This page should have been moved here, not cut-and-pasted. Sabine's Sunbird 22:22, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Maybe. Feel free to correct it.

--Striver 23:05, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 example 2 Incorrect Translation 3 Edited line 10/28/06. 4 Bidah in Worldly Matters 5 Recent extreme vandalism of this article 6 Bid'ah in worldly and religious matters 7 Did he say? 8 Original Research and Primary Sources

[edit] example

[1] quotes saying (Arabic: صدق الله العظيم ) as Bid'ah it's so common that many muslims believe it's part of hte religion. --The Brain 12:54, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

This article was very one sided. That was not fair for the readers. Now it is more representing of the current situation. Shafi3i 16:45, 18 September 2005 (UTC).

This article should say that bid'ah does only apply to issues of faith and not wordly issues.--Striver 06:46, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect Translation

This hadith was misinterpreted by an incorrect translation: "The one who innovates a good innovation in Islam has its reward and the reward of those who would practice with it until the Day of Judgement ­­without lessening the rewards of those who practice with it. The one who innovates the innovation of misguidance, would take the sin for it and the sin of those who practice with it until the Day of Judgement ­­without lessening the sin of those who practice with it".

The original words include the phrase, whoever "sanna sunnah hassana" - whoever REVIVES a good sunnah, they he has the reward of those who practice it until the Day of Judgement. For example, the hadith Narrated by Abu Mahdhoorah in Sahih Muslim regarding the athaan: Allaahu akbar, Allaah akbar, ash-hadu an laa ilaah ill-Allaah, ash-hadu an laa ilaah ill-Allaah, ash-hadu anna Muhammadan rasool-Allaah, ash-hadu anna Muhammadan rasool-Allaah. Then he should repeat, ash-hadu an laa ilaah ill-Allaah, ash-hadu an laa ilaah ill-Allaah, ash-hadu anna Muhammadan rasool-Allaah, ash-hadu anna Muhammadan rasool-Allaah. Hayya ‘ala al-salaah – twice; hayya ‘ala’l-falaah – twice; Allaahu akbar, Allaahu akbar, Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah.

Narrated by Muslim, 379. If you notice, the athaan only has "Allahu akbar" twice in the beginning and not four times (which has ALSO been narrated in Authentic hadiths). They are both authentic forms of athaan. So if someone were to (using wisdom of course) teach this and have others give th athaan like this they would be reviving a sunnah that has been forgotten. Remember, for every Bid'ah (innovation) that comes, it steps on a sunnah. So it's not proper to say that who ever puts a good bid'ah has the reward, linguistically this is an incorrect meaning!! The words lean to the meaning of the statements above regarding reviving a sunnah. For the complete fatwa regarding this specific example about the athaan refer to:

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=21376&dgn=4 and http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=10458&dgn=4

[edit] Edited line 10/28/06.

I changed the following line: "Most Sunni differentiate...", to this: "However, there are also many Sunni Muslims who differentiate...". I felt the change was appropriate, as the claim that "most" felt a certain way didn't have a source for that. I think it's more balanced now. In retrospect, I forgot to sign this comment here when I initially made it almost five months ago. MezzoMezzo 21:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bidah in Worldly Matters

I notice the fact tags on this section. I will add the references soon so please leave it to me. ZaydHammoudeh 22:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent extreme vandalism of this article

Recently, Rafchile committed a long string of edits to this article which can be viewed in the history of the page. These included the deletion of all external links and their replacement with just one, the entire trashing of the old version of the article which was still being worked on and its entire rewriting, and the insertion of extremely biased views based on opinions from a Sufi perspective, which is a blatant violation of the official Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy. I will be watching this article more closely from now on, and if this article is vandalized again either as a joke or to push a certain point of view as Rafchile did, and through one large trashing of the article or a long series of "stealth edits" also as the recent vandalism was done, I will request that this article be locked and report the offending users for vandalism. This is a professional site and is not a forum for individuals to present opinions and/or biased information to the public as though they are fact. I will request that everyone interested in working on this article please be a mature adult and review all official Wikipedia policies on editing, vandalism, building a good article, and keeping a neutral point of view. MezzoMezzo 21:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bid'ah in worldly and religious matters

Knives were present in the time of the Prophet Muhammad, therefore they are not a bid'ah.

Musical instruments are not a pure evil bid'ah, they can be used for good purposes and there is a difference of opinion in Islam regarding music.

This article is biased towards the Salafi-Wahaabi P.O.V. Bid'ah in worship was not always rejected, many companions did some things differently from their own free choice. Imam ash-Shafi'i allowed for "Sayyidina" to be added in the adhan, for example.

The external links, too, link to Salafi-Wahaabi, anti-Sufi websites.

A few points:

• Yes, the knives thing is a little weird. We could probably come up with a better example.
• There is no difference in opinion regarding music in Islam. This is only something that has come up recently and primarily in Muslim countries that are secularized or have heavy Western influecne. All four madh'habs agree that music is forbidden.
• Salafis and Wahhabis aren't the only one's who acknowledge that bid'ah is incorrect in Islam' for fourteen centuries, the ulema of all four madhhabs have agreed that bid'ah, specifically bid'ah in regard to ibaadah (worship) is what the Prophet referred to when he said "every new matter into the religion is innovation, every innovation is misguidance, and every misguidance is in the hellfire". Only the most extreme of people, primarily (but not all) Sufis, disagree with this.
• Please bring proof for this slander against the companions of Muhammad, as the notion that they ever brought anything into the religion that Allah or his messenger did not is extremely offensive from an Islamic perspective, not to mention historically inaccurate.
• As for the sites, only one of the links is critical of the general position of Sufism on this matter and only one of them refers to itself as Salafi. The links are apt and representative of what the consensus has been for over a thousand years.

Regardless, I do thank you though for discussing it here first; most people (Sufis and non-Sufis) who oppose the traditional view tend to do a series of stealth edits or just trash the entire article. I would advise to create an account to correspond with though, as being anonymous brings up questions of who it is posting comments, making edits, etc. An account makes things easier. MezzoMezzo 18:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The Qur'an does not ban music, and given music's significance, it is difficult to believe that the Qur'an would not ban music, if music were wholly unislamic. Furthermore, being that allah is man's creator, he must have implanted in man the tendency to enjoy music, and hence, man must be divinely meant to enjoy music, under at least some circumstances. Music has been permitted by some muslims, since Islam began. That many of music's most adamant Islamic protectors may be from countries which are less conservative, does not negate the fact that those protectors exist, that they believe in Bid'ah, and that in order for this article to have a nuetral point of view, it must not claim that all new musical instruments, can only do evil.-Yarn 10/9/07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.252.86.240 (talk) 14:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

That is your opinion; you are entitled to it and it is indeed valid. Keep in mind that article talk pages are not for discussing the merits of article subjects, but rather how accurate article content is. That musical instruments are haram is the majority view held by traditional Muslim scholars and the article reflects this. There are opposing views under the external links section where you can find these differences of opinion; in regard to your suggestion, however, I think WP:FRINGE and WP:REDFLAG are relevant here. MezzoMezzo 15:31, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

firstly your view regarding musical instruments makes no logical sense. Allah has placed a desire for alcohol in many human beings, that does not make it permissable. There are many hadith that directly state that musical instruments are detested and hated by the prophet muhammed SAW and that they are impermissable in islam. This idea that " the qur'an doesn't say it" is likethe same arguement teh western media makes regarding hijabs. Musical instruments are definitely impermissable although not bid'ah, you cannot call them innovations, tehy are simply HARAM!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.211.126 (talk) 19:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The trouble with your POV is that in contemporary (and perhaps earlier) Islam, this is and perhaps was controversial. (See [2], [3], [4][5].)68.83.179.156 (talk) 01:43, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Did he say?

Allegedly Mohammed said:

“Whoever innovates something in this matter of ours [i.e., Islam] that is not a part of it, will have it rejected.”

Is this part of the Qur'an or is it in fact a Bid‘ah? ... said: Rursus (bork²) 10:26, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

it is from the hadith and no it is not a bid'ah, bid'ah doesn't mean anything not in the qur'an, it means anything not in teh qur'an and SUNNAH

81.153.211.126 (talk) 19:21, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Original Research and Primary Sources

I have added a tag indicating the possibility of OR in this article since practically all references come from Primary Source material without any expert secondary interpretation thereof. References should focus on secondary rather than primary sources.Vote Cthulhu (talk) 03:55, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

• That's not what the policy says: Primary sources that have been reliably published... may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them... Without a secondary source, a primary source may be used only to make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is verifiable by a reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge. Most of the assertions in this article are simply descriptive claims. Where there is an element of interpretation such as the section labelled According to Shi'a Islam, secondary sources are quoted. andy (talk) 07:32, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

One of the first lines of policy says: "All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source..." This article bases itself on editor interpretations of primary sources almost exclusively without reference to secondary sources. That sounds like a pretty clear case of Original Research to me.Vote Cthulhu (talk) 19:23, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Please give some examples from the article - I can't see anything which looks like an interpretation by an editor that's not based on a secondary source. andy (talk) 22:01, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

References 1-4, 6-17 and 19 are all primary source material: Qur'an and hadith literature. I do not know 5, 18 or 20, and the rest are websites. Again, no expert secondary sources here.Vote Cthulhu (talk) 02:13, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

You've missed my point. Primary sources are OK provided they're only used descriptively. The references you list are all used descriptively, for example “Whosoever originates an innuendo in this matter of ours [i.e., Islam] that is not a part of it, will have it rejected.” [1] [2]. The only interpretive part of the article is According to Shi'a Islam which is based on a secondary source. You should challenge any aspect of the article that you feel is OR, and after a suitable time perhaps even delete it, but it's not appropriate to label the whole article as OR because it isn't and nor does it seem to have been intended to be andy (talk) 08:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

By way of example, the article begins by stating an unsourced definition of its subject matter, and then immediately justifies this definition through reference to the words of Muhammad (i.e. primary source). The article is not using primary sources in a descriptive manner, but rather is using specific references from primary sources in order to justify a particular definition of "innovation" as "innuendo." This entire article requires a basis in secondary source material, but instead simply refers to the primary sources to support the claims of the article's editor. Therefore, OR in support of a particular POV.Vote Cthulhu (talk) 22:58, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Another important point to consider in relation to Original Research and the use of primary sources is that the article is entirely in English, and includes direct quotations written in English; however, the sources cited are Arabic sources and so CANNOT be indicating the quotations as written. If a translation is being cited, then the translation ought to be fully referenced. If the editors are making their own translations, then this is clearly an OR problem.Vote Cthulhu (talk) 01:52, 27 April 2009 (UTC)