So go, if you're able/To somewhere unstable/And stay there/Whip up your hate/In some tottering state/But not here, dear/Is that clear, dear?'^[2]

The lyrics and storyline of the musical are based on Mary Main's biography Evita: The Woman with the Whip, which drew heavily upon the accounts of anti-Peronist Argentines. Shortly after the musical appeared, Nicholas Fraser and Marysa Navarro published a more neutral account of Eva Perón's life, titled Evita: The Real Lives of Eva Perón, in which they claim that many of Main's assertions (which had influenced Rice's lyrics) were false, such as the suggestion that Eva had first gone to Buenos Aires as the mistress of a married musician, Agustín Magaldi. Instead, they wrote, Eva's mother Doña Juana had taken her there whenever she aspired to become a radio actress. Many people suggested that Rice's lyrics disparaged Evita's achievements unnecessarily, particularly her charity work.

[edit] Popular Culture

The episode of The Simpsons ("The President Wore Pearls") has a plot loosely based on the musical, including parodies of songs such as, "Don't cry for me, kids of Springfield," a parody of "Don't Cry for me Argentina." Also at the end they display a disclaimer saying "On the advice of our lawyers, we swear we have never heard of a musical based on the life of Eva Perón".

[edit] Deleted info

A lot of info was deleted from this article today. Can someone explain the deletions, please? -- Ssilvers 01:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, did you mean to put back in the stuff you copied out above? Sorry if I am jumping the gun. -- Ssilvers 01:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I did a copy edit on the section. Hope it helps. -- Ssilvers 14:25, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Synopsis

The synopsis should not be a bullet-pointed list; it should be a narrative plot summary, mentioning the songs where they occur in the story. See the article structure page at WP:MUSICALS -- Ssilvers 00:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I put the bullet-list in paragraph form; it's just 2 block paragraphs,though, so it needs some work.MarianKroy (talk) 15:54, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Good job. I streamlined it a little and broke the big paragraphs into more bite-size chunks. Note that plot synopses don't need to say "Bill sings to Annette about...." They can just say "Bill tells Annette about...." Thanks for all the great work. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:18, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Song lists

The article should have only one song list. The album's song list should be in a separate article about the album. Any differences between the Broadway song list and subsequent song list should simply be footnoted. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:18, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The song list should also note which characters sing each song. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Pattiluponeevita.jpg

Image:Pattiluponeevita.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 16:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Mandypatinkinche.jpg

Image:Mandypatinkinche.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 16:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Title Roles

I don't think this section is necessary. All of the information in it is repetitive, and it is full of non-notable names. Unless someone has a reason to keep it, let's delete it and just mention the actresses in connection with the major productions described above. There are lots of musicals with a dominant female character: Hello, Dolly!, Mame, My Fair Lady, Eileen, Annie, Thoroughly Modern Millie, No, No, Nanette, Peter Pan (LOL), Maid of the Mountains, etc, and none of them need a section like this. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Succession Boxes

Do we need all these succession boxes? -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Che

In the part of the article on Controversy, the character Che is equated to Che Guervera, the cuban revolutionary. This is simply incorrect. "Che" in the current form of the show, refers to the spirit of dissent in Argentina during the time of the Peronist Regime. Lloyd Webber and Rice never claim that Guevera was present. 02:35, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not following you. There is no "Controversy" section in the article Evita (musical). In the "History" section, the article states that "there is no evidence to suggest that Ché Guevara and Eva Perón actually ever met." Ché in the musical is a fictionalized representative of, as you say, dissenters to the Peronist regime. The article makes clear that the musical departs from historical fact in a number of important ways. I think it is clear from the article that Ché is not intended to be the historical Ché Guevara, but an idealized version of a Latin-American revolutionary. Or did I misunderstand your comment? Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 13:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

In the libretto it says clearly that the "Che" in the musical is "Che Guevara." It also says that the Perons were in power during Che's childhood and therefore it is likely that his experience with the Perons influenced his later political activity. It is clear that in the original stage musical it is indeed Che Guevara. Alan Parker writes in the book about the making of the movie version that in the movie version it is NOT the historical Che Guevara but simply a "joe everyman" bystander. In Argentina "Che" is a word synonymous with "dude," and sometimes a type of exclaimation. Andrew Parodi (talk) 07:02, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Source material

This article claims the Mary Main biography The Woman with the Whip was the source material for the musical but does not provide a reference for this allegation. In Sondheim & Lloyd-Webber: The New Musical, author Stephen Citron discusses the development of Evita at length and makes no mention of the Main bio, nor have I seen it cited in other articles about the musical. Does anyone have a reputable source for this claim that can be referenced? If not, shouldn't it be removed? LiteraryMaven (talk) 18:08, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Andrew Parodi has added an alleged reference for the claim Main's bio was a source for the musical, but I don't believe it's accurate or valid. First of all, it reads, "It is the basis of the Evita in the musical Evita," which suggests to me the book is the source of the characterization of the woman rather than the musical itself. I have the posters, programs, and cast recordings from the original London and Broadway productions and the original Australian cast album. None of them list this book as a source for the musical. I would think if it had been then this information would have been included somewhere in the credits. Also, two books about Lloyd Webber I've read make no mention of this book. Both of them say Rice was inspired by a radio play about Eva he heard late one night. Nicholas Fraser and Marysa Navarro may think the book was a source, but that doesn't mean they're correct. LiteraryMaven (talk) 16:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

It does appear that the book served at least as one of the bases for the character Evita. Tim Rice called it the most important biography. See this, this, this, this, and this. The last two are especially persuasive. It appears that the article exaggerates its influence on elements of the musical beyond the characterization of the title role. I would suggest that you try to give it its proper emphasis. I doubt it should even appear in the WP:LEAD. It seems like you have lots of sources, so if you are willing to devote the time, please do go ahead and expand the article into a more complete, better balanced article. For a good example of a really complete musical theatre article, see Hair (musical). I haven't seen it in a while, but last time I looked, Wicked (musical) was a good article also. I would be happy to review whatever you write for proofreading/copy editing when you're done. Just let me know. Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:43, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Tim Rice himself writes in Evita: Legend of Eva Peron [1] that he considers The Woman with the Whip to be the only accurate book about Eva Peron. At any rate, the requirement was simply that I add a citation, which I have done. You may go to the Amazon.com listing and check for yourself to see that Fraser and Navarro indeed state that the musical is based on the Main book. [2] As an editor, this is all that is required of me: to give a citation from a notable and scholarly book. The Fraser/Navarro book is perhaps the most respected biography of Evita available. Thank you. -- Andrew Parodi (talk) 09:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: As the musical Evita is a biographical work of Eva Peron, I have difficulty seeing any difference between "the characterization of the woman" and "the musical itself." The musical itself is a characterization of the woman. Thank you. -- Andrew Parodi (talk) 10:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Tim Rice says he considers The Woman with the Whip to be the only accurate book about Eva Peron, but did he say he used it as the basis of the musical, which would be the likely thing to do if he had? I'm not disputing Fraser and Navarro stated the musical is based on the Main book, I'm just skeptical about their accuracy. Just because their book is perhaps the most respected biography of Evita available doesn't mean they're correct about The Woman with the Whip being the source for the musical. The books I've read about Lloyd Webber and Rice don't mention it, the programs, posters, and recordings don't list it (wouldn't there be a legal obligation to do so?), and in The Making of Evita by the film's director Alan Parker, when he discusses the origin of the stage production, no mention of the Main book is made.

As I said, the odd phrasing of the statement "It is the basis of the Evita in the musical Evita" suggests to me they meant the book is the source of the way the woman is portrayed (maybe a better word than characterized) rather than the musical itself, otherwise why not just say "It is the basis of Evita"? I think the portrayal of the character (i.e., loving, selfish, brutal, emotionally unstrung, amusing, and the like) of any real-life subjects of a film, play, or book can be based on reality while events in which they are placed are fictionalized, so there can be a difference between the person and the film, play, or book about them. I apologize if I'm not explaining myself clearly. Thank you for your input. LiteraryMaven (talk) 17:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, I never inserted into this article that the musical is based on The Woman with the Whip. Someone else inserted that. I inserted the citation when I saw it was requested.

Now, on to the other issue. Yes, I suppose it is possible to differentiate between the characterization of the woman and the overall structure of the musical production itself. According to the statement by Fraser/Navarro, the character of "Evita" in the musical is based on the portrayal of the historical Eva Peron in the Main book. That's all they write.

So, no, they never said "the musical is based on The Woman with the Whip." They said the "Evita" in the musical is based on the "Evita" in The Woman with the Whip.

So, I'm sort of at a loss. Maybe reword the entro if you prefer. Maybe: "The characterization of Eva Peron in the musical "Evita" is based on the characterization of Eva Peron as found in "The Woman with the Whip". This isn't a major point for me, and I don't really have an agenda here. I was just trying to provide a source. I provided that source, and a fellow editor found and verified that source via Google books [3]. I don't know what else to do here. Thanks. -- Andrew Parodi (talk) 06:58, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I hope my recent edit is acceptable to everyone who has participated in this discussion. Thank you. LiteraryMaven (talk) 15:09, 17 December 2008 (UTC)