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| | | | | [edit] Champagne capitalization Champagne from the Champagne region is a proper noun and protected designation from the European Union. Champagne with a little 'c' is like Korbel's California champagne is the imitation stuff that is not from the Champagne region. For reference, look at the consistent capitalization used by such wine experts as Katherine McNeil in the Wine Bible ISBN 1563054345 as well as these articles from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinal, CNN, Farlax's dictionary entry on Champagne, Wiley wine guide, Champagne mfg themselves use the capitalized Champagne, as well as Wine Spectator. Simply put, in the wine world Champagne wine from France being a proper noun is common and consistent knowledge. The article should reflect that appropriately. AgneCheese/Wine 03:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC) I inserted the following statement, which was quickly removed. As I indicated, I have no authoritative references, but it is factually true: Regardless of the legal requirements for labeling, many consumers regard champaigne as a generic term for white sparkling wines, regardless of origin. The laws described here were intended to reverse this tradition and reserve the term as a designation of origin. The problem is that the EU wants to claim that all other sparkling wines are imitations of champaign (as stated above), which is a matter of point of view, although legally inforceable in the EU. Passing a law does not make something true. I recall that some legislative body passed a law making pi = 3.00 --Zeamays 21:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC) -
- The statement was removed because it was a rather imprecise generalization of the matter but also largely because there wasn't a source. It's a rather touchy subject but at least with a source attached to the statement the curious reader would have a resource to go to for further information. AgneCheese/Wine 01:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Unfortunately blogs don't pass the standards of reliable sources. I'll see if I can find a better source but if not then the text should probably be removed in a few days. AgneCheese/Wine 19:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The French association of champagne-makers also capitalise the word: http://www.champagne.fr/fr_lire_etiquette.html Robma (talk) 17:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC) -
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- A word about the capitalisation of champagne. The OED writes, "champagne: White (esp. sparkling) wine from Champagne". I admit that you can find your French sources that give it as upper-case "C", but the French have wholly different capitalisation protocols from us British. It's the Légion d'honneur after all, while we call it the "Legion of Honour". So I don't think we need to be taking spelling lessons from them. The idea behind using lower-case "c" is, as the OED suggests, to helpfully discriminate between the wine and the region. I say "I love Champagne", but do I mean the region or the bubbly? No one knows if both are UC. As an aside, within British food and wine book publishing, lower-case "c" for the wine is the overwhelming norm. Ericoides (talk) 15:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Copied from my talk Champagne from the Champagne region is a protected name, essentially a brand name like Pepsi or Budweiser (note the capitalization in those articles). In that context it is a proper noun and should be capitalized. When the term "champagne" is being hijacked by producers like Korbel, it becomes a different thing entirely-more a "style" rather than a distinct wine and then it should be lowercase. This is the pattern followed by the vast, vast majority of WP:RS used in wine articles and so it is only proper that Wikipedia continued the correct usage. AgneCheese/Wine 16:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC) - Additional thought The two capitalizations are meant to distinguish between real, authentic (and protected brand name) Champagne and the products of imitators (like Korbel). There is no need to distinguish via capitalization between the wine and the region because people normally use the terms interchangeably anyways (like Bordeaux and Burgundy) to refer to both the wine and the region. When people do need to distinguish between the wine and the region, they normally would add the qualifiers "region" and "wine". AgneCheese/Wine 16:42, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
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- I'd love to have the brazen confidence to disagree with the Oxford English Dictionary, the Collins English Dictionary, the Cassell English Dictionary, the Chambers English Dictionary, etc etc. But what do they know? I chuckle at your talk of 'hijacking' and 'authentic' given that French wine-growers imported root-stock from the US. Terroir you say? As for your analogy, I would say that a more useful analogy would be whisky: whisky is the generic name and Talisker or Highland Park are the brand names; likewise, champagne is the generic name and Heidseck, Moët et Chandon, or Krug are the brand names. Ericoides (talk) 17:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
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- One further thought. Surgeons have to be called Dr in their early career, before they specialise as surgeons, but once they become surgeons they revert to being Mr (or Mrs, or Miss). Mr, usually a humble term, becomes a moniker of distinction. I think it's the same with champagne (may I say I am touched by your attempts to protect its upper-case status). It went through the tedious showing-off phase of being called Champagne, but such is its fame and popularity that it is now honoured with a lower-case "c". (I don't know a thing about RSs, but is a dictionary not the highest court of RS appeal? Just one to ponder.) Ericoides (talk) 17:13, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
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- I think this is just one of those things where there is no definitive "correct" answer, and a judgment just has to be made, based on what predominates out there in the real world, and then you stand by that for consistency's sake. Wine shops for example here in the UK (ranging from high street retailers like Majestic and Oddbins, all the way to the posher merchants like Berry Brothers), all tend to have an upper case C. You can check their websites for this. Books vary - for example the edition of Hugh Johnson's A Life Uncorked that I have (Phoenix/Orion) uses lower case; Robert Joseph's French Wines (Dorling Kindersley) has upper case. I wouldn't want to pick a fight with dictionaries of course, but do they necessarily trump everything else? --Nickhh (talk) 18:18, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
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- Yes, I think they do, as they record spellings (in your words) "based on what predominates out there in the real world". They are the RS par excellence for word spellings. You may set out to research usage in websites and books etc to find which spelling predominates but this counts as OR. And besides, the dictionary has already carried out this work for you. NB the OED doesn't even give champagne (the wine) an alternate spelling in UC. Ericoides (talk) 19:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
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- again, from Agne's talkpage Legally, and therefore to all practical purposes, there is no generic term "champagne". If you're not referring to sparkling wine from the Champagne region, you're not talking about Champagne and should be calling it "sparkling wine". Other sparklers with protected designation of origin, like Cava, follow the same protocol. --mikaultalk 20:18, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
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- dittoOh yes there is. It's the word (generic level) that describes Heidseck, Moët et Chandon and Krug (species level). I made no mention of wines from outside the Champagne region. When describing wines from Champagne, champagne is quite obviously a generic term. I refer you to the OED: "champagne: White (esp. sparkling) wine from Champagne". Ericoides (talk) 20:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- Nope, those are sparkling wines (generically) and Champagnes (specifically). The old colloquial use will probably pass out of use eventually; I see the dictionary use as proceeding etymologically from a time when any Champenoise-style wine called itself "champagne". Over the years the French have established the right to retain geographical names to describe their wines using their proper noun derivatives and set them apart from wines of a similar style, and they're still fighting.[1] In our article on that self-same product it should clearly be used as a proper noun and capitalised. An example by way of contrast would be sherry. It's plain "sherry" not because it isn't a protected name – the PDO is very vigourously enforced – but because there's no such place as "sherry"; it was never a proper noun, only a wine style. In any case, regardless of legal enforcement, when referring to the likes of Gorgonzola in its article it should be – and is – always capitalised. Parmesan, Burgundy and Port are all capitalised in their article in this context. No matter how you cut it, regardless of ownership of the name, in an article on sparkling wine from the Champagne region of France, the only reason to use the lowercase version is when it's in quotation marks referring to the way non-genuine versions were once described. --mikaultalk 23:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
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- Mick has pretty much hit the nail right on the head. This article is about Champagne - the sparkling wine that uniquely comes from the Champagne wine region of France. This article is not about "champagne" the sparkling wine style used (illegally in some parts) by some producers. To talk about "champagne" is to talk about something completely different then the officially defined, protected designation of Champagne. As I noted above, it is essentially a trademark like Pepsi or Budweiser. You wouldn't get much traction going to those articles arguing that it should be "pepsi" and "budweiser". AgneCheese/Wine 02:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
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- Well I'm not noticing pepsi spelled lower-case in the dictionary. You might like to note that the OED has "port n. ~ (wine), strong dark-red (occas. brown or white) fortified wine of Portugal". Port with an upper-case "p" looks as pathetically pushy as champagne with an upper-case "c", but I guess in an encyclopedia in which trees and animals are in upper-case it's what one has come to expect. Incidentally, I can't recall hearing of a place called Port where port is made. If you say, "It's Oporto" then I'll just reply, "Sherry is from Jerez" and we haven't got anywhere at all. Secondly, if champagne is the species, then is Krug a sub-species? I don't think so; sparkling wine is the family, champagne the genus and Krug the species. Any taxonomist can see the structure. But it's all getting a little too big end of the egg vs small end of the egg so I'll bow out. Nickhh (above) has provided the only really sane response to my initial point. Ericoides (talk) 04:30, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Pink champagne ? anything on this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.108.16.189 (talk) 05:19:15, August 19, 2007 (UTC) -
- Please read the Rosé article on Wikipedia. Cheers. Zanusi 10:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Attribution note Some content in the varieties section are from the merged articles Blanc de noirs and Prestige cuvée. AgneCheese/Wine 05:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC) [edit] Thoughts on assessment This one seems more B than not but some extra thoughts are welcomed. Here are my thoughts... -
- The referencing needs to be improved throughout the article.
- I think there can be some work down with the structure and flow of the article. For instance, the "Varieties" section starts by talking about grape varieties and then segways into different wine styles in a less than smooth transition. The serving Champagne & Champagne etiquette section could be merged together. The bubbles section seems out of place from the rest of the Champagne production etc. The health benefits and alcohol absorption should probably be merged.
- In terms of comprehensiveness, there doesn't appear to be any major section lacking which is what tilts it more to the B side. The only thing that would be a major concern is the absence of a viticulture section. AgneCheese/Wine 22:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] What about England? From what I have heard, the english (technically) invented champagne. They imported green, flat wine from Champagne and added sugar and molasses to start it fermenting. They also developed the strong coal-fired glass bottles and corks to contain it. As the records of the Royal Society show, what is now called méthode champenoise was first written down in England in 1662. The French added finesse and marketing flair, but it wasn't until 1876 that they perfected the brut style. Any more info on this? Not the best source ever, but I found this information in "The Book of General Ignorance". It contains information suitable for use on the TV program QI. By the way, I am a newcomer (this is actually the first thing I have written on Wiki), so please do not bite me if I have done something against Wikipedia policy! --Timdpr (talk) 16:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC) - Since Champagne is well-known and equated with luxury and so on, many want to say that they were before Champagne in producing this style of wine, including the sparkling Limoux wines from further soouth in France. As to the overall history of sparkling wine (rather than just Champagne) I thought that some of this information would be available in the article Sparkling wine, but I can't see it there. Some history is included in the Champagne (wine region) article, but not that much about the production method. I believe you're partially right in that a light "fizz" initially occurred and was appreciated due to second fermentations in buyers' cellars, both in England and e.g. Paris. In those days wine was shipped and sold in barrel. The English definitely had an influence on the production possibilities of today's Champagne in another day, because they were the leaders of glass manufacture during the era when bottled wine became more common. The first strong, thick-walled bottles were (mass)produced in England.
A minor point, the brut style only refers to a quite dry wine, not the rest of the production process. At least during the 19th century, the standard style was quite sweet, probably because of a combination of sugar being luxurious in those days and the ability of sweetness to make a mediocre wine more palatable. Tomas e (talk) 08:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC) -
- There's an excellent history of Champagne here which says that sparkling Champagne was being drunk in England well before 1662. The website is French, is run by on behalf of the champagne producers and cites it's sources. Richerman (talk) 15:02, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
This article talk page was automatically added with {{WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . Maximum and careful attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories , but mistakes may happen... If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot (talk) 03:18, 4 July 2008 (UTC) [edit] What is Blanc de noirs? The Varieties sections states that 'Blanc de noir (white of black) Champagne is pressed from 100% Pinot Noir or black grapes', the Blanc de Noirs section states is it made from 'either Pinot Noir, Pinot Meunier or a blend of the two', which is it, a quick google seach is not conclusive. --Stefan talk 06:30, 5 December 2008 (UTC) - Oxford Companion to Wine says that 'either Pinot Noir, Pinot Meunier or a blend of the two' is correct. Camw (talk) 06:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks, I updated the page. --Stefan talk 07:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
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