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The scientific community considers astrology a pseudoscience or superstition.[1][2][3][4][5][6] The above is a bit narrow scope. The law considers it a pseudoscience / superstition in most countries, and I am a member of the jurisprudent community and consider it such. Why do only the 'scientists' as 'scientific community' is linked to get to have their views represented? Given that things only pass into law as an expression of the belief and views of electorates put forward by ministers of parliament one could deduce that 'the people' of each nation consider it a pseudoscience or superstition. Therefore wouldn't the correct approach be to state that it IS a pseudoscience or superstition but is considered a belief system to those who believe in it? 114.76.205.101 (talk) 23:48, 16 October 2009 (UTC) - You need to reference whatever you add to a reliable source, which is what the above does.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 00:08, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- The legal situation of those practicing astrology in Great Britain became difficult following the "Witchcraft Act of 1735" and the "Vagrancy Act of 1829". To the best of my knowledge, these laws are still on the books. Accordingly, those practicing astrology in the UK are still liable to be branded as 'charlatans, rouges and vagabonds'. The legal status has nothing to do with the above definition. The only thing the scientific and judicial communities share is a profound ignorance of astrology and an associated emphatic negative bias which essentially concludes that astrology is not worthy of careful scientific inquiry. Odin 85th gen (talk) 15:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- Charlatans and frauds would be an accurate description of astrologers. Science has investigated the claims of astrology, and found them lacking. Why should we accept your claims without evidence? It's worse than that actually, we have evidence (as a result of "careful scientific inquiry") that astrology is bunk. (Please don't attempt to answer my question, it is rhetorical.) This is not a general forum Odin, so please keep your personal views out from now on, and the rest of us will try to do the same. If we can find references for the laws opinion, I see no reason not to add it. Verbal chat 15:47, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
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- The ignorance of the scientific community of astrology is a demonstrated fact. It has also been aserted by a world authority on the Philosophy of Science, Paul Feyerabend. He includes the following in a learned article about the subject:
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- A "demonstrated fact" which has been demonstrated WHERE? If astronomers have established accurate orbital calculations for the major bodies within our system, and scientists over a wide range of fields have not produced anything showing an direct influence on "fate"/behaviour, etc., AND they have shown that the claims made are for INCORRECT planetary positions, then shurely shome mishtake has been made by making this claim without any sort of reference?85.158.137.195 (talk) 14:56, 21 November 2009 (UTC)Lance Tyrell
- "When a representative of the BBC wanted to interview some of the Nobel Prize Winners (who signed the statement of 186) they declined with the remark that they had never studied astrology and had no idea of its details."
- For balance, this should be inserted in the article. Odin 85th gen (talk) 17:53, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
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- We could certainly add a Legal status. I hesitate to add the legal community to the scientific community in the above sentence because, at least in jurisdictions with something like the Daubert standard, the legal opinion is derived from the scientific opinion. - 2/0 (cont.) 18:04, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit] If and how to mention Vedic/Eastern views I've brought this discussion over here from Artw's talk page, per his request. In case the context is unclear at first, refer to this section's heading, which I've tried to make as self-explanatory as I could. Cosmic Latte (talk) 10:28, 16 November 2009 (UTC) Hi, I'm wondering if you'd explain what it is, exactly, that you feel is wrong with the lead as I've been putting it? Thanks, Cosmic Latte (talk) 16:35, 14 November 2009 (UTC) - Haven't we had this discussion before? the edits attempt to represent science as being devided into "western" and not western, with the not western science being aproving of astrology. This simply is not true - science is science. Artw (talk) 16:54, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- I would think that the very existence of "Vedic science" contradicts this view. I didn't invent the term; it's been around for quite some time. Even in the West, different people mean different things by the term "science" (which in its broadest sense, as you may well know, means something like "systematic study"): Natural scientists mean empirical hypothesis-testing, while computer scientists and mathematicians ("mathematics" being related to a Greek word meaning science/study) deal with more symbolism and abstraction (e.g., algorithms), and social scientists use all of the above and more (e.g., history). Even "astrology" (sharing the -logy suffix with words like "physiology" and "geology") literally means "science/study of the stars", while its Indian counterpart (Jyotiṣa) means "science of light". Perhaps science is science, but science is not always modern science (which, having emerged in in the 1800s, if glossed over as "science" would disqualify the likes of Newton and Copernicus as scientists!). And the overwhelming majority (90%, if I recall correctly) of an enormously populous nation (one out of every six people alive) subscribes to the distinctly non-modern science of Jyotiṣa, which is further categorized (not by me, but by what our old friend WP:DUE calls a significant minority of the entire human race) as one of the Vedic sciences. In fact, even if its formal name were "Hocus-pocus malarkey", it still would be a reasonably prominent belief system, and one that would seem sufficiently on-topic to note. Perhaps there is a better wording, which could more clearly indicate that Vedic science is not a modern science; I figured the basic antonyms "Eastern" and "Western" would do. But in any case, there is a community, even if it is not the modern-scientific one, that regards astrology as a legitimate branch of systematic inquiry (i.e., science), and surely this community is substantial enough to merit early mention. Plus, given that China, which is roughly as populous as India, has its distinct astrology, one could say that Eastern astrological studies (I don't know if the term "science" would apply as well in China as in India) are relevant to up to 1/3 of all human beings. Perhaps the problem with the lead was that it gave off the impression that modern science and Vedic science were as comparable methodologically as they are etymologically. This impression clearly would be false; it is not an impression that I, being acutely aware of the etymology, received, but perhaps it is an impression that other readers might get. I'd be happy to work towards a phrasing that would acknowledge such a prominent belief system, but would not tacitly convey (as much pseudoscientific discourse, admittedly, does) that this belief system is upheld by the principles of the modern science that did (thanks to the Renaissance and other factors) happen to develop in the West. I've no interest in turning any article into a battleground for some epic, Wikipedia-wide science-pseudoscience war; I'm not trying to take the side of anyone or of anything, for my interest lies in the explicitly editorial task of conveying an encyclopedic balance between semantic precision and semantic nuance. I'd be glad to try to come up with a better phrasing, and would be interested in any suggestions that you may come up with as well; however, I ask that, when considering reactions to my edits or responses to my comments, you bear in mind that my intentions are not partisan or adversarial. Thanks, Cosmic Latte (talk) 18:10, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Query: Why does Vedic Science link to a disambiguation page instead of an article on Vedic Science? Is there even such an article? Angryapathy (talk) 15:07, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- To me, it seems more like a list/stub than an actual dab page. Sort of like a less-developed analogue to the Fields of science article. Cosmic Latte (talk) 13:16, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Sanskrit terminology for astrology I saw this content was removed regarding Sanskrit terminology for asrology. I'm not familiar enough with this subject matter to determine whether it is important and relevant so I wonder if it should be left out, restored elsewhere in the article, or put back where it was? But I thought it might be worth discussing so I'm posting it here for consideration. The more ancient Indian term for astrology is Jyotish, or jyotiṣa in Sanskrit, meaning "light, heavenly body". ref name=JyoVed "Vedanga Jyotisha". http://www.nhsf.org.uk/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=182&func=view&id=7631&catid=2. Retrieved 2009-11-18. "Eastern and western scholars suppose that the treatise was written some 3400 years ago." /ref ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:40, 20 November 2009 (UTC) - I've been reverting it because it needlessly crowds the lead, and is largely irrelevant. In the box on the right there are no less than 9 different types of astrology (Babylonian astrology,Hellenistic astrology,Egyptian astrology,Hindu astrology,Western astrology,Muslim astrology,Chinese astrology,Sidereal astrology,Tropical astrology) - I don't think they should be mentioned in the lead, This article is about Western Astrology and frankly the only person adding this continuously is a Vedic Science believer. Whereas three editors have removed it. Phil153 (talk) 08:04, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
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- I think most editors here will disagree with the following statement by Phil153 that "This article is about Western Astrology" The title of this article says Astrology and even if an English Wikipedia entry it should fairly reflect its origins, wherever they may be. Should an article about Mathematics only focus on Western math? If this or other editors would like this article to focus exclusively on the form of astrology that developed from Greek times in Europe and later America, it would need to be titled accordingly as the English word astrology is a catch phrase for all types of astrology and significantly re-edited. A better approach would likely be to create a new article about Western astrology. As for the ad hominem attacks on me as simply some "Vedic science believer" is not only rude and in bad faith but irrelevant. As I think this is a mute issue, I am placing the Indian information back in the lead where it belongs. Odin 85th gen (talk) 10:25, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- The title of this article is the Western word for astrology, and you're inserting the etymology of Jyotish in the lead, which has its own article with its own etymology. That doesn't make sense to me, especially in the lead. I've reverted it. I've made my case plainly: there are numerous words for Astrology going back to the beginning of history; why include this one? And why in the lead? It's merely extraneous information that doesn't belong in the lead. Three separate editors have reverted your contributions; and this is the third time you've readded them. Please review WP:3RR and WP:Consensus. Phil153 (talk) 11:11, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
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- And I apologise completely for mentioning your frequent vedic science editing, it was slightly rude of me. I have no evidence to suggest that your desire to continually re-add Vedic terms to the lead of the astrology article despite opposition has anything to do with a desire to promote that said "science". Phil153 (talk) 11:19, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
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- This might be a good time for other editors to weigh in on this issue. Odin 85th gen (talk) 12:33, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
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- The onus is on you to justify why it should be included in the intro, while other non-western forms of astrology should be excluded. Could you also explain why you are so passionate in adding references to indian astrology? It may give us a better idea of where you're coming from. MisterTin (talk) 16:52, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- Agree, I currently see no reasons that justify adding this to the lead. Verbal chat 17:07, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
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- MisterTin, as I´ve noted before, there is a clear bias in the article. This is reflected in either a subconcious cultural bias of English speaking editors such that they consider Greece the origin of any or all knowledge. Alternatively, this may be an innocent lack of knowledge of the fact that astrology, like many strands of knowledge, have their origins before and beyond Greece. The literary record is clear on this. To highlight the Greek origin of the English word of astrology, perpetuates this misleading presentation of the origins of astrology. Indian astrology is the oldest documented form of astrology, much older than also e.g. Chinese astrology. By the way, I could add that CosmicLatte is another editor who is trying to correct for this imbalance in the presentation. Odin 85th gen (talk) 18:05, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
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- It doesn't belong in the lead - the section on Vedic astrology exists and Vedas is already mentioned in the lead, quite enough. We seem to have one editor edit warring (that last self-revert keeps Odin w/in 3rr) for what appears as POV pushing. Accusing your fellow editors of bias or ignorance, as you just did, is unacceptable. Vsmith (talk) 18:56, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
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- No reason to get indignant, Vsmith, there is a long scholarly debate on the independent origins of Western versus Indic cvilization and it has been blemished by biases. We see a microcosm of such impulses here. Edwin Bryant, Lecturer in Indology at Harvard University wrote a book in 2001 exposing "...the extent to which both sides of the debate have been driven by political, racial, religious, and nationalistic agendas." The aim of his book is to restore balance to the scholarship, which is something to emulate here. We cannot expect to eradicate it unless people are made aware of such latent tendencies. Interestingly, in trying to right the imbalances, I have been accused of such biases! Life never ceases to amaze and amuse. [1] Odin 85th gen (talk) 15:35, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
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- Then this appears to be a semantic misunderstanding. Astrology is used to mean greek astrology. When we say indian astrology, we mean indian beliefs that happen to resemble greek astrology. Hopefully that clears things up for you. MisterTin (talk) 19:08, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
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- You are being completely illogical. The article makes no pretense about being about Western astrology only, but discusses all traditions. Indeed, it is a universal article about astrology. Still you suggest it should be described as only Western in the lead.Odin 85th gen (talk) 01:34, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
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- No need for personal attacks. Your grievance is with the English language, not with me. MisterTin (talk) 17:17, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Western astrology A decision has been reached by a few editors to exclude from the lead information showing the multicultural roots of astrology, especially those showing its origins outside of the Western world. Moreover, the statement has been made that this article only deals with Western astrology. If this is so, I propose this article be rewritten and edited such that it fits this new narrower definition. It would then be retitled as Western Astrology. Another article can then be written based on material currently in this article dealing with other traditions herein as well as a summary of the new Western astrology article. Such an article could then be titled Astrology and would have as a goal to describe astrology as a global and historical phenomen. The new article would of course also be in English, unless, of course, there is a policy implied by these editors which states that English Wikipedia is restricted to deal only with phemoena in the Western world. Of course, the easiest solution, and which I favour, is to just keep this article as is and widen it to account for the complete historicity of the subject matter. Odin 85th gen (talk) 18:26, 21 November 2009 (UTC) - Sounds like you are proposing a WP:POVFORK, and your summary is inaccurate. Verbal chat 18:48, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
- You have summed up inaccurately what I am saying. Indeed, I am not for creating a fork, but to keep the article, but make it a truly comprehensive article, free of this tiresome Western bias. Odin 85th gen (talk) 19:11, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
- Before this discussion goes any further, you'll need to provide references for your proposed taxonomy. MisterTin (talk) 21:24, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Can you consider the proposed add-on sentence on its own merit, please? The English word astrology derives from Greek αστρολογία : ἄστρον, astron, "constellation, star"; and -λογία, -logia, "the study of", meaning the study of the stars. A synonym for astrology is the more ancient Sanskrit term jyotiṣa (ज्योतिष) meaning the science of light. [1] Odin 85th gen (talk) 23:09, 21 November 2009 (UTC) - Please consider WP:DEADHORSE. Your proposed addition merely clutters the lead with the etymology of a word from one culture out of many, and not even the one that started astrology. If we add that etymology then why not add the etymology of "紫微斗数" and "ilm al-nujum" and "དཀར་རྩིས" and ...? Phil153 (talk) 23:23, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
- FWIW the actual greek article has a terminology section, but this one doesn't at the moment. The article might improve from having one. Even then I'm not sure that Sanskrit is necessarily desirable there either, but it might make some sense, maybe.- Wolfkeeper 02:23, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- The effort to update the article with relevant information is not a deadhorse issue. The etymology (ज्योतिष) was there to balance the Greek one but it could be dropped. Your assertion that India was not the culture "that started astrology" is a matter of dispute. The flowering of the Indus Valley civilisation in the third millennia is known to precede the second millennia Babylonian civilization. In fact, the rise of Babylonian astronomy/astrology in 1600 B.C.E. coincides with the exodus from the Indus valley caused by the drying up of the Saraswati river around that time. The literary record also shows that astrology in India emerged millennia before it did so in Greece. The sentence cites the earliest known literary record of astrology (Jyotish Vedanga) dating back to at least 1200 to 1000 B.C.E (pre-iron age), but likely earlier. Some recent debate has revolved around the issue if Greek horoscopic astrology was of independent origin or not. Odin 85th gen (talk) 09:10, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- It's a non sequiteur, it shouldn't go in the lead. Verbal chat 09:51, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
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- That use of the term seems to be oxymoronic. How can different cultural expressions of the concept of astrology, occuring as they do over a timespan, be a non-sequitur? Odin 85th gen (talk) 10:04, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Due to differences of view or lack of consensus on the inclusion of the terms used in different cultures to describe the concept of astrology, I propose to rearrange parts of lead, move disputed description of the word astrology to the relevant sections in the main body of the text and also remove citation to article by Rob Hand, as it is not supporting the claim made. The proposed edit to the article shows this change, but may be reverted in total or part if there are strong feelings that this is not an improvement. However, please note that this issue should not be considered settled until editors are in agreement on a consensus. Odin 85th gen (talk) 08:48, 24 November 2009 (UTC) [edit] Of horoscopes and hot sauce I agree that Western practices probably are most prototypical of the English word, "astrology". It would be a mistake for the lead to ramble on and on about Jyotiṣa and the like, because the contents of the lead would then be disproportionate to the contents of the article body. But I think that a complete omission might be an instance of "undue non-weight" (or something like that). If you'll pardon the huge shift in subject matter, consider the Spanish loanword, "chalupa". Just as English-speakers might readily associate "astrology" with Anglo-European practices, so would Spanish-speakers most easily associate "chalupa" with a dish that bears hardly any resemblance to the well-known Taco Bell creation. But it would be counterintuitive for one to omit Taco Bell from the chalupa article--even from the lead, if that were a fuller article. It strikes me as even more peculiar to omit Jyotiṣa entirely from the lead (of this article)--because, while Taco Bell just sort of decided to co-opt "chalupa", the words "astrology" (lit. "study of the stars") and "Jyotiṣa" (lit. "science of light") have been semantically similar for ages. So I propose that at least a very brief mention of Jyotiṣa in the lead would be appropriate, while acknowledging that such a mention should not gloss over the enormous methodological differences between modern science and Vedic science. Cosmic Latte (talk) 13:46, 24 November 2009 (UTC) Come to think of it, I think I've found the perfect spot for such a mention: The lead already includes the line, "Astrology has played an important role in the shaping of culture, early astronomy, the Vedas..." (emphasis mine), so I don't think there ever has been an explicit consensus against noting Eastern tradition in the lead. I think a very brief mention of Vedic science or Jyotiṣa could fit into the paragraph in which this line is found. This is not the same paragraph that mentions "the scientific community", so I don't think it would lead to the aforementioned "glossing over". Cosmic Latte (talk) 18:57, 24 November 2009 (UTC) - Astrology, if defined as in the lead to be "a group of systems, traditions, and beliefs which hold that the relative positions of celestial bodies and related details can provide information about personality, human affairs, and other terrestrial matters" most certainly did not influence "the Vedas". Only quacks like David Frawley make such claims. It has no basis in fact. The purely etymological definition, however, does fit the bill, as the Vedic people, just like many other ancient groups, did "study the stars", typically for calendar-related reasons. And in that sense, "astrology" was exactly the same as "astronomy" back then. So it would be equally true, equally correct and equally accurate to say that "astronomy influenced the Vedas". What is definitely not true is the notion that astrology in the modern sense "influenced the Vedas". Any claim of that sort will require proper sourcing from peer-reviewed academic literature, not pop-gurus like Frawley. (You may, however, state that he has made the claim. This is not the same as basing the veracity of the apparent "fact" on his say-so.) rudra (talk) 15:51, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
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- Astrology is an integral part of the ancient Vedas, linking man and the stars via the law of karma in a wide ranging cosmology of spiritual development. Aurobindo said that ancient vedic civilisation was steeped in symbolism which modern man may find difficult to understand. Astronomy was the method to track the movement of divine bodies across the sky, which astrology offered an interpretation for. The vedic myth of the Moon's nodes, Rahu and Ketu, the mortal enemies of the Sun and Moon is a testament to this. The Moon's nodes were astronomical devices to track solar and lunar eclipses but also have astrological meaning in the horoscope. To call astrology a calendar system is therefore wrong. To equate astrology and astronomy as influences in the Vedas is therefore equally wrong, even if the two developed hand in hand. David Frawley is a scholar and believer of the vedas, including astrology. Even if his views on the Aryan invasion theory have offered a needed challenge to the lax consensus of western academians, he is not a quack...except perhaps to a duck :). It is interesting that the views on Vedic culture are very two sided. On the one hand we have the eastern practitioneers which know something of the essence of this civilisation and can make thoughtful assessments but do not present it in academic garb. On the other we have the western academians who know little of the essence of this civilisation but something about the historical artifacts and present the information with thee legitimacy of academic precision but are vulnerable to arrive at naive conclusions. Clearly the two sides need to be reconcilded. With that in view, scholars of both the vedas and of vedic anthropology could be cited in the article. Odin 85th gen (talk) 08:59, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
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