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[edit] Bobby McFerrin

Surely Bobby McFerrin must be credited for his contributions and publicity of the artform very early on - in the late 1980's. The following text is from the Wikipedia article on Bobby McFerrin: He is known ... for his ability to use his voice to create sound effects and in vocal percussion, like his recreation of a bass and drums simultaneously, which he achieves by singing while tapping on his chest. Ackerjerr (talk) 21:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable phrase

which many consider the fifth element - what does this mean? RickK 21:24, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

The fith element of hiphop... beatboxing which comes after graffiti spraying, DJing, MCing, and breakdancing. ~ bbglas007 14:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of "beat box"?

What exactly is a "dildo cannon"? Is it dayna? A sara clollice? A cannon that shoots dildos? you will never know, it could be all of the above for I know of. — mjb 18:49, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I always thought it was a drum machine, non? Onlyemarie 19:59, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

But does that usage originate from somewhere else? — mjb 20:05, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

I found the following on a human beatboxing forum:

"The term 'beat box' was used as slang for the non-programmable drum machines that were first called rhythm machines. For example, the Roland TR Rhythm Series such as the TR-33, TR-55 that were produced in 1972. Later it was used to refer to a particular line of drum machines - particularly the Roland CR and the later TR series with the Roland CR-78 appearing in 1978.

However, the first rhythm machine was the Wurlitzer Sideman that was made between 1959 and 1964, and this did come in a large box - so it's possible that the term "beat box" was used to refer to this machine."

Onlyemarie 20:14, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Oohh, check it out. I found a better reference, The Oxford Dictionary of New Words, for which I will provide some free advertising — mjb 21:02, 5 May 2005 (UTC) …

      beat box  noun Also written beat-box or beatbox (Music) (Youth Culture)                    In colloquial use among musicians, a drum machine (an electronic              device for producing a variety of drum-beats and percussion              sounds as backing for music or rapping: see rap); hence a style              of music with a throbbing electronic drum-beat which often also              accompanies interludes of rapping. Also, another name for a              ghetto blaster.                            Etymology:  Formed by compounding: a box which produces the              beat.                            History and Usage:  The beat box, which is essentially a              percussion synthesizer, became a popular alternative to the              conventional drum kit during the early eighties, when              synthesized sounds in general opened up new possibilities for              many bands. It was really the increased popularity of rap and              its spread outside the Black music scene that led to the              development of a distinct style of music called beat box by the              mid eighties. A beat box is an expensive piece of equipment, so              it is perhaps not surprising that some youngsters tried to              imitate the sound without actually using a beat box; this led to              the development of a new action noun beatboxing, the activity of              making percussion noises like those of a beat box using only              one's mouth and body.                                How do you compare an album like that to...the sparse                  beat-box music and intensely engaging call-and-response                  served up by today's leading rap group, Run-D.M.C.?                                    New York Times 9 Jan. 1985, section C, p. 14                                    Booming out of beat boxes on the street and bounced to                  in aerobics classes, the 'Big' beat sounds like the next                  equal-play anthem for American women.                                    Washington Post 19 Mar. 1985, section C, p. 1                                    They usurp rap and beatbox, scratching their own                  frequently wild guitar marks on top.                                    Q Mar. 1989, p. 72 

I don't think that Justin Timberlake is verifiably credible for spreading the art of Beatboxing; Artists like Bobby McPherrin have done much more in that direction.

^----It's Bobby McFerrin not McPherrin. Justin Timberlake played a major role in exposing the art of beatboxing to a wider audience. Angelicmusic 23:37, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't this mean then that the article needs to be titled "Human Beatboxing" or have a disambiguation reference. (Even if there's no article on the Beat Box machine?) Because right now all variations of "Beat Box" get redirected here. Ileanadu (talk) 19:30, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] United Kingdom

I noticed that the 'United Kingdom' section was generally a mess and did my best to copy-edit and clean it up. I know almost nothing about beatboxing, so I would appreciate it if someone more knowledable could look the edits over and possibly cite some sources. --Ethethlay 08:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Backbeat diagram and SBN

Is this traditional notation diagram at the top of the article really nescessary? It looks awkward and silly and isn't very meaningful; it would also give an unaquainted person the idea that beatboxing is just pronounciation of "boom boom chick" in english, rather than reproducing sounds. I have removed it and edited the definition.

I also don't think SBN is important enough to warrant such a major inclusion right at the top of the article; beat boxing notation is not widely accepted. I have moved this reference to the "Internet Presence" section of the article and removed the link to a specific forum page, which requires registration to view. It should be noted that this whole section stinks of advertisement for humanbeatbox.com and should probably be replaced. --Kineticturtle 07:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IPA transcription?

Is it possible to represent the production of sounds using the phonetic sciences or by IPA? I'm just intrigued, since this is a phonetic curiosity. John Riemann Soong 07:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it would be. I'm a beatboxer and a linguistics student, and I've considered using the IPA as a method of transcribing beatboxes, or at least a base method since many of the sounds are not part of normal human speech. I'll consider writing an article about it Dr-ring-ding 17:28, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I wrote something along these lines a while ago: http://www.mcld.co.uk/beatboxalphabet/ - but the big problem is that, as mentioned above, many of the sounds, and especially the important aspects of the sounds that differentiate them and make them realistic, aren't covered by the IPA. So you can use IPA as a base, but it's not necessarily the clearest or most compact way of representing things. (For example, many beatbox tonal sounds involve the lips, tongue, and voice, so a decent IPA transcription would have to involve two or three symbols connected together using tie-bars.) --mcld (talk) 22:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Imiterio Ruiz

What is the source for this information? On Humanbeatbox.com the origins of beatboxing are seen in more African culture, from Jazz music to barbershop quartets. See http://www.humanbeatbox.com/The_History_of_Beatboxing/p2_articleid/27 for more info. 165.123.174.163 09:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

My gut feeling is that somebody's pulling our leg. Dr-ring-ding 17:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The John Mayall Issue

Why on earth would one mention John Mayall so extensively as a beatbox innovator when there was a long history of groups doing vocal percussion in country blues, doo-wop, and jazz scat that predated what he did in terms of style and form? I don't mean to criticize Mayall, because he's a brilliant performer, but I seriously doubt he would lay claim to inventing beatboxing or pioneering the genre--he always was clear that his stylistic roots were firmly planted in African American blues music and as such he would have heard the style of vocal percussion being done by plenty of artists. The roots of contemporary beatboxing are certainly more woven through the fabric of the African American culture than through a single recording by a white British blues musician. If the article is on vocal styles emulating synthesizer beatboxes, Mayall certainly wasn't trying to emulate that and should be dropped altoegether, if it's about recorded vocal percussion then you need to get some deeper links to the history of the style.

[edit] Kenny Beats

It looked to me like "kennybeats" almost certainly contributed all this information himself, and a google search for his name returns four hits, which are all either unrelated or also contributed by kenny himself, so I removed the Vancouver section. Dr-ring-ding 17:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

== HAHA == (I use bot proxies btw) Quality Standards??? ROFL, this article is better quality than most crap articles on this pathetic excuse for an online ecyclopedia. LOL. It amazes me how you lot devote so much of your time for **nothing** to this tripe whilst simultaneously making a few people who own the damn thing very rich indeed. But hey, if wasting your time so that some ungrateful fat cats can buy theirselves a Bentley turns you on, then go right ahead. I've read some of your own articles, and frankly, your idea of "Quality" is not exactly what I'd call it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.21.5.190 (talk) 20:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

Actually, Wikipedia doesn't really make much money at all. See any advertising?

[edit] Importance of various beatboxers mentioned

When a beatboxer is a redlink and there are no links provided, it is difficult to verify whether or not they are an important, notable, or influential part of beatboxing. What are the thoughts on removing redlinks without sources? My feeling is that there are enough demonstrably notable beatboxers that it wouldn't hurt the article to remove all redlinks without sources. janejellyroll 06:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some answers

Personally im a beatboxer and i find these articles full of biased and self-praise many of the "beatboxer mention" are not even well known]

I think you are right. Turns out that I was the very first person to create this entry on Wikipedia. This was before Wikipdeia had reached a critical mass and I wasn't versed in the encyclopedic style and protocol at the time. I just entered in beatboxing from my perspective, which is all a writer can do really. It has been through the global community's continuous edits and their clashing that will hopefully bring the biggest perspective to the table. Thanks.

and yes beatbox was a loop machine thus the word human beatbox human replicating beatbox machine

and the earliest replication of beat was based on the roland 808 machine

^---You've deleted notable beatboxers that you may not have heard of, but many in the United States have．It is interesting how you particularly delete my contributions when yours are done amatuerishly. Mine were taken from credible online sources, yet yours come from your own opinion and poor excuse for writing. In fact you're making up beatbox terms. If you're going to contribute, do so credibly. Angelicmusic 23:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Please explain the term"making up beatbox term" and please understand your fact before making biased view

Notable they may seen to you , in comparision to the beatbox scene as a whole they play little or no part in the revolution of beatboxing and the history of it

and if your so sure of your "trustworthy" source please reference them to moi

Thanks

[edit] America's Got Talent & Butterscotch

Worthy of a mention for bring the artform to a mass audience. Benjiboi 07:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

She finished in the final four but didn't win. Benjiboi 19:00, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deleting Whole sections.

Very recently, every single piece of information about UK beatboxers was edited out of this page. I attempted to put some of this back in and it got removed again.

Does somebody have something against the UK or was there something wrong with how it was written? Human beatboxing has a massive following in the uk and the biggest beatboxing website in the world is UK based so it deserves to be in this article. If it was removed due to the way it was layed out then please say so we can sort out the layout and wording of it :-)

--BOZE-- (humanbeatbox.com)19:38 11th Sept 07

• UPDATE*

So is nobody big enough to own up to it?

Shameful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.172.162 (talk) 14:18, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Butterscotch Beatboxer

I don't know how to update the main page, but here is some information about female beatboxing:

In the summer of 2007, a 20 year old female from Davis, California was featured as a finalist on NBC's prime time show "America's Got Talent." This largely caucasian community is at last proving it is capable of producing multi-genre talent. Here is the link to her show, although she came in second, she is someone who will likely influence the music world in the future.

http://www.nbc.com/Americas_Got_Talent/episodes/season2/205/americas_got_talent_205_03.shtml

Pandora62 05:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed: Beat box pattern image.

The simplest and most stereotyped beatboxing pattern, in drum set notation, imitating the bass and snare drums. However, this pattern may be unrecognizable in more elaborate and skilled beatboxing.

"removed image as per WP:PROVEIT without a verifiable source for this it looks like a possible WP:HOAX"

While the burden of evidence may lie on me you actually have to challenge the material. What's wrong with it? Hyacinth (talk) 03:13, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Non notable source reads:

"Boom chick, boom boom chick” is the pervasive backdrop of beatbox, a completely unplugged genre involving no machines, keyboards or computers. The only instrument is the human body: mouth, throat and chest, imitating the sounds of drumbox and turntables to the extent that you’re hard put to distinguish it from the real thing.

This is not attributed to any author; the website is in actual fact a mini guide to the city of Barcelona.Despite this the editor presents the following information as fact:

The simplest and most stereotyped beatboxing pattern, imitating the bass and snare drums, in drum set notation.However, this pattern may be unrecognizable in more elaborate and skilled beatboxing.

This is beyond WP:SYN it's fiction in its current state. Please find a verifibale source for this claim. Semitransgenic (talk) 12:25, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand your conspiracy argument, but you say "beyond WP:SYN" because WP:SYN in no way applies. Hyacinth (talk) 17:55, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no conspiracy, there is only policy. Semitransgenic (talk) 18:06, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

editor has again replaced item.

Source reads: Lights go up onstage at the Steppenwolf Theatre, revealing one man. The bass drum lays down the initial beat. The snare adds a layer of back beats. A boom, chick, boom-boom, chick, punctuated by an explosive blow to the crash cymbal. It’s an orgy of percussion, and it’s all coming from a single mouth.

editor writes The simplest and most stereotyped beatboxing pattern, imitating the bass and snare drums, in drum set notation.However, this pattern may be unrecognizable in more elaborate and skilled beatboxing.

Source material does not support the editors assertion. Please provide specifc support. Semitransgenic (talk) 18:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Please quote the relevant policy. Hyacinth (talk) 21:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

For relevant policy see WP:V particularly WP:BURDEN. Semitransgenic (talk) 05:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

What is a typical beatbox pattern? Hyacinth (talk) 19:29, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Until there is a verifiable source that can be used to establish the validity of the assertion we cannot answer this question; to do so would be WP:OR. Semitransgenic (talk) 05:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

You have failed to improve the article through removing mention of patterns and sounds and you offer no alternative. Hyacinth (talk) 11:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

you have failed to provide a verifiable source, as per WP:VERIFY, so have not demonstrated, using notable sources, that the image is representative of "the simplest and most stereotyped beatboxing pattern". Also, the statement "this pattern may be unrecognizable in more elaborate and skilled beatboxing" is subject to WP:OR & WP:NPOV. Adding unsourced material does not improve an article and is subject to WP:OR policy, as such, it can be removed legitimately. Semitransgenic (talk) 12:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

to clarify please note: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed.Semitransgenic (talk) 12:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Please see the information regarding co-operation in Wikipedia:Civility. Hyacinth (talk) 00:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I would ask you to state the manner of my uncivility as per the list on WP:CIVILITY. I think your accusation is both unfair and unfounded.Semitransgenic (talk) 07:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The paranoid fashion in which you react to edits, comments, and questions indicated to me that you may find the guideline at Wikipedia:Civility helpful. You described my good faith edit as a possible hoax. When I asked you to explain this by saying I did not understand your conspiracy theory you assumed I was accusing you of engaging in a conspiracy but did not explain how my edit could be a hoax. When you finally quoted relevant policy, note that it was different policy than you originally pointed me to. Hyacinth (talk) 23:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

excuse me but I came to article edit blindly, I was not aware that it was 'your' edit, which is what you seem to be suggesting, so perhaps it's your paranoia that should be of concern here. I knew nothing about the specifics of the topic or it's edit history, and simply believed it could be a hoax, but it transpired that it was someones serious attempt at contexualising the subject matter within a musical framework. Despite the seriousness of intent, it is not excused from the various policy breaches outlined above. Also, please note, this is not a forum, guidelines exists so time is not wasted teasing out edit criteria. Semitransgenic (talk) 11:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Ladies and gentleman, let us not get worked up over something so trivial!

As a beatboxer myself I can assure you that the stereotypical pattern is, in fact, b t p t b t p t (b = bass drum, t = hi hat, p = snare).

Regarding the image, even though I understand Wikipedia about as much as I understand women, it's clearly POV since it's saying it's the simplest pattern which is not necessarily true.

All in all, don't get upset - take a leaf from Bobby McFerrin, "don't worry be happy"! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.122.54 (talk) 10:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] OR

I'm removing these two sentences from the intro:

Therefore it could be said to be a genre of a cappella music although it can be employed alongside other instruments. It may have some historical connections with other vocal traditions such as scat singing and puirt a beul.

Sure seems like OR, not to mention weasel-y. "could be said?" "may have?" If it has been said to be an a cappella genre, then we need a source. If it does have those historical connections, then they have been documented somewhere. These are interesting assertions, but at the moment they're OR. Please feel free to put them back in (minus the weasel words) if such sources can be found. SixFourThree (talk) 15:58, 12 November 2008 (UTC)SixFourThree

I think you're right about the second sentence. I don't know of any documented connection with those traditions. (There is a problem with beatboxing though, there's very little documentation of any sort.) So I'm happy for that sentence to go. But the first sentence is just a kind of categorisation, isn't it? It's not that people have claimed beatboxing to be a form of a capella, just that a capella is a sort of loose-fitting umbrella subject...? What you reckon? --mcld (talk) 09:00, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

My real objection was to the wording, which makes unproven and weasel-y claims. "could be said" is a major warning flag. I actually like the intro's wording as it stands now - Beatboxing is a form of vocal percussion.... The vocal percussion article discusses its relationship to a capella. This is more specific than randomly introducing an umbrella subject and consequently is, I think, more helpful. SixFourThree (talk) 18:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)SixFourThree

I think the two sentences were an attempt to provide some much needed history for the article. Obviously it needs to be developed better and properly sourced. A much better job of providing some history, including the connections to a capella and other music traditions, is done at this website: http://www.humanbeatbox.com/history/p2_articleid/27

Although, that website also skips some important information, such as was pointed out above, the influence of Bobby McFerren, whose first album came out in 1982 and Hambone. See http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/430900.html

Also, although the human beatbox article cited above references the connection of beatboxing to Blues techniques, which in turn developed from the music of slaves, who did not have instruments available to them, it doesn’t explain why that was. Some of those reasons are described in: http://www.usvitourism.vi/culture_history

Also, if beatboxing involves percussive body sounds, see http://www.pbs.org/riverofsong/teachers/ext2.html#hambone and

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.lasso?id=2074

"Although the riff used in this [song] is ascribed to Bo Diddley (the "Bo Diddley Beat), it didn't originate with him. It goes back to West Africa -- American slaves patted the rhythms on their bodies as they were denied access to their traditional drums (many pre-Civil War slaveholders were afraid of them being used for communication). "Hambone" became part of the African-American musical tradition."

Beatboxing may also have been influenced by Spike Jones (not Spike Jonze), Mel Blanc and others who created sound effects with their vocalizations.

Anyway, I’m just kvetching at what seems like a tendency for youngsters to believe history began in the 1980’s and that it all sprang up originally at that time with no antecedents. Ileanadu (talk) 19:16, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, so at the risk of being assailed, I'm going to venture a perspective that at present, this article is a mess. This isn't meant to disparage any of the contributors, who have altruistically committed their time to helping spread the word about this artform. But there's a reason beatbox is commonly referred to within hip-hop as the lost 5th element (the 4 elements of hip hop: graf writing, b-boying, mc-ing & dj-ing). It has to a certain extent, remained an underground artform, and while it is present within the mainstream culture, there is a dearth of documentation. That having been said, there are some serious historians of beatbox: Kid Lucky in New York, Tyte in the UK, Bee-Low in Germany, Each in San Francisco. These are people with an encyclopediac knowledge of styles, techniques, artistic chronology and genealogy etc. As it stands, I suspect most of them would agree that the page as written simply is not particulary *accurate*.

In the interests of transparancy and citation verifiability, I'm writing this from the perspective of being an organizer for Vowel Movement, San Francisco's oldest and original beatboxing crew. I don't know whether that makes me more suspect or less. But for what it's worth, my main agenda is promoting the artform, and the artists who produce it. If I can, I'll take a closer look soon, and see if i can make some suggestions/edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Widowsill (talk • contribs) 11:52, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Pink Floyd

Pink Floyd did it in the 1960s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTfDUyUkVYE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.253.167.142 (talk) 15:49, 23 October 2009 (UTC)