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This is a controversial topic that may be under dispute. Please discuss substantial changes here before making them, making sure to supply full citations when adding information, and consider tagging or removing uncited/unciteable information.

Archives
*Talk:Balhae/Archive 1: July 2003 – September 2006. Talk:Balhae/Archive 2: October 2006 - March 2007

Contents 1 Archived 2 Request for Mediation taken by Armed Blowfish and Daniel Bryant 3 WP:NCGN Violation 4 Map caption: 'Balhae territory at the height of properity' 5 Mohe vs Malgal 6 Yalu vs. Amrok 7 Why isn't this article at "Bohai"? 8 Balhae is Korean 9 The Identity of Mohe people

[edit] Archived

PLEASE ADD THE MAP!!! WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BEAUTIFUL MAP OF BALHAE!!! UPDATE AND MAP IS NEEDED. THANK YOU. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Koreanstudy1 (talk • contribs) 13:40, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

What happened to the map??? Please add the map. Deeply appreciated. MAP IS NEEDED!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Teacherjj1 (talk • contribs) 10:21, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I've now archived this page since it was almost 230 kb long and Wikipedia guideline suggest archiving pages larger than 32 KB. Deiaemeth 08:44, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

• I've archived material prior to April of this year. zadignose 03:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Mediation taken by Armed Blowfish and Daniel Bryant

We strongly recommend private mediation. To request an account on the private Mediation Wiki, please click on the mail link in my signature. Include "Goguryeo" somewhere in the subject, e.g. "Private wiki account request for Goguryeo mediation". If you do not have email enabled on your account and are unable to use the mail link, please click on my username in my signature and let me know on my talk page. You should also read the Mediation Committee policy on confidentiality. This message is being posted elsewhere. Thanks, Armed Blowfish (mail) 19:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:NCGN Violation

There are numerous violations of WP:NCGN in this article. WP:NCGN states that 'When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it'. Manchuria is an archaic names which describes the modern geographic region of NE China in the period from 1635 to 1945. In the modern context, that name is called NE China, and should be used instead of Manchuria. Using Manchuria to describe the region out of its relevant historical period of 1635 to 1945 is therefore a violation of WP:NCGN. Will the editors here please correct the violations.
Wiki Pokemon 03:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map caption: 'Balhae territory at the height of properity'

What is 'properity'? Mumun 無文 14:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Prosperity probably. I guess the map needs some rework. Cydevil38 22:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll replace it with the modified version that says "Balhae's territory at its greatest extent". Cydevil38 00:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Looks good! ㅋ ㅋ Mumun 無文 11:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mohe vs Malgal

In its current form the article uses both "Mohe" and "Malgal" for the same entity. I would prefer "Malgal" as that more closely approximates the pronounciation of the Chinese character-phoneticization of the time of the article. Comments? Doc Rock (talk) 19:15, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I support this name change. Not only have Koreans been calling the people once up North "Malgaljok" (말갈족/靺鞨族) for centuries, they are closely related to the development of Parhae than to some other obscure Chinese polities. Undoubtly under the sphere of Korean history so the respective name should be used. Kuebie (talk) 19:35, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Mohe, Malgal, and 靺鞨 mean the same thing, but the Wikipedia article name is under Mohe. That is why "Mohe" is used here. You can't just change it because it's called "Malgal" in Korea. If you wish to change the article name in the English Wikipedia, you should follow the procedure at WP:RM.--Endroit (talk) 20:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Malgal is more correct way to describe them, even Mohe or Malgal themselves called Malgal rather than Mohe.

It should be the majority of historical sources about the Mohe/Malgal are in Chinese, and they largely did not live in what is now Korea. I do not believe that using "Malgal" here or in the Mohe article is appropriate. It is sufficient to note the different pronunciation in the languages and move on. --Nlu (talk) 22:34, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Then use the proper Jurchen word for replacement of Mohe, Mohe doesn't sound anything like local to real Jurchen people; it's Chinese therefore require replacement. Mohe or malgal wasn't even Chinese begin with. Korsentry 04:34, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Yalu vs. Amrok

I've changed hearts and eyes considered only the land south of the Yalu as their .. to hearts and eyes considered only the land south of the Amrok... This is because the original was written by a Korean author and not a Chinese person. Koreans don't call the river Yalu; that's a Chinese name. We call it the Amrok. I just wanted to be very clear on this because some people think that the river Yalu is called Yalu by everyone around the world; sorry, that isn't the case. Idoversuperego (talk) 13:48, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Amrok is actually more native name of that river, Yalu is name that used later times, only by the Chinese.

Either way Yalu is the international used name now. Amrok would be used only by Koreans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.199.40.35 (talk) 12:08, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Why isn't this article at "Bohai"?

The founders were Mohe, not Korean. The only historical records - whether of Chinese or native origin - are written in classical Chinese. It seems a stretch to me to say that "the founder, though Mohe, served the Goguryo, and the Goguryo are sort of Korean, kind of, and so therefore the Bohai must be Korean".

Is NASA a Nazi German institution because Werner von Braun previously served the German Nazi regime? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Your example is seriously flawed because the founder's origin from Malgal is not a hard fact. Just like NASA, located in the US and serves the states, Balhae was located on the Korean peninsula and has been regarded as one of the kingdoms of Korea by scholars. The state consisted of Koreans and Malgal people too. Besides, if your logic were so right, British people have become French or Danish or German because their country was ruled by several kings from such the foreign countries? Please refrain yourself from pushing CPOV here again like you did on ume article. --Appletrees (talk) 13:11, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Parhae founded by Malgals? Since when? Don't tell me you actually think the Malgals, who backstabbed Koguryo, are the direct decendents of the Manchus ...and that somehow makes them Chinese enough that this article should be moved to the god awful sounding "Bohai."

Please take your fantasies elsewhere. Kuebie (talk) 01:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The capital of Bohai is located in modern (and traditional) Chinese territory. Its founder was Mohe - and even if that is disputed, what is the evidence that he is Korean in the modern sense of the word?

The nation, as far as it can be determined, wrote its own records in Chinese, not ancient Korean (if such a thing exists).

Appletrees - what is CPOV, and can you point out what you are referring to at ume instead of making wild and blanket accusations?

You say Bohai is "located on the Korean peninsula" - it is not. It ruled from what is today China, a portion of its territory being in what is today Korea. By your argument, China is also Korean because various Chinese dynasties ruled territories which are today a part of Korea. It is a flawed argument.

You say Bohai is regarded as a "Korean kingdom". I haven't seen such an argument except in sources of Korean origin.

Kuebie, I don't understand what you are saying. What evidence do you have that the Mohe "backstabbed Goguryo"? What evidence do you have, in fact, that Goguryo is "Korean" in the modern sense? And I do not understand what you are saying when you say the Mohe are the direct descendants of the Manchus at all. The Manchus arose several centuries after, they cannot be the ancestors of the Mohe.

Can one of you present a coherent list of the arguments for why this article is at a Korean pronunciation of the Chinese name? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Northeast Project of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences is what you're holding now.

I wrote the past tense, not present as writing "was" located on the Korean peninsula. So please carefully distinguish other people's comment. I also haven't heard such claim except you bringing up here. Perhaps what you need the most is logical argument here. The mention of the ume is actually not a sole opinion and your argument was shown and pointed out as such by some people. --Appletrees (talk) 00:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

There are still no or very little evidence to support Balhae was exclusively Mohe people, today there are no or very little Mohe people in current location of past Balhae boarders, certainly China can not claim it as their as Mohe aren't Chinese, after the Qing Empire resign, most of Mohe were pushed off and evntually destroyed by Russian expansion at far Eastern Siberia and Manchuria.

If you study Balhae's artifacts and relics it carries strong Goguryeo influence because of high class people in Balhae was Goguryeo ethnicity, not a single Chinese ethnics were living within Balhae's territory. Balhae should be put under Korean history because of founding factions were survival of Goguryeo & Baekje not Mohe or Chinese. Mohe were just another ethnicity that lived under Balhae's dominion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Consoleman (talk • contribs) 11:25, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Balhae is a shared history between what's today's Korea and Chinese Republic. It's a history of Manchuria, and of neither nations. Therefore the article shouldn't be biased towards either side. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Huang Tai Ji (talk • contribs) 01:28, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Since when, how about inviting Russia into sharing Balhae's history as well then? Russia confirmed it was part of Proto-Korean speaking cultural history, even Japan, EC members and America confirmed it should be part of ancient Korean history. Case over, Chinese have nothing do with Balhae culture or its people.--Korsentry 05:43, 14 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KoreanSentry (talk • contribs)

[edit] Balhae is Korean

First, let's see the facts.

Which racial and ethnic category do Mohe(Malgal) fall into?? Simply, the first Korean Unification came under Gwanggaeto the Great, by his standards, who he considered one people, one blood. Gwanggaeto the Great, as a Goguryeo leader, united his Goguryeo with the Mohe, Malgal, Shilla and Baekje as "One People." With so many walls that he had captured and conquered within these peoples regions, he obviously did not go past the "Great Wall of China."

Second, what is Great Wall of China?? Today and by historical definition, a wall or a fence is set to distinguish itself or themselves from their neighbors. The Great Wall, that stretched so far East and West on Northern part of China, and also by historical records of Sui Dynasty, considered the GokTurks and Goguryeo people as "Northern Barbarians." Thus, the ancient Chinese clearly seperated themselves from the Northern people.

Third, what was beyond the Great Wall of China?? Beyond the Great Wall of China, there was initially GokTurks and Goguryeo to the North and Shilla and Baekje to the East. All three kingdoms, Goguryeo, Shilla and Baekje used Chinese Characters even though they were ethnically Korean. Then, why do the Chinese historians claim that only Goguryeo(that had the strongest millitary power of the three) is their history? Why not the other two? Old Japanese(Yamato Civilization) mostly consisted of Kanji(Chinese Characters) as well before Hiragana was made, yet, the Chinese historians do not apply their same theory into claiming that all these Kingdoms were infact, Chinese.

Fourth, what is happening elsewhere?? On Youtube and other web sources, many CCP (Chinese Communist Party) members are blatantly posting up distorted scientific facts about Korean DNA. In every world encyclopedia it clearly says Koreans are under the Altaic group. Both DNA testing lead by Han Jun Jin and by Taiwanese DNA testing, it is clear that Koreans are of the Altai Mountains/Siberia origin, yet, many distorted videos are all over Youtube and many distorted links lurk the internet, claiming that Koreans are South Asian. If China rightfully claims that Goguryeo and Balhae history is Chinese, why make these distortion on scientific facts as well, very obviously and blatantly.

Fifth, tackling the tradition of the Altaic people. Turks, Mongols, Mohe(Malgal), Khitans, Balhae, Goguryeo, Goryeo and Shilla people were Cavalry Archers. Unique warfare to the categorized and defined as Altaic people. Traditional, horse riders that used bow and arrows in battles. These groups are defined as Nomadic and Tribal compared to the Chinese, who were settled.

Sixth, traditions, folklores, myths and cultures passed down to which modern day people? Food tradition, for example "Bean Paste(DwenJang)" was a unique emergency food source for the Goguryeo and Balhae people. "Wrestling(Shi-Reum)" is passed down to Koreans from Goguryeo and Balhae times, and a similiar culture is shared with Mongols as well. Not in China. Also, tales about the achievements of the great generals, great kings, religious practices, etc. were passed down to Koreans, not the Chinese. For example, the story of "Ondal the Fool."

Seventh, I can go on with this all day. Instead of making just simple and nonsensical claims, please bring forth the evidence that Balhae and Goguryeo is Chinese history. Stop repeating the same things over and over, like "Goguryeo and Balhae wrote Chinese Characters" because all three ancient Koreans kingdoms did, so did Japan. Do not try to settle us down by saying Balhae history belongs to both Korea and China. Here is a great example, The Ottoman Empire stretched far into Northern Africa and Eastern Europe, and because these conquered territories are now Greece, Balkans, Egypt, etc. This does not mean Ottoman history is Greek or Balkan, the glory is given to the Ottoman Turks. It is the same with Napolean. Napolean conquered many neighboring European nations, this does not mean the neighboring nations can claim the greatness of Napoloean, the glory belongs to France. Thank you.

Ryunbaik (talk) 03:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

The Greal Wall began construction in very early times and does not limit Chinese settlements beyond the wall. Settlements including Lo-lang (CHN) / Nangnang (KOR) reaching into the pennisula.

You will have to explain (5) - since when was Korea a major "Cavalry Archers" force instead of a "settled" civilization? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.199.40.35 (talk) 12:20, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] The Identity of Mohe people

A question that was never raised here was the exact identity of Mohe people, namely Sumo Mohe of which Dae Jo Yong supposedly belonged to.

Recall that Dae Jo Yong returned to present day Tonghua, Jilin and not to Pyongyang(Koguryo capital) after escaping from his Khitan captivity. So we can assume that Tonghua is Dae Jo Young's ancestral native homeland, where he or his father was born and grew up in before joining the Koguryo army(Dae Jo Yong's father as recorded was a Koguryo army general at the time of Koguryo's fall)

So exactly what used to be at Tonghua? Fuyu(aka Buyeo). In other word, Sumo Mohe are remnants of Fuyu/Buyeo kingdom that collapsed and was absorbed by Koguryo in 494 AD. But ethnically speaking, Koguryo people themselves are ethnic Fuyu/Buyeo people who spoke the same language and shared same customs as Fuyus(Koguryo people were not called Koguryos, they were called Fuyus in history books), who are now known as Sumo Mohes around the time of Dae Jo Yong.

Now it makes perfect sense why the remnants of Koguryo people were willing to follow the leadership of Dae Jo Young, they were one and the same ethnically, sort of like the relationship between present day Germans and Austrians(Different country, but ethnically the same)!!! This much is stated in Bohai's diplomatic document to Japan in 727 AD, which stated that "Bohai recovered most of Koguryo's territory and follows the customs of Fuyu"... Bohai kingdom followed the customs of Fuyu because Sumo Mohe are the remnants of Fuyu.

back from 22:05, 26 June 2009 for 24 hours, ip and my accounts only edited twice. is that no biased to use ancient Asian kingdom, but not to use Chinese or korean kingdom? Gzhao (talk) 23:45, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

LOL! So now Malgal are of Buyeo origin? Make up your mind people! This is the exact reason why the Chinese nationalists have zero credibility whatsoever. You people make up your own history (as evident in this original research bs) and then decide to reside in that made-up fantasy. Don't 'assume' anything.

Wonder why the Khitan adopted Goguryeo's administrative system? Because they were under the dominion of Goguryeo. They lived in it. Same with the Malgal, and a bunch of other insignificant tribes. Malgal are in no way shape or form related to Buyeo. They were a nomadic people, back when Koreans were building city-states. Different names, language, culture, heck they were even used as slaves in Balhae and Goguryeo. There are only two significant events the Malgal have shown up in history; changing of alligiances to the Tang from Goguryeo and the aid of Balhae (in which the Malgal followers were awarded with titles). Akkies (talk) 01:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Malgal or Mohe people were not Buyeo tribe, Buyeo already died out and became part of Goguryeo and Baekje by the time Malgal rise in the north, and even during height of Malgal history, they tends to follow ancient Korean customs.--Korsentry 08:03, 21 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KoreanSentry (talk • contribs)

You wish you can claim Altaic as Chinese. The Khitans considered Balhae (well knowing it was found by a Goguryeo general) as the same people. By genetic evidence, the Balhae, Khitans, Mongols and Koreans share the Northern Asian DNA originating from the Altai Mountains/Siberia. Even if you were to claim Mohe as Chinese, that entire area was Northern Asian ruled to begin with. Nomadic Tribes, different from settled Chinese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryunbaik (talk • contribs) 05:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)