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I saw this comment on the Anarchism discussion. I think it is more relavant here so I am pasting it here. "Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Anarcho-capitalism. Comments requested." [edit] Origin of term & controversy Someone keeps deleting the fact that the term was coined by Murray Rothbard, and the ambivalence or outright rejection that he and many others expressed about using the term "anarchism" which has always had an anti-capitalist meaning 69.228.251.134 (talk) 15:32, 24 October 2009 (UTC) - It's already in the article. And please don't try to push some POV about anticapitalism. Anarchism qua anarchism isn't anticapitalist. Leave your Infoshop capitalism-hating at Infoshop, please. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 20:25, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
I've protected the article for 72 hours due to the edit war. Please discuss the substance of the edits here; further reverts may result in blocks. Skomorokh, barbarian 20:34, 24 October 2009 (UTC) - The fact that the term "anarcho-capitalism" was coined by Murray Rothbard is very important and should be right at the beginning of the article. Also important is the word "arguably", which was added for 2 reasons. First, to express the rejection among traditional anarchists of the relatively new term "anarcho-capitalism" as part of the (always anti-capitalist) anarchist tradition. Secondly, because the very person who coined the term, Rothbard HIMSELF admitted that it WASN'T anarchism http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard167.html
- "We must conclude that the question "are libertarians anarchists?" simply cannot be answered on etymological grounds. The vagueness of the term itself is such that the libertarian system would be considered anarchist by some people and archist by others. We must therefore turn to history for enlightenment; here we find that none of the proclaimed anarchist groups correspond to the libertarian position, that even the best of them have unrealistic and socialistic elements in their doctrines. Furthermore, we find that all of the current anarchists are irrational collectivists, and therefore at opposite poles from our position. We must therefore conclude that we are not anarchists, and that those who call us anarchists are not on firm etymological ground, and are being completely unhistorical." --Murray Rothbard
- That these footnoted and uncontroversial facts have, in the space of a day or so, been called "POV" "vandalism" and reverted reflexively without discussion should tell us something about the ideological fanaticism inhabiting these pages. 69.228.251.134 (talk) 20:57, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
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- That of which you speak is in the article already, and does not need to be at the beginning of the article. The only reason to put it at the beginning is to push the POV that anarchism is anticapitalist. Such a discussion has been done to death on Wikipedia already, and it has been decided to not "kick anyone out of the tree". Please leave your idealogical fanaticism at Infoshop. Thank you.
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- Further, when you look at the time the article was written, Rothbard had not yet fully embraced the term anarchism. A few years later, he had. So whatever your supposed point is with the quote just doesn't materialize. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 21:22, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed with Knight, this is simply POV-pushing. Soxwon (talk) 23:55, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
After the aforementioned hysterical claims of "POV" "vandalism" to describe perfectly reasonable and sourced edits, no one should take the new accusations seriously. We all know that both Soxwon and BAAWA are die-hard right wing-capitalists. So the final decision should rest with someone who doesn't have such a stake on the issue. 69.228.251.134 (talk) 07:36, 25 October 2009 (UTC) - Thank you for admitting that you're POV-pushing. Continuing to POV-push will result in you being reported and possibly banned. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 11:04, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
It's YOUR POV and false accusations that will get you reported and/or banned.69.228.251.134 (talk) 18:45, 25 October 2009 (UTC) - When you edit anarchocommunism, anarchosyndicalism, and all the rest in the lead to say that they are terms coined by whomever, then you can legitimately have your edit. Until then: all you have is a POV. And I made no false accusations, either. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 20:41, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
It's become clear that 69.228.251.134 is going to continue to push his disruptive edit. The philosophy section of the article already states that Rothbard's idea was the first well-known version. There is also a criticism section and a section on anarchocapitalism and other anarchist schools. No anarcho-whatever article has "anarcho-whatever is a term coined by X" in it. There is simply no reason for 69.228.251.134's edit. Granted, it is at least sourced. But it just has no place in the article. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 12:20, 31 October 2009 (UTC) [edit] RFC for lede Dispute over wording of the opening statement. Soxwon (talk) 02:42, 1 November 2009 (UTC) - It's not me who is pushing a disruptive edit. The fact that the term "anarcho-capitalism" was coined by Murray Rothbard is very important and should be right at the beginning of the article. Also important is the word "arguably", which was added for 2 reasons. First, to express the rejection among traditional anarchists of the relatively new term "anarcho-capitalism" as part of the (always anti-capitalist) anarchist tradition. Secondly, because the very person who coined the term, Rothbard HIMSELF admitted that it WASN'T anarchism http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard167.html
- "We must conclude that the question "are libertarians anarchists?" simply cannot be answered on etymological grounds. The vagueness of the term itself is such that the libertarian system would be considered anarchist by some people and archist by others. We must therefore turn to history for enlightenment; here we find that none of the proclaimed anarchist groups correspond to the libertarian position, that even the best of them have unrealistic and socialistic elements in their doctrines. Furthermore, we find that all of the current anarchists are irrational collectivists, and therefore at opposite poles from our position. We must therefore conclude that we are not anarchists, and that those who call us anarchists are not on firm etymological ground, and are being completely unhistorical." --Murray Rothbard
- Since traditional and historical anarchism has always been anti-hierarchical and against both, capitalism and the state (as shown by the literature and the coiner of the term "anarcho-capitalism" himself) the explanations in the lead should grant as much importance to the anarchist critique of "anarcho"-capitalism, as it would to a movement that labeled itself "anarcho"-statist i.e. a movement that shared some critiques of capitalism with traditional anarchists, but which emphasized as its goal, the creation all around the planet of, say, "voluntary nation-states". So the question, as was obvious from the beginning, is not whether or not these facts are mentioned somewhere in the article, but whether or not their importance means they should be in the lead.69.228.251.134 (talk) 02:56, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
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- No anarcho- page mentions in the lead who "coined" the "term" being discussed, so why this edit is so important as to be the first one to do so must be demonstrated. Frankly, it is pure POV-pushing being disguised as a legitimate edit in order to marginalize anarchocapitalism. Recall: it has been decided to not kick anyone out of the tree here on Wikipedia as far as the whole anarchist "dispute". The article in fact mentions that there is a "dispute" over anarchocapitalism and the rest of the "anarchists". It does not belong in the lead--not unless 69.228.251.134 now wishes to do the same for each and every anarcho- article on Wikipedia. The fact that 69.228.251.134 has only done this for anarchocapitalism speaks to the fact that it is POV-pushing and should not stand.
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- And that 69.228.251.134 has consistently misrepresented the truth (e.g. saying that there was a discussion on the talk page when the timestamps showed that there wasn't, saying on his talk page that he didn't perform 3 reverts in 24 hours when the timestamps show him performing 3 reverts in just under 19 hours) speaks to the fact that he is not doing these edits in good faith. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 11:56, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
My thinking on this is guided by two important considerations: First, this is an article about a concept and associated works/movements. It is not an article about the word. Second, we should make some effort to follow the focus of secondary sources about what issues are prominent. Who coined the word is not a prominent issue in most literature I've read on the subject. So on the basis of those two factors, I see no reason for who coined the word to be something that is discussed in the lead. --RL0919 (talk) 17:09, 4 November 2009 (UTC) |
