| This article is within the scope of multiple WikiProjects. Click [show] for further details. |  | This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cryptography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Cryptography on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks. | | | |  | This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks. | |  C | This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale. | | | | This article has not yet been checked against the criteria for B-Class status: | |  Referencing and citation: not checked- Coverage and accuracy: not checked
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| To fill out this checklist, please add the following code to the template call: | b1 <!--Referencing & citations--> = <yes/no> | b2 <!--Coverage & accuracy --> = <yes/no> | b3 <!--Structure --> = <yes/no> | b4 <!--Grammar & style --> = <yes/no> | b5 <!--Supporting materials --> = <yes/no> assessing the article against each criterion. | | | | Mid | This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. | | | | e · h · w · r  To-do: | | - Overview the various indicator procedures (now covered: pre WW2 procedure and WW2 wehrmacht/luftwaffe) Any other know procedure welcome
- Expand subsections on Enigma components in "Description" section
- Add inline references
| | Priority 2 | [edit] External links I adde two additional external links: Cipher Machines & Cryptology and Frode's Crypto Cellar I also want to add two other links that are generally recognized as valuable reference information Tony Sale's Code and Ciphers and The Bletchley Park Trust I suggest to change the link to ellsbury's rotor wirings into the main page: Ellsbury's Enigma and the Bombe which brings a view onto much more information that the few rotor details, already added to wiki in the rotor details spin-off. Any comments pro/contra on all links, mentioned above, welcome... Dirk (talk) 17:36, 2 November 2008 (UTC) - As I have understood it is decided that no simulator links shall be found on this page (as on may other cipher/crypto pages). Would it be ok to mention in the Reference list that Cipher Machines & Cryptology has a good simulator? I guess that quite alot of the people reading about Enigmas would like to try one out.Skarek (talk) 10:58, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Clarification request The following sentence, "During World War II codebooks were used only to set up the rotors and ring settings.", in the paragraph starting with "During World War II" in the Indicators section is unclear to me. I think the intention is to say, "During World War II codebooks were only used to set up the initial rotor settings each day." I may have misunderstood what is meant here, but if so then I am probably not the only one. So I ask whoever is knowledgeable on this topic to clarify it. Soler97 (talk) 10:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC) - During WW2 the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe no longer used an initial setting. Each day, a new rotor combination, ring setting of those rotors and plugboard setting was given in the key sheet. There was no longer an initial setting (message key or ) since the operator selected a random message key, which was enciphered with a random start position. Naval procedures do had a startposition, the Grundstellung, but had a totally different use for them. More here: [1]. I will change that sentence into: "During World War II codebooks were only used each day to set up the rotors, their ring settings and the plugboard.". Does it make it clearer?Dirk (talk) 15:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
- Much better. Thanks. However, I am still a bit unclear on one point. My understanding is that the codebooks gave the initial settings of the Enigma, which were then changed for each message sent that day. If this is correct then please change the sentence to spell this out for people like me, who like things to be laid totally bare. Soler97 (talk) 03:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Not quiet. The internal settings and the plugboard are not the 'initial settings'. The internal settings (choice of rotors, rings and plugboard) were the same all day long, and of course set according to the key sheet. For each message anothe 'intitial' startposition for the rotors was selected.Dirk (talk) 17:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- Could you spell out what exactly the codesheets specified? Are the ring settings and start position of the rotors the same thing? Was the plugboard rewired each day? Soler97 (talk) 02:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
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- The Wehrmacht code sheets contained the selected rotors, the ring setting of the rotors and the plugboard. The ring setting (ringstellung) was NOT the startposition, but the relative position between the internal wiring of the rotor and the alphabet ring with its notch. More details about the rotors on this page The 'start position' or initial start position you are refering to is the actual message key, that is at which letter the rotor was turned at the beginning of the message, and was different to each message. This rotorposition was set manually on the exterior of the machine (and changed the letter in the little window). Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine changed the plugboard each day. The internal settings (rotor selection and ring setting) were changed each day at Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe and changed every two days at the Kriegsmarine. On this page you can view some examples of key sheets. So: Internal settings: the selected rotors and their ring setting - in some cases also the reflector - changed every one or two days. External settings: The plugboard wiring (changed every day) and the rotor position (changed every message).Dirk (talk) 12:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Inventor I have reverted the edit that ascribes the invention of Enigma to Hugo Koch as this is contentious. See for example [2] which says "Many historians have erred in giving credit for the Enigma cipher machine of World War II famed to Hugo Koch and not to the rightful inventor, Arthur Scherbius." and goes on to give substantial evidence in support. TedColes (talk) 05:46, 24 November 2008 (UTC) - Good catch (and I don't even think it's contentious, in that much earlier writing on Enigma just got a lot of facts wrong, and they've since been corrected.) — Matt Crypto 16:59, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Should this movie go in the references? I remember it was part of the movie, recovering a machine, but I havn't seen it in years and can't remember if it really is a major part of the movie. Cs302b (talk) 01:20, 30 November 2008 (UTC) - I haven't watched it for a while either, but I reckon a brief mention would be OK. — Matt Crypto 16:56, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- If this movie is mentioned, it would please people on the eastern side of the Atlantic if there was mention that Hollywood distorted a real event by setting it in 1942 with US Navy personnel. As the Wikpedia article says (U-571 (film)) "The film's plot, though a work of fiction, is partly based on real events. It attracted criticism for two reasons: first, it was British personnel from HMS Bulldog who first captured a naval Enigma machine, from U-110 in the North Atlantic May 1941, before the United States entered the war. Second, German U-boat crews were portrayed in a negative light." TedColes (talk) 18:05, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- Unless the movie claims to portray reality, is the disclaimer necessary? 69.135.185.154 (talk) 01:00, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Admittedly the dividing line between fact and fiction is increasingly being blurred these days, but it is relevant to read one review of this film which says:
If you believe U-571, Jonathan Mostow's submarine action romp set in the murky depths of World War II, the Americans were instrumental in the capture of the Enigma coding devices, used by the Germans to encrypt top secret messages.
The British barely feature in the war effort - it was the good ole Yankee boys leading the way, teaching Hitler a lesson or two with some well-placed torpedoes (the end credits reveal that it was in fact the Brits who captured the Enigma machines and ultimately deciphered the code. Fancy that!).
Such glaring lapses in historical accuracy litter Mostow's film, which throws all character and plot development overboard within the first five minutes and goes full steam ahead for sustained action. I still think it appropriate to avoid the possibility of giving offence in this way.--TedColes (talk) 07:57, 31 July 2009 (UTC) - Maybe, though I'd be more inclined just to mention that the film exists and is based on capturing an Enigma...if a reader wants to find out more, then they can read the full article on U-571, and find out about the inaccuracies there. — Matt Crypto 08:18, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
A new image that may be of some interest: commons:Image:Bundesarchiv Bild 183-2007-0705-502, Chiffriermaschine "Enigma".jpg - a 1943 German photograph of a machine. Shimgray | talk | 19:06, 5 December 2008 (UTC) [edit] Scherbius and Koch discussion I'm not Dutch, but the changes you guys made - deleting Koch - are based on poor historic research and taking for granted just any source. Karl de Leeuw, a Dutch historian already in 2003 proved that the Enigma was invented by two Dutch navy officers, Spengler and van Hengel. Koch, who was working together with Scherbius. There is no doubt about the solid research and sources of this work of historian de Leeuw, which was published in Cryptologia. His work is acknowledged and confirmed by other historians. I understand that some people are a bit bitten in the **** that their version is fiction, and I understand their err. In those days, the patenting of such machines was a very obscure thing, played in the world of intellingence secrets. More here. Do whatever you want with it, but base your actions (deleting/adding stories) on the work and sources of historians, and don't base them on an opinion. Karl de Leeuw on the invention of the Enigma Dirk (talk) 15:37, 19 December 2008 (UTC) - Indeed, Spengler and van Hengel are now known to have come up with the first rotor machines (as far as we know), but that doesn't mean they invented Enigma, which was a specific family of rotor machines. A corrective article on the history of Koch, Scherbius and Enigma was published in Cryptologia also, see [3]. — Matt Crypto 21:19, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
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- Hi Matt, the article you mention is from 1999, the cryptologia article that explains the invention of that machine is from 2003! That later article is a correction of the 1999 article, not the other way around! They did invent the machine. Of course, it was scherbius that named it Enigma, but who named it how is not the discussion. The simple fact is that the machine that was later called Enigma is invented by the two Dutch naval officers. No more no less. Saying that Scherbius made the Enigma is the same as commercialising a DW (Disk with Music) but actually produce a CD. It's not becaus you gave it a name that you invented it.84.197.193.79 (talk) 12:14, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- De Leeuw's paper does not at all, as I read it, claim that Spengler and van Hengel invented Enigma, but rather that they were the first known inventors of a rotor machine. In that sense, they no more invented Enigma than they invented (say) Fialka, SIGABA and KL-7. All these machines are far from being merely rebranded carbon copies of the earliest rotor machines; nor was Enigma, which had a number of patents filed about its specifics. — Matt Crypto 17:46, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
[edit] international I just wondered about the various contry/language specific articles on Enigma, in particular the editing-policy thereof. being myself a german engineer I found that the german page is somewhat quick to remove edits, while the same edits are easily accepted in the other languages for their significance. So do not miss the version checks on wikipedia ! [edit] Plugboard Every unclassified source I am familiar with has indicated that the steckerboard added very little additional cryptographic strength. 143.232.210.46 (talk) 23:59, 8 June 2009 (UTC) - What sources are you reading? — Matt Crypto 06:18, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Where is missing information about that Poles first broke the Enigma? --DumnyPolak (talk) 01:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC) - Cryptanalysis of the Enigma; this article is focused on the machine itself, not the history of its solution. — Matt Crypto 15:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
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- I think the information that the code was broken and by whom is quote important. For your reference, a recent BBC article on the role of Polish mathematicians in breaking the Enigma code: [4] --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reference, although you might recall I'm already fairly well acquainted with the Polish mathematicians' role in breaking Enigma, and I'm enthusiastic that they get the recognition they deserve (for example, I helped get Marian Rejewski to Featured status in part for that reason). My argument here would simply be that there was a lot of history of breaking various Enigma systems by different nationalities, in different times and places -- Poles, French, British, Americans -- and that this colourful history might be better treated in detail in a separate article. — Matt Crypto 19:56, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
- History is very simple, in 1932 three Polish mathematicians for the first time managed to decipher enigma and shared their results with the French and British intelligence service, where works on this machine were continued. I think that you are omitting the most essential fragments of history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.25.200.133 (talk) 13:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
- ...in different times and places -- Poles, French, British, Americans
Americans? What had to do Americans with Enigma? Probably a Hollywood science fiction films about this machine like britisch film ENIGMA with Kate Winslet :-)) - Markus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.25.200.133 (talk) 14:27, 11 September 2009 (UTC) - They made lots of fast bombes, for a start. — Matt Crypto 14:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
[edit] The second paragraph is poorly written, and here's why: It presently reads as follows: - The machine has become well-known because Allied codebreakers were able to decrypt a vast number of messages which had been enciphered using the Enigma. The intelligence gleaned from this source, codenamed ULTRA by the British, was a substantial aid to the Allied war effort. The exact influence of ULTRA is debated, but an oft-repeated assessment is that decryption of German ciphers hastened the end of the European war by two years.
WHAT source??? The second sentence practically contridicts the first sentence because the way it's presently written, no mention has yet been made of the fact that Enigma eventually did fall into Allied hands. It's true that it's mentioned later in the body of the article, but that doesn't alleviate the fact that these sentences don't make sense in their present form. The words this source (emphasis added by me) do not reference what the source is/was. I suggest that between the 1st and 2nd sentences, another on should be added, one that would read, "That changed, however, when Allied forces captured an Enigma machine from the Germans, providing a valuable source of previously secret/classified information to Allied leaders . . . " or words to that effect. Please forgive me if I've added this new topic of discussion incorrectly; I still haven't figured out the procedure, and no one has ever responded to my repeated requests for assistance. Magnet For Knowledge (talk) 03:41, 27 June 2009 (UTC) - Allied reading did not begin "when Allied forces captured an Enigma machine from the Germans." It began seven years before the war, when the Poles first reconstructed the machine on the basis of mathematical analysis and French-supplied intelligence materials. See "Biuro Szyfrów" and "Cryptanalysis of the Enigma." Nihil novi (talk) 04:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- You started the discussion topic just fine. Feel free to drop me a message on my talk page if you've got any questions about editing procedure, or there's the Wikipedia:Help desk. As Nihil novi has pointed out, the decryption of Enigma was not initially a result of capturing a physical device, but of logical and mathematical analysis. (Seizing a physical Naval Enigma did help Bletchley Park in World War II, as the Navy variant had additional security features.) So I don't feel there's any problem with the word "source" as it stands. — Matt Crypto 15:08, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
[edit] The following must be wrong (under Indicators) There is no secret in the following procedure, so an attacker only needs a machine. Somehow there must be a daily code incorporated into the procedure. - During World War II, codebooks were only used each day to set up the rotors, their ring settings and the plugboard. For each message, the operator selected a random start position, let's say WZA, and a random message key, perhaps SXT. He moved the rotors to the WZA start position and encoded the message key SXT. Assume the result was UHL. He then set up the message key, SXT, as the start position and encrypted the message. Next, he transmitted the start position, WZA, the encoded message key, UHL, and then the ciphertext.
Tuntable (talk) 00:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC) - The secret was "the rotors, their ring settings and the plugboard". — Matt Crypto 07:20, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Decoding So how were the messages decoded (assuming one had the codebooks or equivalent)? There should be a bit more on the subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.68 (talk) 15:27, 17 November 2009 (UTC) - Currently we have, "At the receiving end, the operation was reversed. The operator set the machine to the initial settings and typed in the first six letters of the message (XHTLOA). In this example, EINEIN emerged on the lamps. After moving his rotors to EIN, the receiving operator then typed in the rest of the ciphertext, deciphering the message." — Matt Crypto 16:18, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
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- Also see the article Cryptanalysis of the Enigma.--TedColes (talk) 06:22, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
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